---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/30/03: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:24 AM - Re: INSURANCE (James Lyle) 2. 06:29 AM - Re: INSURANCE (Phil Stubbs) 3. 07:29 AM - Re: fuel (Bill Bow) 4. 08:04 AM - Re: fuel (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 5. 08:24 AM - 135 Operators of Commanders for insurance premium purposes during fly-in (ProgSearch@aol.com) 6. 09:24 AM - Crash at Grand Canyon of 520 (MOEMILLS@aol.com) 7. 09:34 AM - Re: Commanders For Sale (Craig Lundborg) 8. 09:52 AM - Re: Commanders For Sale (Tom Fisher) 9. 10:13 AM - Re: Crash at Grand Canyon of 520 (Barry Collman) 10. 10:44 AM - Re: Commanders For Sale (Bill Williams) 11. 11:05 AM - Insurance (John McNulty) 12. 02:09 PM - Re: INSURANCE (Jim Addington) 13. 02:46 PM - Re: Commanders For Sale (ProgSearch@aol.com) 14. 02:46 PM - Re: Commanders For Sale (ProgSearch@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:23 AM PST US From: "James Lyle" Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE --> Commander-List message posted by: "James Lyle" I agree, a TCFG school would be my first choice. James Lyle N11L >>> bowing74@earthlink.net 05/29 8:04 PM >>> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" I'm on this wing. Randy D is paying about the same as I am and I have a lot more total time and multi time. I think a TCFG ground school would work better. and be more practical. bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 05/29/03 15:33:52 Pacific Daylight Time, myersf@attbi.com > writes: > > > > I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows > > about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it > > now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great > > at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It > > sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be > > careful. > > > > I'm going to form up on Fran's wing here and add my agreement. > > Unless FSI builds an entire program on the piston models and the generic IFR > trainer is configured as a Commander, I'm not sure what the benefit would be, > other than making the insurance underwriters happy. > > To be sure, insurance underwriters need to be made happy but keep in mind the > average Flight Safety program costs upward of $5000 for recurrent. > > And do you want to train in multi engine IFR procedures in a Navajo simulator > or some other generic type? Commanders -- especially geared engine models -- > are too different in technique and procedure than other multiengine models. > > I'd fully support a FSI or similar program if it was worth the cost. I don't > want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for this type of training but let's get a > read on projected price and course content. > > What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid > accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering provided by > vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue. > > We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight > training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured attended > 16 hours of class room instruction? > > Wing Commander Gordon > > --------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: The information contained in this e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it may contain legally privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this e-mail message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately either by telephone or by electronic mail, and delete this message and all copies and back-ups thereof. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:40 AM PST US From: "Phil Stubbs" Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE --> Commander-List message posted by: "Phil Stubbs" Just went through the insurance game this month myself. Avemco, who was great last year at $3600 for $1mil/100k/seat and $100k hull for a new Commander driver, quoted $4200 for the renewal. They wanted me to get a BFR in the Commander with "a" flight instructer but did not care if the instructer had ever seen a Commander. Someone on the list suggested Aircraft Insurance Agency (800-232-1953) a while back and they quoted $2900 for the same limits. I have 11,000 TT 8000MEL and 55 in Twin Commanders. > [Original Message] > From: Tylor Hall > To: > Date: 5/29/2003 8:09:03 PM > Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tylor Hall" > > I too am facing high cost of insurance. I was quoted $7,000 per year for a > 500B. > > I would like to offer my FBO location with training room, discount on fuel, > and I may have a Gold Seal Instructor with experience in Twin Commanders to > do the training if we can't talk Wind Commander Gordon to run it. > > Regards, > Tylor Hall > Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc. > 2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO > 970-731-2127 > > > What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid > accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering provided > by > vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue. > > We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight > training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured > attended > 16 hours of class room instruction? > > Wing Commander Gordon > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:52 AM PST US From: "Bill Bow" Subject: Re: Commander-List: fuel --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" You velly smart Mr. Commander man. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: fuel > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 05/29/03 22:06:59 Pacific Daylight Time, john@vormbaum.com > writes: > > > > I'm pretty sure they fueled the airplane with Jet-A. > > > > I seem to recall that Bob Hoover could tell a good story about having the > > same thing happen in his Shrike. > > > > One of the FIRST things I learned when I got my airplane was that you ALWAYS > > stood by or participated when somebody else was fueling your airplane. > > > > Saying as how some nozzle jockeys will work extra hard to get a square jet > nozzle into a round avgas fuel port, here's an Old Indian Trick: > > Say you were fueled while you were away from your piston Commander and you > want to make sure you didn't get Jet Juice. > > Draw a sample from the sump. > > Drop a few drops on a piece of paper. (Steal a sheet of paper from the > printer in the FBO) > > Avgas will evaporate, leaving a slight color stain. > > Jet A mixed in avgas will leave an oily splotch on the paper. > > There it is. Your almost-free-field-fuel-test kit. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:53 AM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: fuel --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 5/29/2003 10:02:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, bowing74@earthlink.net writes: > The fuel hose missed the filler hole? The fuel missed the tank? The wrong > fuel was pumped into the tank? The wrong amount of the right fuel was > pumped into the tank? > JET FUEL. jb ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:47 AM PST US From: ProgSearch@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: 135 Operators of Commanders for insurance premium purposes during fly-in --> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com FYI, John Towner of Central Air Southwest Airlines the nations largest commercial operator of piston commanders will attending this years TCFG fly-in. In addition, John is speaking on Saturday Sept 13 at approximately 11am on what it takes to keep 35 piston commanders in the air. He will also be discussing his STC'd TKS system for 500B,U, & S commanders. Certified for flight into known icing conditions. I flew for central Air Southwest in 2001-2002 and I have asked John to speak at the fly-in and he has agreed to accept. He has provided me with tremendous support from an operational and technical standpoint when I deliver airplanes to Europe or throughout the US. He is extremely knowledgeable about Commanders. If the group would like me to I am willing to approach John about developing a training program to be conducted during the fly-ins on an annual basis. Ground school and checkride. He has several MEI's who fly for him who have more than 5000 hrs in commanders. John is also the companies designated examiner. Central Air has in excess of 3 million flight hours in Commanders over a 30 year history. Kevin Coons ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:58 AM PST US From: MOEMILLS@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: Crash at Grand Canyon of 520 --> Commander-List message posted by: MOEMILLS@aol.com Fellow Commander drivers, Have just heard that a 520 crashed on take off at the Grand Canyon. GNC (?) Apparently it was out of Rialto, Calif. airport. Does anyone have any info? I was at GNC for the long week end and did not see a Commander other than ours (N680RR), and we are doing just fine. Moe ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:57 AM PST US From: "Craig Lundborg" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale --> Commander-List message posted by: "Craig Lundborg" Please send info on the commanders....You must be blessed ....having three Commanders! Craig Lundborg ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale > --> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com > > Hello All, > > For anyone that is interested I have two 500S Aero Commanders for sale. If > you want the details email me and I will provide. > > Also, I have a 500U out of annual for sale. > > Thanks, > Kevin Coons > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:19 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Let me know if you would like to cheap lease one to Search & Rescue here in Vancouver Canada until we can obtain a 680FLP. Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale > --> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com > > Hello All, > > For anyone that is interested I have two 500S Aero Commanders for sale. If > you want the details email me and I will provide. > > Also, I have a 500U out of annual for sale. > > Thanks, > Kevin Coons > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:12 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash at Grand Canyon of 520 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" According to the FAA's Preliminary Accident/Incident Report, the accident occurred on May 28th at Tusayan, Arizona. N64Ts, a Model 500B, serial number 1442-156 was on takeoff from runway 21 when it "crashed under unknown circumstances". Four on board. One seriously injured, 3 minor injuries. I had the pleasure of meeting the owners, Joe Ciabattoni and Merlin Patrick at the TCAC University in Scottsdale, in 1999. Let's hope the injuries are not too serious and all make a full and speedy recovery. The Commander is classified as destroyed. Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: Crash at Grand Canyon of 520 | --> Commander-List message posted by: MOEMILLS@aol.com | | Fellow Commander drivers, | | Have just heard that a 520 crashed on take off at the Grand Canyon. GNC (?) | Apparently it was out of Rialto, Calif. airport. Does anyone have any info? | | I was at GNC for the long week end and did not see a Commander other than | ours (N680RR), and we are doing just fine. | | Moe | | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:03 AM PST US From: "Bill Williams" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Williams" Kevin Coons: We'd like to hear about your Commanders that are for sale. Bill Williams AirMatrix 17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D Arlington, WA 98223-7898 tel: 360-435-7343 fax: 360-435-8193 billw@air-matrix.com www.air-matrix.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:10 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Insurance From: "John McNulty" --> Commander-List message posted by: "John McNulty" JB - I would be a definite "in" as well - and would even contract for annual re-ups if necessary. Regards, John McNulty 89PK 680F(P) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:25 PM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington" I just went through the insurance bit for my 500A also and mine was $3550 for $120,000 hul and $1mil$100,000. I have 19000 hrs total, about 17000 multi with 600 in my 500A.I have an open pilot policy. Jim Addington N444BD -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil Stubbs Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE --> Commander-List message posted by: "Phil Stubbs" Just went through the insurance game this month myself. Avemco, who was great last year at $3600 for $1mil/100k/seat and $100k hull for a new Commander driver, quoted $4200 for the renewal. They wanted me to get a BFR in the Commander with "a" flight instructer but did not care if the instructer had ever seen a Commander. Someone on the list suggested Aircraft Insurance Agency (800-232-1953) a while back and they quoted $2900 for the same limits. I have 11,000 TT 8000MEL and 55 in Twin Commanders. > [Original Message] > From: Tylor Hall > To: > Date: 5/29/2003 8:09:03 PM > Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tylor Hall" > > I too am facing high cost of insurance. I was quoted $7,000 per year for a > 500B. > > I would like to offer my FBO location with training room, discount on fuel, > and I may have a Gold Seal Instructor with experience in Twin Commanders to > do the training if we can't talk Wind Commander Gordon to run it. > > Regards, > Tylor Hall > Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc. > 2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO > 970-731-2127 > > > What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid > accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering provided > by > vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue. > > We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight > training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured > attended > 16 hours of class room instruction? > > Wing Commander Gordon > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:07 PM PST US From: ProgSearch@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale --> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com Bill, Thanks for your interest. Let me start off by saying that these are not my airplanes. I am simply trying to help the owners out. Attached are to MS word documents regarding the 500S commanders. The 500U I will have to fax if you want to see the particulars? The asking price is on each sheet. Both of these Shrikes are in South America. Thanks, Kevin Coons PS I have some pictures if you want to see them. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:48 PM PST US From: ProgSearch@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale --> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com Tom, The owners are hungry for cash and don't want to lease them out at this time. Kevin