Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:03 AM - Re: STEC in a 520? (Buddy Windham)
2. 05:15 AM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (Bill Bow)
3. 06:23 AM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Brock Lorber - VegasFC)
4. 07:25 AM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (Brock Lorber - VegasFC)
5. 07:50 AM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (Jody and Susan Pillatzki)
6. 10:38 AM - single engine (Dan Dominguez)
7. 08:23 PM - Technique (Barry Hancock)
8. 09:04 PM - Re: Technique (CloudCraft@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: STEC in a 520? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: Buddy Windham <bw_cycon@yahoo.com>
Hey guys, a little late jumping in but my experience with stec ain't so good.
I wanted to remove my 50 series and upgrade to a 60-2 in my 560e. The main reason
was the footprint in the panel. I worked with stec for over 1 year trying
to get them off top dead center and get this stc done. I heard every excuse
known to mankind, but mostly the FAA. This one probablly correct. I had to place
a firm order to get them to do anything. My probem with them is I never,
ever heard the same story twice!!!!!! Promised to return my phone calls were
numerious, and you guessed it they never did. I finally go so frustrated that
I ended up putting a 65 series in my 560e. This system requires 2 seperate
panel cuts to handle. I am happy with the final result, however ended up spending
thousands more than I originally wanted to with the 60-2 system.. Another
good point was they ended up giving me full credit for what I paid 5 years ago
for the 0 series.
Bruce Campbell <baruch@intelligentflight.com> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bruce Campbell"
STEC has STCs for the 560A, no less. But as miss is as good as a mile in
terms of the FAA.
Further, STEC can perform a single flight test, apparently, and put in the
paperwork for a new model on their general STC. But... they aren't
interested in doing so unless they feel there is "market" for the result.
Mind you, if you've got an experimental it's even easier. They send a set of
development ROMs, the installer has a test pilot fl a series of manuevers,
and a new set of "permanent" roms are sent. So, if you've got a 520 you're
out of luck, but if you're flying an Experimental Exhibition certified
Stidestrander-Chuffington, literally the sky's the limit.
I love how the FAA protects us all.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tylor Hall"
Subject: RE: Commander-List: STEC in a 520?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tylor Hall"
>
> Phil,
> The STEC 50 is approved on a number of short body flat nacelle Twin
> Commanders. We would be willing to help in the process. We would need
> STEC's support. The 560F, 680F/FL/FP/FLP all need new autopilots. I have
> several customers that need new autopilots. We have a DER on staff. Give
> me a call.
>
> Regards,
> Tylor Hall
> Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
> 2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
> 970-731-2127
>
>
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: STEC in a 520?
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Phil Stubbs"
>
>
> I've been trying to find a shop/FSDO combo that will do a one time
approval
> for S-TEC 50 in my 560F (also approved for Lear and Brittain). Commander
> Aero is exploring the possibilitys.
> Does anyone know of a shop that can do a non-stc'd S-Tec install?
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Bruce Campbell
> > To:
> > Date: 10/23/2003 3:54:23 PM
> > Subject: Commander-List: STEC in a 520?
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bruce Campbell"
>
> >
> > I think I heard a short while ago about an STEC autopilot in a 520.
> >
> > Does that mean they have an STC now for the 520? They didn't used to.
> >
> > Inquiring Minds Want To Know!
> >
> > Bruce Campbell
> > AC52 N4186B
> >
> >
>
>
Buddy Windham, President
Cycon Enterprises, Inc.
General Contractors/Construction Management/Design Build Services
0-608 Quincy Street S.W.
Grandville, Michigan 49418
616 896-6488 office
616 896-6490 fax
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
I erased this email yesterday but will now send it instead.
I think it is very important to, at some point, shut one down. I think it
is good for the fear factor to see what that looks like. It might keep you
from wetting you pants if the real think happens.
another 1.5 cents.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann <cschuerm@cox.net>
>
>
> CloudCraft@aol.com wrote:
> > Since I'm raking it in on useless advice today, anyone have a few cents
worth
> > of experience of actually having to shut one down and then restart -- in
real
> > life?
>
> During my ownership of the 520 (GO-435's), I shut both engines down
> several times on purpose (not at the same time of course). I always
> pre-cooled prior to shutdown. Never had a re-start problem although
> they did require a bit of cranking before coming out of feather.
> Although I knew it was hard on the engines, I just felt it was prudent
> for me to have a good "feel" for the airplane with one really shut down.
> Although it's hard on those geared starters, it's probably easier on
> the engine to shut it down rather than clatter the gearbox at idle....
> I'm glad I did bother to practice single-engine work and do a couple of
> true single-engine landings because I did loose an engine during takeoff
> once. The right engine just stopped cold at about 200ft agl. Glad it
> was the right one because the gear were just coming up. Feathered it
> and climbed out easily for a return to a non-eventful landing.
>
> Chris Schuermann
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Checklists anyone? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" <blorber@vegasfc.com>
We just added a new checklist for the guy who calls himself the co-co-pilot
(he monitors the door lock, door seal, and runs the entertainment center).
This is a preflight checklist to ensure he remembers to take his bags out
of the back of his truck and put them on the ground near the baggage
compartment so they get loaded instead of left at the airport!
The good news is, 400CH is back in the air, purring like a kitten, and the
families are enjoying the new interior and entertainment center! ~ 9 hours
this week from Vegas to Boise, back to Vegas with a quick stop in Battle
Mountain, NV, a quick hop to Bakersfield, and back to Vegas. A few minor
items to tighten up, but we're just about ready for the hunting seasons!
Brock Lorber
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert Sather" <sather@charter.net>
>
>
> I agree. I just got lost in the communication. Seems like more that a
few
> items and I forget. So I need a check list on everything I do anymore.
> bobby
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Wrom: TQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGV
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
> <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> > Oh, we are just talking about the practice of checklists versus
memorized
> > drills. Some folks adhere more rigorously to checklists than others. I
was
> a
> > total non-checklist pilot but has since converted, but the extent to
which
> > one ought to follow a checklist is the question. Obviously checklists
are
> > good verifiers, but the pilot should be able to complete all phases of
the
> > flight from memory.
> > Otherwise, sorry, there's no point.
> > Nico
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > Wrom: CJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLK
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert Sather"
> <sather@charter.net>
> > >
> > >
> > > The point being?????
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > Wrom: BRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMN
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
> > > <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> > > >
> > > > There are strong arguments for checklists by pros who have been
> > practicing
> > > > their craft safely for a long time and amateurs like me will do good
> to
> > > heed
> > > > their advice. However, checklists appear to be only part of the
story.
> > > > Checklists, yes, but checklists alone, no way. And it is not as if
the
> > > pros
> > > > proposed that checklists are alone the cure for all fingertroubles,
> but
> > > they
> > > > preached to me and folks who would strap a plane to their butts and
> > blast
> > > > off having followed some acronym and scanning the instrument panel
> from
> > > left
> > > > to right touching each instrument and switch in an attempt to remain
> > > within
> > > > the reality realm.
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Nico
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > Wrom: NSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIB
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> > > > >
> > > > > In a message dated 10/21/2003 1:05:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > > > > tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Absolutely emergency drills in a single pilot environment have
to
> be
> > > > > > conducted from memory
> > > > >
> > > > > How about a "memory checklist" I use C-I-G-A-R T-I-P. As I ferry
> or
> > > > write
> > > > > about many different airplanes, many (most) don't have a reliable
> > > written
> > > > > checklist. I believe firmly that a memory checklist is essential
to
> > > > safety.
> > > > > Emergencies require it. There are also the items that are not
> > currently
> > > > found on
> > > > > the Commander written checklist, such as turning off the aux hyd
> pump
> > > > after TO
> > > > > or checking the aux fuel valve operation prior to engine start.
> These
> > > > items
> > > > > are not found on the written checklist, but extremely important in
> the
> > > > real
> > > > > world. I have chosen to memorize them. There are certainly
> airplanes
> > > > that are
> > > > > to complex to commit their operation to memory, but Commander is
not
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > them. Just my thoughts. jb
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" <blorber@vegasfc.com>
Well put, Mr. Gordon. Gary Gadberry proved to me (with one of my employers
in the back) that the 680 flies (and lands) much better with one feathered
than with one at zero-thrust. That went a loooong way to boost my
confidence (and more importantly the families who ride in back) in the AC's
handling and the value of dragging around our huge vertical sail!
I'm a less-agressive instructor in other types. I teach my clients to
safely practice engine out maneuvers with zero-thrust, and have them
feather and perform a couple of air starts not so much to practice
maneuvers, but to show them how quickly the engine cools and how hard it
can be to get them re-started. I also cannot stand the grinding and
shaking out on the wing, but don't have enough confidence in the
single-engine performance of many airplanes (or the traffic
patterns/controllers at our local airports) to make a feathered approach
and landing.
I love the pre-oilers on 400CH. What a great feeling it gives to have oil
pressure BEFORE cranking the starter! We ask a lot of that airplane, and
little things like the pre-oilers put me way ahead of the game before we
even leave the chocks.
Brock Lorber
N400CH
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10/25/03 11:05:07 Pacific Daylight Time,
> kellyp@air-matrix.com writes:
>
> > What is the best practice for zero-thrust setup and execution
> > with the GO-480's? Or dare I ask - how detrimental is it to actually
> > shut-down feather and re-start?
> >
>
> Kelly,
>
> Take the power to the "bottom of the green" for both MAP and RPM. You'll
> have more than zero thrust, but you'll still have an engine at the end of
the
> day.
>
> You're demonstrating technique on your checkride and I.M.O you shouldn't
be
> making a blood sacrifice to the FAA.
>
> As soon as you can, find a Commander owner with a direct drive model and
work
> out what ever kind of deal you have to, to feather the left engine and
fly
> around to get the true sense of handling and climb gradient.
>
> In the past, I think I've gotten one geared engine to restart
comfortably.
> The rest, I gave the client a chance to go through the steps, but I just
> couldn't stand the grinding and grinding to get it started in the air.
Maybe they
> would have all started eventually, but it just drives me berserk to watch
all
> that shaking and straining out there on the wing.
>
> I always used this as an opportunity to land with an engine feathered
because
> the deceleration with an engine feathered is so much different than with
two
> turning that I think it's important to experience. Believe it or don't,
the
> plane doesn't slow down as fast with one feathered, contrary to what your
> intuition would have you think.
>
> Since I'm raking it in on useless advice today, anyone have a few cents
worth
> of experience of actually having to shut one down and then restart -- in
real
> life?
>
> I figure if it gets to the point of actually needing featering a piston
> engine (you've done all you can do to keep it running: fuel selector,
boost pumps,
> mixture, mags), there's probably no reason to ever restart it. Is there?
>
> By the way, aside from the IGSO-540 boys, anyone have unfeathering
> accumulators or electric (pre) oil pumps? I believe N400CH, a Mr. RPM
FLP, has
> pre-oilers, but not sure if anyone else does. Those would be a big help
in
> unfeathering, I'd think.
>
> It's all about building enough oil pressure to unfeather the prop and
that's
> a lot to ask of a starter motor fighting with 80 to 100+ knots of cold
wind.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" <jpillatzki@702com.net>
To agree with everyone else and put it short and sweet. The only time a go
around should be an emergency is when you are doing something or in a
portion of the envelope you shouldn't have been in to begin with.
Jody
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" <blorber@vegasfc.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC"
<blorber@vegasfc.com>
>
> Well put, Mr. Gordon. Gary Gadberry proved to me (with one of my
employers
> in the back) that the 680 flies (and lands) much better with one feathered
> than with one at zero-thrust. That went a loooong way to boost my
> confidence (and more importantly the families who ride in back) in the
AC's
> handling and the value of dragging around our huge vertical sail!
>
> I'm a less-agressive instructor in other types. I teach my clients to
> safely practice engine out maneuvers with zero-thrust, and have them
> feather and perform a couple of air starts not so much to practice
> maneuvers, but to show them how quickly the engine cools and how hard it
> can be to get them re-started. I also cannot stand the grinding and
> shaking out on the wing, but don't have enough confidence in the
> single-engine performance of many airplanes (or the traffic
> patterns/controllers at our local airports) to make a feathered approach
> and landing.
>
> I love the pre-oilers on 400CH. What a great feeling it gives to have oil
> pressure BEFORE cranking the starter! We ask a lot of that airplane, and
> little things like the pre-oilers put me way ahead of the game before we
> even leave the chocks.
>
> Brock Lorber
> N400CH
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 10/25/03 11:05:07 Pacific Daylight Time,
> > kellyp@air-matrix.com writes:
> >
> > > What is the best practice for zero-thrust setup and execution
> > > with the GO-480's? Or dare I ask - how detrimental is it to actually
> > > shut-down feather and re-start?
> > >
> >
> > Kelly,
> >
> > Take the power to the "bottom of the green" for both MAP and RPM.
You'll
> > have more than zero thrust, but you'll still have an engine at the end
of
> the
> > day.
> >
> > You're demonstrating technique on your checkride and I.M.O you shouldn't
> be
> > making a blood sacrifice to the FAA.
> >
> > As soon as you can, find a Commander owner with a direct drive model and
> work
> > out what ever kind of deal you have to, to feather the left engine and
> fly
> > around to get the true sense of handling and climb gradient.
> >
> > In the past, I think I've gotten one geared engine to restart
> comfortably.
> > The rest, I gave the client a chance to go through the steps, but I just
> > couldn't stand the grinding and grinding to get it started in the air.
> Maybe they
> > would have all started eventually, but it just drives me berserk to
watch
> all
> > that shaking and straining out there on the wing.
> >
> > I always used this as an opportunity to land with an engine feathered
> because
> > the deceleration with an engine feathered is so much different than with
> two
> > turning that I think it's important to experience. Believe it or
don't,
> the
> > plane doesn't slow down as fast with one feathered, contrary to what
your
> > intuition would have you think.
> >
> > Since I'm raking it in on useless advice today, anyone have a few cents
> worth
> > of experience of actually having to shut one down and then restart -- in
> real
> > life?
> >
> > I figure if it gets to the point of actually needing featering a piston
> > engine (you've done all you can do to keep it running: fuel selector,
> boost pumps,
> > mixture, mags), there's probably no reason to ever restart it. Is
there?
> >
> > By the way, aside from the IGSO-540 boys, anyone have unfeathering
> > accumulators or electric (pre) oil pumps? I believe N400CH, a Mr. RPM
> FLP, has
> > pre-oilers, but not sure if anyone else does. Those would be a big
help
> in
> > unfeathering, I'd think.
> >
> > It's all about building enough oil pressure to unfeather the prop and
> that's
> > a lot to ask of a starter motor fighting with 80 to 100+ knots of cold
> wind.
> >
> > Wing Commander Gordon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Dan Dominguez" <dan@worldflight2000.com>
>I don't want to give the impression that geared engines are made >of glass.
>Quite the contrary. I think they're stout, rugged power plants. >They sound
>really bitchin', too!
>They do require knowledge and operating technique that are now a >rare commodities
wcg-
when chris and i were flying around the world in 559, i shut down the left side
at FL160 over the red sea. at vyse it took us around 20 minutes to fall out
of the sky as we dumped gas to get under mgtow. she stabilized at 75% around
5000ft to an unventful landing some 45 minutes later.
with both turning, proper planning sequencing an approach at 160 or 90 can be done
safely and effectively with power,gear,flap management.
thanks for taking the time to provide your advice. always valuable...
dan
Message 7
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--> Commander-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
On Saturday, October 25, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
wrote:
> They do require knowledge and operating technique that are now a rare
> commodities.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
In the warbird world they say "radial engines are for real pilots". I
guess I'm just lucky I was brought up on radials because operating a
geared motor (radials are geared too, but just much more stout because
they don't have planetary gears) is not a big issue. As far as
technique, you're talking about the "Think ahead, plan ahead, and run
over any poor sucker that gets in your way...." philosophy, right?
So what are you saying, WCG? That I'm some sort of enigma at 35? Wait,
don't answer that....
Barry (I fly radials and geared motors, but I'm still working on being a
real pilot) Hancock
Barry Hancock
Director of Operations
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
Message 8
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--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 10/26/03 20:24:01 Pacific Standard Time,
radialpower@cox.net writes:
> So what are you saying, WCG? That I'm some sort of enigma at 35?
You're worse than that.
But, I'm jealous because other than a bit of Convair 240 flying, I've never
spent time between or even behind radials.
Of course, it's been said that the IGSO-540 is a flat radial ...
At 35 you're carrying a lot of history around with you, my boy.
Wing Commander Gordon
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