Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:14 AM - 500 (alh1@juno.com)
2. 07:52 AM - Re: 500 (Tom Fisher)
3. 08:42 AM - Re: VH-EXU (css nico)
4. 08:48 AM - Re: VH-EXU (CloudCraft@aol.com)
5. 09:45 AM - Re: Commander-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 02/24/04 (Robert C. Bullock)
6. 10:06 AM - Re: 500 (Barry Collman)
7. 10:08 AM - MEI will travel to your location for initial and recurrent. (ProgSearch@aol.com)
8. 11:04 AM - Re: 500 (Tom Fisher)
9. 02:59 PM - Re: VH-EXU (W J R HAMILTON)
10. 03:06 PM - Re: 500 (alh1@juno.com)
Message 1
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--> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com
hi barry, i did not have the dimension that you needed, but i went to the airport
and measured it. i cannot guarantee that the aircraft was level as far as
the strut height was concerned, but the floor is level and i measured both tips
to make sure they were the same. the measurement from the floor to the elevator
tip is 98 inches. it was the same on both sides. i cannot imagine who would
want this information.
the gross weight is 6000 pounds. the empty weight varies with the installed equipment,
but is normally about 4300 pounds. that leaves 1700 pounds for gas, passengers
and baggage.
there is no landing weight, the aircraft is limited to 6000 pounds gross for takeoff
and landing. i don't have the email in front of me so i hope this answers
the questions. the total fuel is 156 on all of them at 6 pounds per gallon
or 936 pounds, leaving 764 for passengers and baggage. there may be a modification
to add fuel, but if you have four big people at 170 pounds, you either
add two kids, forget the other three adults or leave some fuel behind.
all twin engine piston aircraft are certified by having a test pilot shut down
one engine, have the airplane loaded to what the engineers think is gross weight
and then see if the airplane will climb on one engine at 50 feet per minute
at altitude. if it climbs more than that, they continue to increase the weight
until it just barely meets the standard. that becomes the gross weight. as
long as both engines are running, you have no problems, just don't let the good
engine quit and have to fly home on the bad engine.
if i have not expressed my appreciation for all your work i want to say thank you
now. have a good day and let me know if you need more information. i decided
to send this to the entire list as my comments usually generate controversy,
which adds at times to the knowledge base. (other times it makes me mad as
he**, but that is another story) I also wonder if bill bow is flying again.
what say bill?
al hoffman
Message 2
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Al, I am curious as to what the questions were to prompt you to measure what
you did.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <alh1@juno.com>
Subject: Commander-List: 500
> --> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com
>
>
> hi barry, i did not have the dimension that you needed, but i went to the
airport and measured it. i cannot guarantee that the aircraft was level as
far as the strut height was concerned, but the floor is level and i measured
both tips to make sure they were the same. the measurement from the floor
to the elevator tip is 98 inches. it was the same on both sides. i cannot
imagine who would want this information.
>
> the gross weight is 6000 pounds. the empty weight varies with the
installed equipment, but is normally about 4300 pounds. that leaves 1700
pounds for gas, passengers and baggage.
>
> there is no landing weight, the aircraft is limited to 6000 pounds gross
for takeoff and landing. i don't have the email in front of me so i hope
this answers the questions. the total fuel is 156 on all of them at 6
pounds per gallon or 936 pounds, leaving 764 for passengers and baggage.
there may be a modification to add fuel, but if you have four big people at
170 pounds, you either add two kids, forget the other three adults or leave
some fuel behind.
>
> all twin engine piston aircraft are certified by having a test pilot shut
down one engine, have the airplane loaded to what the engineers think is
gross weight and then see if the airplane will climb on one engine at 50
feet per minute at altitude. if it climbs more than that, they continue to
increase the weight until it just barely meets the standard. that becomes
the gross weight. as long as both engines are running, you have no
problems, just don't let the good engine quit and have to fly home on the
bad engine.
>
> if i have not expressed my appreciation for all your work i want to say
thank you now. have a good day and let me know if you need more
information. i decided to send this to the entire list as my comments
usually generate controversy, which adds at times to the knowledge base.
(other times it makes me mad as he**, but that is another story) I also
wonder if bill bow is flying again. what say bill?
>
> al hoffman
>
>
Message 3
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Yes, now I remember, thank you.
When Michael Jackson's plane (I believe it was a Falcon) landed here in
Southern California for his arraignment in Santa Barbara, a news chopper
showed the Falcon land and what astonished me was the apparent
(considerable) movement of the 'T'-tail visible on the footage. Because of
the plane's track record it appears to be safe but the sight of that control
surface wabbling like that was not comforting. It must be under a lot of
stress if the rudder is kicked back and forth, especially on a larger
airframe.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Stubbs" <br549phil@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Phil Stubbs"
<br549phil@mindspring.com>
>
> An AA Airbus 300 over long Island departed JFK one minute fifty seconds
> behind a 747, encountered wake vortex from the heavy, did several
complete
> ruder reversals and the composite tail broke off.. Airbus neglected to
> inform operators of cracks found previousley on two A300's. Our training
> and Boeings legal department responded by asking us to limit rudder use.
> They have since backed off somewhat of this ludicrus request. Bottom
line,
> tail sections are not stressed for reversals.
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: css nico <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Date: 2/24/2004 11:43:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
> <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> > Didn't an airliner suffer a tail malfunction due to extreme control use
> > recently? At least that was what the board of inquiry suggested. Cannot
> > remember the details.
> > Nico
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Commander-List: VH-EXU
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman"
> > <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
> > >
> > > Hi Russell,
> > >
> > > Gil White has a possible lead for VH-EXU. The other two - nothing new.
> > >
> > > Evidently, E S Gooch has a listing in the White Pages as 3 Healy
Street,
> > Port Denison, Western Australia. Port Denison is in the general area of
> > Three Springs which Edgar Sidney Gooch gave to the Department of Civil
> > Aviation for registration purposes over 30 years ago.
> > >
> > > The phone number is 08 9927-1799.
> > >
> > > Would it be worth giving him a call?
> > >
> > > Re VH-LST, the possibility of structural failure is real bad news.
But,
> > tails don't just come off on Commanders. If it did, the likely scenario
is
> > through the pilot inducing an over-stress through extreme use of the
> > controls.
> > >
> > > Very Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 02/25/04 08:43:21 Pacific Standard Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
a news chopper
showed the Falcon land and what astonished me was the apparent
(considerable) movement of the 'T'-tail visible on the footage.
That was a Gulfstream. Falcon tails do not wobble.
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: Commander-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 02/24/04 |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert C. Bullock" <rcbullock@cox.net>
Actually it seems I read somewhere that the Va speeds were not computed for
the tail sections on certified aircraft (all or CAR 23 only, or what I do
not recall), which is important when you are deflecting the controls fully,
obviously. I also seem to remember that the popular current theory is due to
that and the Airbus crash, you should not use rudder to correct for yaw
excursions (and I think just in cruise, obv. You need it for Xwind landings
and such). The logic being that a big gust/turbulence followed rapid full
rudder input to counteract is bad juju at cruise speed.
Did I imagine this recommendation? Did a quick google search but didn't find
it. But I did find that Va is computed, not verified I guess for obvious
reasons.
----
Good review:
From an aerodynamic standpoint, Bob explained that Va is a speed that is
poorly understood by many pilots. Most of have been taught to use Va as a
turbulence penetration speed. But Va is not a manufacturer-recommended
turbulence penetration speed, and in fact there is no requirement that a
turbulence penetration speed be published for Part 23 aircraft. (The
situation is different for Part 25 aircraft like bizjets.) Unless you plan
to do snap rolls or other abrupt-control-deflection maneuvers, Va is a
figure that has little relevance to everyday flying.
Va is a purely theoretical figure that represents the maximum speed at which
abrupt control deflection will not stress the aircraft beyond its designed
load limit. But Va is not a speed determined from flight test, is not
verified during FAA certification, and is never required to be demonstrated
by the manufacturer. Bob pointed out that if you attempted to verify Va by
intentionally stalling the aircraft at Va at the design load limit of the
airframe, you'd have to enter the maneuver at an airspeed significantly
higher than Va, then perform an abrupt pull-up or accelerated stall that
would produce load-limit G-forces and reduce the airspeed to Va precisely at
the point where the airplane stalled.
Va as published in the POH is a computed figure based on maximum aircraft
weight. At lower weights, Vs is lower and therefore Va is also lower. The
aerodynamic effect of VGs on manuvering speed is substantially identical to
the effect of flying at less than maximum weight.
Time: 04:23:00 PM PST US
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Bottom line,
> tail sections are not stressed for reversals.
Not stressed on those "Hugo" jets.
The world flys on BOEING.
bilbo
Message 6
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Tom, et al,
Al was answering a question from me as to what the height is on a Model 500 from
the ground to the tip of the horizontal tail (we call then "tailplanes" over
here).
This is because I'm compiling 'Fact Files' on each Model built (and later, not
built) in preparation for "The Book".
As Al said, why anybody would want that figure beats me, but it is quoted in the
Maintenance Manual for the Model 720 Alti-Cruiser. If a figure is quoted
somewhere like that, I try and get it for all Models, quoted in the M/M or not.
The Fact File tables cover:
Dimensions
Performance
Weights & Balance
Control Surface Movements
Engines
Propellers
Engine/Prop Combinations
Production (by Year)
Current Fleet Status
ADs.
All good fun and stops me spending money n the Pub each night!
Very Best Regards,
Barry C (UK)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500
| --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
|
| Al, I am curious as to what the questions were to prompt you to measure what
| you did.
| Tom F.
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: <alh1@juno.com>
| To: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
| Subject: Commander-List: 500
|
|
| > --> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com
| >
| >
| > hi barry, i did not have the dimension that you needed, but i went to the
| airport and measured it. i cannot guarantee that the aircraft was level as
| far as the strut height was concerned, but the floor is level and i measured
| both tips to make sure they were the same. the measurement from the floor
| to the elevator tip is 98 inches. it was the same on both sides. i cannot
| imagine who would want this information.
| >
| > the gross weight is 6000 pounds. the empty weight varies with the
| installed equipment, but is normally about 4300 pounds. that leaves 1700
| pounds for gas, passengers and baggage.
| >
| > there is no landing weight, the aircraft is limited to 6000 pounds gross
| for takeoff and landing. i don't have the email in front of me so i hope
| this answers the questions. the total fuel is 156 on all of them at 6
| pounds per gallon or 936 pounds, leaving 764 for passengers and baggage.
| there may be a modification to add fuel, but if you have four big people at
| 170 pounds, you either add two kids, forget the other three adults or leave
| some fuel behind.
| >
| > all twin engine piston aircraft are certified by having a test pilot shut
| down one engine, have the airplane loaded to what the engineers think is
| gross weight and then see if the airplane will climb on one engine at 50
| feet per minute at altitude. if it climbs more than that, they continue to
| increase the weight until it just barely meets the standard. that becomes
| the gross weight. as long as both engines are running, you have no
| problems, just don't let the good engine quit and have to fly home on the
| bad engine.
| >
| > if i have not expressed my appreciation for all your work i want to say
| thank you now. have a good day and let me know if you need more
| information. i decided to send this to the entire list as my comments
| usually generate controversy, which adds at times to the knowledge base.
| (other times it makes me mad as he**, but that is another story) I also
| wonder if bill bow is flying again. what say bill?
| >
| > al hoffman
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message 7
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| Subject: | MEI will travel to your location for initial and recurrent. |
--> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com
Hello listers,
I have completed my instructors tickets and am available for initial and
recurrent training in your commander. I have flown the 500 A, B, U, & S the 560F,
the 680FP, the 680FL, and the 685. Several with Mr RPM and Merlyn
conversions.
I am willing to travel to your location provided you pick up the expenses.
I am completing a training syllabus that you can provide your insurance
company with to get the approval.
Call me for a quote.
You may reach me at my office: 859-689-9046 Home; 859-689-1765,
Cell 859-992-6920
or emails; progsearch@aol.com or kevincoons@cavucompanies.net (preferred
email address)
Kevin Coons
Message 8
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Thanks Barry, put me on the list.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman"
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> Hi Tom, et al,
>
> Al was answering a question from me as to what the height is on a Model
500 from
> the ground to the tip of the horizontal tail (we call then "tailplanes"
over
> here).
>
> This is because I'm compiling 'Fact Files' on each Model built (and later,
not
> built) in preparation for "The Book".
>
> As Al said, why anybody would want that figure beats me, but it is quoted
in the
> Maintenance Manual for the Model 720 Alti-Cruiser. If a figure is quoted
> somewhere like that, I try and get it for all Models, quoted in the M/M or
not.
>
> The Fact File tables cover:
> Dimensions
> Performance
> Weights & Balance
> Control Surface Movements
> Engines
> Propellers
> Engine/Prop Combinations
> Production (by Year)
> Current Fleet Status
> ADs.
>
> All good fun and stops me spending money n the Pub each night!
>
> Very Best Regards,
>
> Barry C (UK)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500
>
>
> <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
what
the
as
measured
floor
cannot
1700
gross
hope
at
leave
shut
to
becomes
the
say
>
>
Message 9
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--> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
Nico,
American Airlines A300-600, KJFK, rapid reversal of the rudder in a wake
turbulence encounter. The jury is out as to whether the control inputs were
pilot inputs, or yaw damper inputs, or a combination of both.
The details go to thousands of pages.
Unrelated to the above, every military pilot knows, but few civil pilots
understand, the effect of "rolling G" on structural limits of an airframe,
in short the G limits in a turn are not the G limits straight and level,
which are the G limits in the AFM.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
At 03:14 25/02/2004, you wrote:
>--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
>Didn't an airliner suffer a tail malfunction due to extreme control use
>recently? At least that was what the board of inquiry suggested. Cannot
>remember the details.
>Nico
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Commander-List: VH-EXU
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman"
><barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
> >
> > Hi Russell,
> >
> > Gil White has a possible lead for VH-EXU. The other two - nothing new.
> >
> > Evidently, E S Gooch has a listing in the White Pages as 3 Healy Street,
>Port Denison, Western Australia. Port Denison is in the general area of
>Three Springs which Edgar Sidney Gooch gave to the Department of Civil
>Aviation for registration purposes over 30 years ago.
> >
> > The phone number is 08 9927-1799.
> >
> > Would it be worth giving him a call?
> >
> > Re VH-LST, the possibility of structural failure is real bad news. But,
>tails don't just come off on Commanders. If it did, the likely scenario is
>through the pilot inducing an over-stress through extreme use of the
>controls.
> >
> > Very Best Regards,
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
>
>
COMMUNICATIONS CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies, W.J.R.Hamilton,
Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
<wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
<fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
three months, the date will be notified.
Message 10
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--> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com
hi tom, barry wanted to know the distance from the floor to the tip of the elevators.
he also wanted to know the empty weight, the landing weight limit, if
any and i think that is it. al hoffman
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