---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/28/03: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:44 PM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (css nico) 2. 01:44 PM - Re: Technique (css nico) 3. 01:44 PM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (css nico) 4. 01:44 PM - Re: single engine (css nico) 5. 01:44 PM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (css nico) 6. 02:18 PM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (CloudCraft@aol.com) 7. 05:45 PM - Re: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? (Tylor Hall) 8. 06:56 PM - Experimental Exhibition (Barry Hancock) 9. 08:29 PM - Re: Experimental Exhibition (CloudCraft@aol.com) 10. 10:05 PM - IMC (Barry Hancock) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:12 PM PST US From: "css nico" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" I agree, it is a good idea to actually do a dead engine landing, but I retarded power to 15" and then proceeded to feather, pacing the feather with throttle closure. I never did hear a clatter or believed that the engine would overstress developing power on a feathered prop. Since I didn't own the 680F(P) I wasn't around to find out whether I caused damage to the engines but only did my best to do what I believed was best-practice maneuvers. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > > CloudCraft@aol.com wrote: > > Since I'm raking it in on useless advice today, anyone have a few cents worth > > of experience of actually having to shut one down and then restart -- in real > > life? > > During my ownership of the 520 (GO-435's), I shut both engines down > several times on purpose (not at the same time of course). I always > pre-cooled prior to shutdown. Never had a re-start problem although > they did require a bit of cranking before coming out of feather. > Although I knew it was hard on the engines, I just felt it was prudent > for me to have a good "feel" for the airplane with one really shut down. > Although it's hard on those geared starters, it's probably easier on > the engine to shut it down rather than clatter the gearbox at idle.... > I'm glad I did bother to practice single-engine work and do a couple of > true single-engine landings because I did loose an engine during takeoff > once. The right engine just stopped cold at about 200ft agl. Glad it > was the right one because the gear were just coming up. Feathered it > and climbed out easily for a return to a non-eventful landing. > > Chris Schuermann > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:12 PM PST US From: "css nico" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Technique --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" You're 35? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Hancock" Subject: Commander-List: Technique > --> Commander-List message posted by: Barry Hancock > > > On Saturday, October 25, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server > wrote: > > > They do require knowledge and operating technique that are now a rare > > commodities. > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > In the warbird world they say "radial engines are for real pilots". I > guess I'm just lucky I was brought up on radials because operating a > geared motor (radials are geared too, but just much more stout because > they don't have planetary gears) is not a big issue. As far as > technique, you're talking about the "Think ahead, plan ahead, and run > over any poor sucker that gets in your way...." philosophy, right? > > So what are you saying, WCG? That I'm some sort of enigma at 35? Wait, > don't answer that.... > > Barry (I fly radials and geared motors, but I'm still working on being a > real pilot) Hancock > Barry Hancock > Director of Operations > Red Stars, Inc. > 949.300.5510 > www.allredstar.com > "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes" > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:12 PM PST US From: "css nico" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" Hey, who are these Pillatzkis? Good to have new blood on the line, but would you guys introduce yourselves? Nice to have you on the list. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" > > To agree with everyone else and put it short and sweet. The only time a go > around should be an emergency is when you are doing something or in a > portion of the envelope you shouldn't have been in to begin with. > Jody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" > > > > > Well put, Mr. Gordon. Gary Gadberry proved to me (with one of my > employers > > in the back) that the 680 flies (and lands) much better with one feathered > > than with one at zero-thrust. That went a loooong way to boost my > > confidence (and more importantly the families who ride in back) in the > AC's > > handling and the value of dragging around our huge vertical sail! > > > > I'm a less-agressive instructor in other types. I teach my clients to > > safely practice engine out maneuvers with zero-thrust, and have them > > feather and perform a couple of air starts not so much to practice > > maneuvers, but to show them how quickly the engine cools and how hard it > > can be to get them re-started. I also cannot stand the grinding and > > shaking out on the wing, but don't have enough confidence in the > > single-engine performance of many airplanes (or the traffic > > patterns/controllers at our local airports) to make a feathered approach > > and landing. > > > > I love the pre-oilers on 400CH. What a great feeling it gives to have oil > > pressure BEFORE cranking the starter! We ask a lot of that airplane, and > > little things like the pre-oilers put me way ahead of the game before we > > even leave the chocks. > > > > Brock Lorber > > N400CH > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 10/25/03 11:05:07 Pacific Daylight Time, > > > kellyp@air-matrix.com writes: > > > > > > > What is the best practice for zero-thrust setup and execution > > > > with the GO-480's? Or dare I ask - how detrimental is it to actually > > > > shut-down feather and re-start? > > > > > > > > > > Kelly, > > > > > > Take the power to the "bottom of the green" for both MAP and RPM. > You'll > > > have more than zero thrust, but you'll still have an engine at the end > of > > the > > > day. > > > > > > You're demonstrating technique on your checkride and I.M.O you shouldn't > > be > > > making a blood sacrifice to the FAA. > > > > > > As soon as you can, find a Commander owner with a direct drive model and > > work > > > out what ever kind of deal you have to, to feather the left engine and > > fly > > > around to get the true sense of handling and climb gradient. > > > > > > In the past, I think I've gotten one geared engine to restart > > comfortably. > > > The rest, I gave the client a chance to go through the steps, but I just > > > couldn't stand the grinding and grinding to get it started in the air. > > Maybe they > > > would have all started eventually, but it just drives me berserk to > watch > > all > > > that shaking and straining out there on the wing. > > > > > > I always used this as an opportunity to land with an engine feathered > > because > > > the deceleration with an engine feathered is so much different than with > > two > > > turning that I think it's important to experience. Believe it or > don't, > > the > > > plane doesn't slow down as fast with one feathered, contrary to what > your > > > intuition would have you think. > > > > > > Since I'm raking it in on useless advice today, anyone have a few cents > > worth > > > of experience of actually having to shut one down and then restart -- in > > real > > > life? > > > > > > I figure if it gets to the point of actually needing featering a piston > > > engine (you've done all you can do to keep it running: fuel selector, > > boost pumps, > > > mixture, mags), there's probably no reason to ever restart it. Is > there? > > > > > > By the way, aside from the IGSO-540 boys, anyone have unfeathering > > > accumulators or electric (pre) oil pumps? I believe N400CH, a Mr. RPM > > FLP, has > > > pre-oilers, but not sure if anyone else does. Those would be a big > help > > in > > > unfeathering, I'd think. > > > > > > It's all about building enough oil pressure to unfeather the prop and > > that's > > > a lot to ask of a starter motor fighting with 80 to 100+ knots of cold > > wind. > > > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:12 PM PST US From: "css nico" Subject: Re: Commander-List: single engine --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" Dan, There was material about your historical flight, but I cannot remember where it can be found. Could you please help us out? Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Dominguez" Subject: Commander-List: single engine > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Dan Dominguez" > > >I don't want to give the impression that geared engines are made >of glass. > >Quite the contrary. I think they're stout, rugged power plants. >They sound > >really bitchin', too! > >They do require knowledge and operating technique that are now a >rare commodities > > wcg- > when chris and i were flying around the world in 559, i shut down the left side at FL160 over the red sea. at vyse it took us around 20 minutes to fall out of the sky as we dumped gas to get under mgtow. she stabilized at 75% around 5000ft to an unventful landing some 45 minutes later. > > with both turning, proper planning sequencing an approach at 160 or 90 can be done safely and effectively with power,gear,flap management. > > thanks for taking the time to provide your advice. always valuable... > dan > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:12 PM PST US From: "css nico" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" About the pre-oilers: is that a continuous pressure pump or does it empty a reservoir once only into the oil lines? Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" > > Well put, Mr. Gordon. Gary Gadberry proved to me (with one of my employers > in the back) that the 680 flies (and lands) much better with one feathered > than with one at zero-thrust. That went a loooong way to boost my > confidence (and more importantly the families who ride in back) in the AC's > handling and the value of dragging around our huge vertical sail! > > I'm a less-agressive instructor in other types. I teach my clients to > safely practice engine out maneuvers with zero-thrust, and have them > feather and perform a couple of air starts not so much to practice > maneuvers, but to show them how quickly the engine cools and how hard it > can be to get them re-started. I also cannot stand the grinding and > shaking out on the wing, but don't have enough confidence in the > single-engine performance of many airplanes (or the traffic > patterns/controllers at our local airports) to make a feathered approach > and landing. > > I love the pre-oilers on 400CH. What a great feeling it gives to have oil > pressure BEFORE cranking the starter! We ask a lot of that airplane, and > little things like the pre-oilers put me way ahead of the game before we > even leave the chocks. > > Brock Lorber > N400CH > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 10/25/03 11:05:07 Pacific Daylight Time, > > kellyp@air-matrix.com writes: > > > > > What is the best practice for zero-thrust setup and execution > > > with the GO-480's? Or dare I ask - how detrimental is it to actually > > > shut-down feather and re-start? > > > > > > > Kelly, > > > > Take the power to the "bottom of the green" for both MAP and RPM. You'll > > have more than zero thrust, but you'll still have an engine at the end of > the > > day. > > > > You're demonstrating technique on your checkride and I.M.O you shouldn't > be > > making a blood sacrifice to the FAA. > > > > As soon as you can, find a Commander owner with a direct drive model and > work > > out what ever kind of deal you have to, to feather the left engine and > fly > > around to get the true sense of handling and climb gradient. > > > > In the past, I think I've gotten one geared engine to restart > comfortably. > > The rest, I gave the client a chance to go through the steps, but I just > > couldn't stand the grinding and grinding to get it started in the air. > Maybe they > > would have all started eventually, but it just drives me berserk to watch > all > > that shaking and straining out there on the wing. > > > > I always used this as an opportunity to land with an engine feathered > because > > the deceleration with an engine feathered is so much different than with > two > > turning that I think it's important to experience. Believe it or don't, > the > > plane doesn't slow down as fast with one feathered, contrary to what your > > intuition would have you think. > > > > Since I'm raking it in on useless advice today, anyone have a few cents > worth > > of experience of actually having to shut one down and then restart -- in > real > > life? > > > > I figure if it gets to the point of actually needing featering a piston > > engine (you've done all you can do to keep it running: fuel selector, > boost pumps, > > mixture, mags), there's probably no reason to ever restart it. Is there? > > > > By the way, aside from the IGSO-540 boys, anyone have unfeathering > > accumulators or electric (pre) oil pumps? I believe N400CH, a Mr. RPM > FLP, has > > pre-oilers, but not sure if anyone else does. Those would be a big help > in > > unfeathering, I'd think. > > > > It's all about building enough oil pressure to unfeather the prop and > that's > > a lot to ask of a starter motor fighting with 80 to 100+ knots of cold > wind. > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:05 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 10/28/03 13:44:56 Pacific Standard Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > About the pre-oilers: is that a continuous pressure pump or does it empty a > reservoir once only into the oil lines? Continuous, as far as I know. Brock? Can you verify? If not, I'll contact the fellow who had them installed. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:28 PM PST US From: "Tylor Hall" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tylor Hall" Oilmatic makes a preoiler system that you turn on manually prior to start of the engine. At engine shut down, you would then turn on the system to keep oil flowing to things like turbos to cool them. http://www.oilamatic.com/ I spoke with them to day and it would not be a big deal to add the Twin Commander to his existing STC's. Regards, Tylor Hall Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc. 2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO 970-731-2127 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Shut 'em down ... start 'em up? --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 10/28/03 13:44:56 Pacific Standard Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > About the pre-oilers: is that a continuous pressure pump or does it empty a > reservoir once only into the oil lines? Continuous, as far as I know. Brock? Can you verify? If not, I'll contact the fellow who had them installed. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:14 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Experimental Exhibition From: Barry Hancock --> Commander-List message posted by: Barry Hancock Now you've done it....pushing my buttons again. On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server wrote: > So, if you've got a 520 you're > out of luck, but if you're flying an Experimental Exhibition certified > Stidestrander-Chuffington, literally the sky's the limit. Yeah, for a 300 NM limit from your home base. Experimental Exhibition is one of the most restrictive certifications the FAA lowers on us. Go figure, a Nanchang CJ-6A that has been in production for almost 50 years with no substantive design changes, zero structural failures, and is built in the same factory that builds center sections for Boeing has a 300 mile limit. Joe Pilot builds his first ever kit plane and he can scoot across this glorious land as he pleases. No one ever said common sense or practicality every had anything to do with GOVERNMENT regulations. Just how the heck is a 300 nm restriction protecting the public???? Barry Hancock Director of Operations Red Stars, Inc. 949.300.5510 www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:06 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Experimental Exhibition --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 10/28/03 18:56:52 Pacific Standard Time, radialpower@cox.net writes: > No one ever said common sense or practicality every had anything to do > with GOVERNMENT regulations. Just how the heck is a 300 nm restriction > protecting the public???? > The government is located 301 miles away. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:54 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: IMC From: Barry Hancock --> Commander-List message posted by: Barry Hancock I live roughly 50 miles from the closest fire in CA and it was IMC here all day....amazing. Barry Hancock Director of Operations Red Stars, Inc. 949.300.5510 www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"