Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:51 PM - INSURANCE (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
2. 01:03 PM - Re: INSURANCE (John Vormbaum)
3. 01:11 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Robert Steele)
4. 01:14 PM - Re: INSURANCE (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
5. 01:19 PM - Re: INSURANCE (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
6. 01:20 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Jimmy Rodriguez)
7. 01:20 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
8. 03:16 PM - Re: INSURANCE (MOEMILLS@aol.com)
9. 03:20 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Bill Williams)
10. 03:33 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Fran Myers)
11. 04:39 PM - Re: INSURANCE (CloudCraft@aol.com)
12. 05:04 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Bill Bow)
13. 05:07 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Tylor Hall)
14. 06:37 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Barshalom@aol.com)
15. 06:38 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Barshalom@aol.com)
16. 08:15 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Fran Myers)
17. 08:22 PM - Commanders For Sale (ProgSearch@aol.com)
18. 08:36 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Tom Fisher)
19. 09:28 PM - Re: INSURANCE (CloudCraft@aol.com)
20. 10:01 PM - fuel (Bill Bow)
21. 10:01 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Bill Bow)
22. 10:06 PM - Re: fuel (John Vormbaum)
23. 10:13 PM - Re: fuel (CloudCraft@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
HI KIDS.
I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to Jerry
Hill,
Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are working on.
Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and would
probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a generic
training device.
Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
"warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be commiserate
with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are considered the
"Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
Message 2
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Capt. J,
That's something I would be interested in and would benefit from. I need to
get a new policy quickly, so the timing is perfect!
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
> availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
> Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are
working on.
> Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
> attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
> probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a
generic
> training device.
> Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
> "warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
> with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are
considered the
> "Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
>
>
Message 3
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert Steele" <bob.steele@kzf.com>
JB,
I would be interested.
Bob Steele
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
YOURTCFG@aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
HI KIDS.
I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are working
on.
Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a generic
training device.
Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
"warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are considered
the
"Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
Message 4
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--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
Thanks!! jb
Message 5
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--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
Thanks!! jb
Message 6
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jimmy Rodriguez" <jimmyr@popsecs.com>
Jimbob,
You can count me in.
Jimmy Rodriguez
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
YOURTCFG@aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
HI KIDS.
I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are working
on.
Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a generic
training device.
Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
"warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are considered
the
"Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
Message 7
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer@charter.net>
I would be interested, if it would have an affect on rates. Currently I am
paying just over $3K, for hull coverage, $1mil/$100K liability, & $100K/$3K
medical payments, with about 2000 hrs total itme & 550 hrs multi. I've had
quotes for more than double that figure.
Thanks,
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
> availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
> Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are
working on.
> Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
> attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
> probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a
generic
> training device.
> Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
> "warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
> with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are
considered the
> "Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
>
>
Message 8
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--> Commander-List message posted by: MOEMILLS@aol.com
JB
I would commit for sure.
Moe Mills
N680RR
Message 9
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Williams" <billw@air-matrix.com>
JB:
We'd be interested. As you know, we've been looking for an insurance
approved program and have located one possible in California. I'll let
everyone know what we turn up.
Best,
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
Message 10
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Fran Myers" <myersf@attbi.com>
Hello All,
Having worked at Flight Safety my thoughts would be whether or not the
cost of the insurance savings would be greater than the ground school.
If you're a low time pilot who can't get insurance, any recognized
ground school would be good. However if you're high time, it may not be
economically sound to pay 2 to 5k for a ground school when you get
premiums lowered 500 to 1000 dollars.
I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows
about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it
now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great
at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It
sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be
careful.
Either way expect a VERY intense experience.
Fran Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
MOEMILLS@aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE
--> Commander-List message posted by: MOEMILLS@aol.com
JB
I would commit for sure.
Moe Mills
N680RR
Message 11
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--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 05/29/03 15:33:52 Pacific Daylight Time, myersf@attbi.com
writes:
> I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows
> about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it
> now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great
> at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It
> sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be
> careful.
>
I'm going to form up on Fran's wing here and add my agreement.
Unless FSI builds an entire program on the piston models and the generic IFR
trainer is configured as a Commander, I'm not sure what the benefit would be,
other than making the insurance underwriters happy.
To be sure, insurance underwriters need to be made happy but keep in mind the
average Flight Safety program costs upward of $5000 for recurrent.
And do you want to train in multi engine IFR procedures in a Navajo simulator
or some other generic type? Commanders -- especially geared engine models --
are too different in technique and procedure than other multiengine models.
I'd fully support a FSI or similar program if it was worth the cost. I don't
want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for this type of training but let's get a
read on projected price and course content.
What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering provided by
vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured attended
16 hours of class room instruction?
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 12
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
I'm on this wing.
Randy D is paying about the same as I am and I have a lot more total time
and multi time. I think a TCFG ground school would work better. and be
more practical.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 05/29/03 15:33:52 Pacific Daylight Time,
myersf@attbi.com
> writes:
>
>
> > I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows
> > about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it
> > now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great
> > at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It
> > sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be
> > careful.
> >
>
> I'm going to form up on Fran's wing here and add my agreement.
>
> Unless FSI builds an entire program on the piston models and the generic
IFR
> trainer is configured as a Commander, I'm not sure what the benefit would
be,
> other than making the insurance underwriters happy.
>
> To be sure, insurance underwriters need to be made happy but keep in mind
the
> average Flight Safety program costs upward of $5000 for recurrent.
>
> And do you want to train in multi engine IFR procedures in a Navajo
simulator
> or some other generic type? Commanders -- especially geared engine
models --
> are too different in technique and procedure than other multiengine
models.
>
> I'd fully support a FSI or similar program if it was worth the cost. I
don't
> want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for this type of training but let's get
a
> read on projected price and course content.
>
> What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
> accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering
provided by
> vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
>
> We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
> training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their
insured attended
> 16 hours of class room instruction?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
Message 13
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tylor Hall" <tylor@winddancer.aero>
I too am facing high cost of insurance. I was quoted $7,000 per year for a
500B.
I would like to offer my FBO location with training room, discount on fuel,
and I may have a Gold Seal Instructor with experience in Twin Commanders to
do the training if we can't talk Wind Commander Gordon to run it.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
970-731-2127
What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering provided
by
vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured
attended
16 hours of class room instruction?
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 14
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--> Commander-List message posted by: Barshalom@aol.com
Message 15
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--> Commander-List message posted by: Barshalom@aol.com
JB,
Count me in.
N69PT
Bill Culwell
Message 16
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Fran Myers" <myersf@attbi.com>
I have one other suggestion that would maybe make the seminar better.
Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
Then find out what the operators insurance company is and before the
seminar make a deal on rates for attendees.
I am not sure Suburban Air Freight or any other operators still operate
commanders. This should be easy to find out. From personal experience in
the check hauling industry, there is no better place to learn about a
specific type of aircraft (mine was in C310's and PA60's with Air Net).
Plus they will have all the practical experience (how much Ice, just how
heavy is too heavy, what really happens when this pump fails) and a
training program already made.
Food for thought
Fran
Message 17
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| Subject: | Commanders For Sale |
--> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com
Hello All,
For anyone that is interested I have two 500S Aero Commanders for sale. If
you want the details email me and I will provide.
Also, I have a 500U out of annual for sale.
Thanks,
Kevin Coons
Message 18
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
As I understand it Suburban is running 2 or 3 680FL's in Alaska.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fran Myers" <myersf@attbi.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Fran Myers" <myersf@attbi.com>
>
> I have one other suggestion that would maybe make the seminar better.
>
> Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
> thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
> or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
> a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
>
> Then find out what the operators insurance company is and before the
> seminar make a deal on rates for attendees.
>
> I am not sure Suburban Air Freight or any other operators still operate
> commanders. This should be easy to find out. From personal experience in
> the check hauling industry, there is no better place to learn about a
> specific type of aircraft (mine was in C310's and PA60's with Air Net).
> Plus they will have all the practical experience (how much Ice, just how
> heavy is too heavy, what really happens when this pump fails) and a
> training program already made.
>
> Food for thought
> Fran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 05/29/03 20:15:25 Pacific Daylight Time, myersf@attbi.com
writes:
> Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
> thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
> or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
> a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
>
Fran,
You're kind of new to the list but your input is golden.
Suburban Air Frieght was so successful with Commander 680-FLs that their
customers demanded more service and they moved up to Beech 1900s to win the
contracts.
Central Airlines of Kansas City, MO, would be the ones to hook up with.
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 20
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
JB,
In the news letter the crash of the South Carolina Shrike was attributed to
"miss fueling".
What does that mean?
The fuel hose missed the filler hole? The fuel missed the tank? The wrong
fuel was pumped into the tank? The wrong amount of the right fuel was
pumped into the tank?
bilbo
Message 21
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
I think it might also be time to bring attention to the articles in Flying
Magazine about twin versus single. Flying has admitted that in the past,
some articles and numbers have been inadvertently bias towards singles being
safer than twins. Reason being when a twin lands safely there may not be a
report. Conversely, you only hear about one when it crashes.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 05/29/03 20:15:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
myersf@attbi.com
> writes:
>
>
> > Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
> > thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
> > or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
> > a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
> >
>
> Fran,
>
> You're kind of new to the list but your input is golden.
>
> Suburban Air Frieght was so successful with Commander 680-FLs that their
> customers demanded more service and they moved up to Beech 1900s to win
the
> contracts.
>
> Central Airlines of Kansas City, MO, would be the ones to hook up with.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
Message 22
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
I'm pretty sure they fueled the airplane with Jet-A.
I seem to recall that Bob Hoover could tell a good story about having the
same thing happen in his Shrike.
One of the FIRST things I learned when I got my airplane was that you ALWAYS
stood by or participated when somebody else was fueling your airplane.
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Subject: Commander-List: fuel
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
>
> JB,
>
> In the news letter the crash of the South Carolina Shrike was attributed
to
> "miss fueling".
>
> What does that mean?
>
> The fuel hose missed the filler hole? The fuel missed the tank? The
wrong
> fuel was pumped into the tank? The wrong amount of the right fuel was
> pumped into the tank?
>
> bilbo
>
>
Message 23
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--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 05/29/03 22:06:59 Pacific Daylight Time, john@vormbaum.com
writes:
> I'm pretty sure they fueled the airplane with Jet-A.
>
> I seem to recall that Bob Hoover could tell a good story about having the
> same thing happen in his Shrike.
>
> One of the FIRST things I learned when I got my airplane was that you ALWAYS
> stood by or participated when somebody else was fueling your airplane.
>
Saying as how some nozzle jockeys will work extra hard to get a square jet
nozzle into a round avgas fuel port, here's an Old Indian Trick:
Say you were fueled while you were away from your piston Commander and you
want to make sure you didn't get Jet Juice.
Draw a sample from the sump.
Drop a few drops on a piece of paper. (Steal a sheet of paper from the
printer in the FBO)
Avgas will evaporate, leaving a slight color stain.
Jet A mixed in avgas will leave an oily splotch on the paper.
There it is. Your almost-free-field-fuel-test kit.
Wing Commander Gordon
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