Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:18 AM - 680 Questions from a long time lurker (Craig)
2. 06:36 AM - Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker (Harry Merritt)
3. 07:57 AM - Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker (Barry Collman)
4. 08:08 AM - Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker (Buddy Windham)
5. 09:24 AM - Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker (Harry Merritt)
6. 10:09 AM - Questions from a lurker (Deneal Schilmeister (Portege))
7. 10:47 AM - Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker (CloudCraft@aol.com)
8. 11:29 AM - Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
9. 02:41 PM - Re: Questions from a lurker (Barry Collman)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 680 Questions from a long time lurker |
--> Commander-List message posted by: Craig <cvairwerks@ev1.net>
Hey guys...Been lurking for a while and finally got to the point that I have
some questions. These are mostly directed at those with 680/680E experience,
but any help is appreciated.
I recently picked up N265X as a project. Bought it knowing that the engines
and props are gone and the panel is bare. I need a cabin class a/c
eventually for family travel, but didn't want to buy a flyer for a number of
reasons. Although the logs are gone, from the pictures that I have, the
airframe doesn't appear to be real high time. From the historical data that
I have, she has been grounded without engines since somewhere around 1980.
I'm headed out to give the airframe a good inspection late this month and
make the final decision on restoration or breaking her up for parts. Just so
you have an idea, I'm a heavy structures/flight mechanic for Lockheed and
have been working on restorations for over 25 years....Now to the big
questions...
1. 680 vs. 680E Is it worth the time and effort to incorporate the upgrade
on the wing from the stock 680 wing to the E model wing. Does the 500# gross
increase justify the 100# or so increase in the empty weight? How about
handling characteristics? We will be operating probably 5-700# under gross
off of 3000' of grass most of the time. Both strips are below 1600MSL.
2. Spar inspections 265X appears to have not had the inspections done based
on historical records. If she hasn't be cut for the inspections, can they be
done by boresope or x-ray until a repair is needed or should I just plan on
opening the wings up anyway?
3. Glancing through the STC's it appears that Rockwell got an STC to replace
the GSO's with PT-6's. Outside of the a/c used for the STC, were any others
converted and if so how did they stack up against the standard a/c?
Following on that, has anyone looked at essentially doing the same STC but
substituting W 601's instead?
Looking forward to others thoughts and experiences......
Craig Cantwell
cvairwerks@ev1.net
Horseshoe Bend AIrport
Weatherford, Tx.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Harry Merritt" <avtec2@bellsouth.net>
Please call Me I Have 2 680'S
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig" <cvairwerks@ev1.net>
Subject: Commander-List: 680 Questions from a long time lurker
> --> Commander-List message posted by: Craig <cvairwerks@ev1.net>
>
>
> Hey guys...Been lurking for a while and finally got to the point that I
have
> some questions. These are mostly directed at those with 680/680E
experience,
> but any help is appreciated.
>
> I recently picked up N265X as a project. Bought it knowing that the
engines
> and props are gone and the panel is bare. I need a cabin class a/c
> eventually for family travel, but didn't want to buy a flyer for a number
of
> reasons. Although the logs are gone, from the pictures that I have, the
> airframe doesn't appear to be real high time. From the historical data
that
> I have, she has been grounded without engines since somewhere around 1980.
> I'm headed out to give the airframe a good inspection late this month and
> make the final decision on restoration or breaking her up for parts. Just
so
> you have an idea, I'm a heavy structures/flight mechanic for Lockheed and
> have been working on restorations for over 25 years....Now to the big
> questions...
>
> 1. 680 vs. 680E Is it worth the time and effort to incorporate the upgrade
> on the wing from the stock 680 wing to the E model wing. Does the 500#
gross
> increase justify the 100# or so increase in the empty weight? How about
> handling characteristics? We will be operating probably 5-700# under gross
> off of 3000' of grass most of the time. Both strips are below 1600MSL.
>
> 2. Spar inspections 265X appears to have not had the inspections done
based
> on historical records. If she hasn't be cut for the inspections, can they
be
> done by boresope or x-ray until a repair is needed or should I just plan
on
> opening the wings up anyway?
>
> 3. Glancing through the STC's it appears that Rockwell got an STC to
replace
> the GSO's with PT-6's. Outside of the a/c used for the STC, were any
others
> converted and if so how did they stack up against the standard a/c?
>
> Following on that, has anyone looked at essentially doing the same STC but
> substituting W 601's instead?
>
> Looking forward to others thoughts and experiences......
>
> Craig Cantwell
> cvairwerks@ev1.net
> Horseshoe Bend AIrport
> Weatherford, Tx.
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker |
MAILER-TRACE: 0
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Craig,
I'll leave it to the experts to answer the majority of your questions, but the
one I can answer concerns the PT6 engines.
These were installed on a Turbo Commander, a Model 680T. However, after a period
of operating the PT6A-20's it was found that the heat from their exhaust was
damaging the front spar, so Rockwell cooled down on the idea.
The 680/680E both had the Lycoming GSO-480-A1A6 or -B1A6 engines.
N265X is serial number 353-43 (the 353rd Commander overall and the 43rd Model
680). It was Certificated on July 6th 1956 and was 'abandoned' in August 1983 by
Norcor of America Inc., who went out of business. A Court Order declared
ownership be vested in the name of Richard Du Four, but this was overturned, and
it was purchased by T&G Aviation Inc in July 1990. It has remained at Chandler,
Arizona, ever since.
Good Luck with the project if you decide to go ahead. It will be great to know
that a near-vintage Commander will be rescued.
Very Best Regards,
Barry Collman
Aero Commander Historian (UK)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig" <cvairwerks@ev1.net>
Subject: Commander-List: 680 Questions from a long time lurker
| --> Commander-List message posted by: Craig <cvairwerks@ev1.net>
|
|
| Hey guys...Been lurking for a while and finally got to the point that I have
| some questions. These are mostly directed at those with 680/680E experience,
| but any help is appreciated.
|
| I recently picked up N265X as a project. Bought it knowing that the engines
| and props are gone and the panel is bare. I need a cabin class a/c
| eventually for family travel, but didn't want to buy a flyer for a number of
| reasons. Although the logs are gone, from the pictures that I have, the
| airframe doesn't appear to be real high time. From the historical data that
| I have, she has been grounded without engines since somewhere around 1980.
| I'm headed out to give the airframe a good inspection late this month and
| make the final decision on restoration or breaking her up for parts. Just so
| you have an idea, I'm a heavy structures/flight mechanic for Lockheed and
| have been working on restorations for over 25 years....Now to the big
| questions...
|
| 1. 680 vs. 680E Is it worth the time and effort to incorporate the upgrade
| on the wing from the stock 680 wing to the E model wing. Does the 500# gross
| increase justify the 100# or so increase in the empty weight? How about
| handling characteristics? We will be operating probably 5-700# under gross
| off of 3000' of grass most of the time. Both strips are below 1600MSL.
|
| 2. Spar inspections 265X appears to have not had the inspections done based
| on historical records. If she hasn't be cut for the inspections, can they be
| done by boresope or x-ray until a repair is needed or should I just plan on
| opening the wings up anyway?
|
| 3. Glancing through the STC's it appears that Rockwell got an STC to replace
| the GSO's with PT-6's. Outside of the a/c used for the STC, were any others
| converted and if so how did they stack up against the standard a/c?
|
| Following on that, has anyone looked at essentially doing the same STC but
| substituting W 601's instead?
|
| Looking forward to others thoughts and experiences......
|
| Craig Cantwell
| cvairwerks@ev1.net
| Horseshoe Bend AIrport
| Weatherford, Tx.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message 4
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|
| Subject: | Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker |
--> Commander-List message posted by: Buddy Windham <bw_cycon@yahoo.com>
Harry, are you getting my email......Respond asap.
Harry Merritt <avtec2@bellsouth.net> wrote:--> Commander-List message posted by:
"Harry Merritt"
Please call Me I Have 2 680'S
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig"
Subject: Commander-List: 680 Questions from a long time lurker
> --> Commander-List message posted by: Craig
>
>
> Hey guys...Been lurking for a while and finally got to the point that I
have
> some questions. These are mostly directed at those with 680/680E
experience,
> but any help is appreciated.
>
> I recently picked up N265X as a project. Bought it knowing that the
engines
> and props are gone and the panel is bare. I need a cabin class a/c
> eventually for family travel, but didn't want to buy a flyer for a number
of
> reasons. Although the logs are gone, from the pictures that I have, the
> airframe doesn't appear to be real high time. From the historical data
that
> I have, she has been grounded without engines since somewhere around 1980.
> I'm headed out to give the airframe a good inspection late this month and
> make the final decision on restoration or breaking her up for parts. Just
so
> you have an idea, I'm a heavy structures/flight mechanic for Lockheed and
> have been working on restorations for over 25 years....Now to the big
> questions...
>
> 1. 680 vs. 680E Is it worth the time and effort to incorporate the upgrade
> on the wing from the stock 680 wing to the E model wing. Does the 500#
gross
> increase justify the 100# or so increase in the empty weight? How about
> handling characteristics? We will be operating probably 5-700# under gross
> off of 3000' of grass most of the time. Both strips are below 1600MSL.
>
> 2. Spar inspections 265X appears to have not had the inspections done
based
> on historical records. If she hasn't be cut for the inspections, can they
be
> done by boresope or x-ray until a repair is needed or should I just plan
on
> opening the wings up anyway?
>
> 3. Glancing through the STC's it appears that Rockwell got an STC to
replace
> the GSO's with PT-6's. Outside of the a/c used for the STC, were any
others
> converted and if so how did they stack up against the standard a/c?
>
> Following on that, has anyone looked at essentially doing the same STC but
> substituting W 601's instead?
>
> Looking forward to others thoughts and experiences......
>
> Craig Cantwell
> cvairwerks@ev1.net
> Horseshoe Bend AIrport
> Weatherford, Tx.
>
>
Buddy Windham, President
Cycon Enterprises, Inc.
General Contractors/Construction Management/Design Build Services
0-608 Quincy Street S.W.
Grandville, Michigan 49418
616 896-6488 office
616 896-6490 fax
Message 5
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|
| Subject: | Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Harry Merritt" <avtec2@bellsouth.net>
Yep
----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddy Windham" <bw_cycon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680 Questions from a long time lurker
> --> Commander-List message posted by: Buddy Windham <bw_cycon@yahoo.com>
>
> Harry, are you getting my email......Respond asap.
>
> Harry Merritt <avtec2@bellsouth.net> wrote:--> Commander-List message
posted by: "Harry Merritt"
>
> Please call Me I Have 2 680'S
> Harry
> 321 267-3141
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig"
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: 680 Questions from a long time lurker
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: Craig
> >
> >
> > Hey guys...Been lurking for a while and finally got to the point that I
> have
> > some questions. These are mostly directed at those with 680/680E
> experience,
> > but any help is appreciated.
> >
> > I recently picked up N265X as a project. Bought it knowing that the
> engines
> > and props are gone and the panel is bare. I need a cabin class a/c
> > eventually for family travel, but didn't want to buy a flyer for a
number
> of
> > reasons. Although the logs are gone, from the pictures that I have, the
> > airframe doesn't appear to be real high time. From the historical data
> that
> > I have, she has been grounded without engines since somewhere around
1980.
> > I'm headed out to give the airframe a good inspection late this month
and
> > make the final decision on restoration or breaking her up for parts.
Just
> so
> > you have an idea, I'm a heavy structures/flight mechanic for Lockheed
and
> > have been working on restorations for over 25 years....Now to the big
> > questions...
> >
> > 1. 680 vs. 680E Is it worth the time and effort to incorporate the
upgrade
> > on the wing from the stock 680 wing to the E model wing. Does the 500#
> gross
> > increase justify the 100# or so increase in the empty weight? How about
> > handling characteristics? We will be operating probably 5-700# under
gross
> > off of 3000' of grass most of the time. Both strips are below 1600MSL.
> >
> > 2. Spar inspections 265X appears to have not had the inspections done
> based
> > on historical records. If she hasn't be cut for the inspections, can
they
> be
> > done by boresope or x-ray until a repair is needed or should I just plan
> on
> > opening the wings up anyway?
> >
> > 3. Glancing through the STC's it appears that Rockwell got an STC to
> replace
> > the GSO's with PT-6's. Outside of the a/c used for the STC, were any
> others
> > converted and if so how did they stack up against the standard a/c?
> >
> > Following on that, has anyone looked at essentially doing the same STC
but
> > substituting W 601's instead?
> >
> > Looking forward to others thoughts and experiences......
> >
> > Craig Cantwell
> > cvairwerks@ev1.net
> > Horseshoe Bend AIrport
> > Weatherford, Tx.
> >
> >
>
>
> Buddy Windham, President
>
> Cycon Enterprises, Inc.
> General Contractors/Construction Management/Design Build Services
>
> 0-608 Quincy Street S.W.
> Grandville, Michigan 49418
> 616 896-6488 office
> 616 896-6490 fax
>
>
Message 6
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|
| Subject: | Questions from a lurker |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (Portege)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
Another lurker here.
Since Barry is the Commander Historian, I was wondering if he might know
where some of the Commanders I've flown ended up.
I first learned about Commanders flying 2nd seat in a 196? 560F. It was
bought new by Magnavox Corp and was registered as N580M until the owner
I flew with bought a 680V and transferred that tail number to the 680V.
No big deal, Just thought I'd ask. Thanks
Deneal Schilmeister (fka Captain Smiley)
St. Louis & Cincinnati
http://homepage.mac.com/deneals
> -----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Barry Collman
> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 10:03 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680 Questions from a long time lurker
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman"
<barry.collman@air-
> britain.co.uk>
<snip>
> N265X is serial number 353-43 (the 353rd Commander overall and the
43rd
> Model
> 680). It was Certificated on July 6th 1956 and was 'abandoned' in
August
> 1983 by
> Norcor of America Inc., who went out of business. A Court Order
declared
> ownership be vested in the name of Richard Du Four, but this was
> overturned, and
> it was purchased by T&G Aviation Inc in July 1990. It has remained at
> Chandler,
> Arizona, ever since.
>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
Hello Craig,
Let the adventure begin .... !
Sir Barry has answered your question(s) regarding the PT-6 installation on
the Commander airframe.
The structural reason for not hanging a PT-6 (or a copy of it) is now pretty
evident. The practical side is that you just won't have much range given the
PT-6 SFC and the altitudes you'll be flying a 680/680E at.
Also, the factory experiment was with a long body, so you'd have to go
through a lot of certification and flight test for a short body model as you
couldn't ride on the STC's coattails.
Should you extend the wing? The factory did. If you're mission is an
unimproved strip I'd advocate the long wing. I also like the slow speed handling
characteristics (and stall) of the long wing.
But I'll go easy on your trust fund. If you keep the original wing, you
won't be lacking much that you'd really notice unless you had broad experience
in
several other models and were judging on a more subtle scale.
Spend big on your engines, props and panel. Keep a photo or video journal of
the restoration as there will be a lot in interest in what you do and how you
do it.
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 680 Questions from a long time lurker |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 1/4/2004 10:47:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
CloudCraft@aol.com writes:
Should you extend the wing? The factory did.
I think the only people who can extend the wing is the factory?? I don't
believe anyone else was approved. I would not spend the $$ myself. jb
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Questions from a lurker |
MAILER-TRACE: 0
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Deneal,
N580M was indeed a Model 560F, serial number 1175-42. It was originally
registered N6287X (Certificated April 1962), then N141K, N580M, N7441B. The last
I knew of it was that it was purchased on January 31st 1978 by Aircraft Sales
Inc., of Charlotte, North Carolina.
It is then reported as having had an accident and burned on February 16th 1978,
but the details, such as location and circumstances, have eluded me to date. The
remains were reportedly with William Air Service, Fort Pierce, Florida, so that
may give a clue as to the location of its demise.
By direct email to yourself, I'm attaching an .xls file with the history. Let me
know any other serial/tail numbers and I'll send similar files.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (Portege)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Questions from a lurker
| --> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (Portege)"
<deneals@sbcglobal.net>
|
| Another lurker here.
|
| Since Barry is the Commander Historian, I was wondering if he might know
| where some of the Commanders I've flown ended up.
|
| I first learned about Commanders flying 2nd seat in a 196? 560F. It was
| bought new by Magnavox Corp and was registered as N580M until the owner
| I flew with bought a 680V and transferred that tail number to the 680V.
|
| No big deal, Just thought I'd ask. Thanks
|
|
| Deneal Schilmeister (fka Captain Smiley)
| St. Louis & Cincinnati
| http://homepage.mac.com/deneals
|
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| On Behalf Of Barry Collman
| > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 10:03 AM
| > To: commander-list@matronics.com
| > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680 Questions from a long time lurker
| >
| > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman"
| <barry.collman@air-
| > britain.co.uk>
|
| <snip>
|
| > N265X is serial number 353-43 (the 353rd Commander overall and the
| 43rd
| > Model
| > 680). It was Certificated on July 6th 1956 and was 'abandoned' in
| August
| > 1983 by
| > Norcor of America Inc., who went out of business. A Court Order
| declared
| > ownership be vested in the name of Richard Du Four, but this was
| > overturned, and
| > it was purchased by T&G Aviation Inc in July 1990. It has remained at
| > Chandler,
| > Arizona, ever since.
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
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