---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/25/04: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:14 AM - 500 (alh1@juno.com) 2. 07:52 AM - Re: 500 (Tom Fisher) 3. 08:42 AM - Re: VH-EXU (css nico) 4. 08:48 AM - Re: VH-EXU (CloudCraft@aol.com) 5. 09:45 AM - Re: Commander-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 02/24/04 (Robert C. Bullock) 6. 10:06 AM - Re: 500 (Barry Collman) 7. 10:08 AM - MEI will travel to your location for initial and recurrent. (ProgSearch@aol.com) 8. 11:04 AM - Re: 500 (Tom Fisher) 9. 02:59 PM - Re: VH-EXU (W J R HAMILTON) 10. 03:06 PM - Re: 500 (alh1@juno.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:46 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: 500 From: alh1@juno.com --> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com hi barry, i did not have the dimension that you needed, but i went to the airport and measured it. i cannot guarantee that the aircraft was level as far as the strut height was concerned, but the floor is level and i measured both tips to make sure they were the same. the measurement from the floor to the elevator tip is 98 inches. it was the same on both sides. i cannot imagine who would want this information. the gross weight is 6000 pounds. the empty weight varies with the installed equipment, but is normally about 4300 pounds. that leaves 1700 pounds for gas, passengers and baggage. there is no landing weight, the aircraft is limited to 6000 pounds gross for takeoff and landing. i don't have the email in front of me so i hope this answers the questions. the total fuel is 156 on all of them at 6 pounds per gallon or 936 pounds, leaving 764 for passengers and baggage. there may be a modification to add fuel, but if you have four big people at 170 pounds, you either add two kids, forget the other three adults or leave some fuel behind. all twin engine piston aircraft are certified by having a test pilot shut down one engine, have the airplane loaded to what the engineers think is gross weight and then see if the airplane will climb on one engine at 50 feet per minute at altitude. if it climbs more than that, they continue to increase the weight until it just barely meets the standard. that becomes the gross weight. as long as both engines are running, you have no problems, just don't let the good engine quit and have to fly home on the bad engine. if i have not expressed my appreciation for all your work i want to say thank you now. have a good day and let me know if you need more information. i decided to send this to the entire list as my comments usually generate controversy, which adds at times to the knowledge base. (other times it makes me mad as he**, but that is another story) I also wonder if bill bow is flying again. what say bill? al hoffman ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:55 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Al, I am curious as to what the questions were to prompt you to measure what you did. Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: 500 > --> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com > > > hi barry, i did not have the dimension that you needed, but i went to the airport and measured it. i cannot guarantee that the aircraft was level as far as the strut height was concerned, but the floor is level and i measured both tips to make sure they were the same. the measurement from the floor to the elevator tip is 98 inches. it was the same on both sides. i cannot imagine who would want this information. > > the gross weight is 6000 pounds. the empty weight varies with the installed equipment, but is normally about 4300 pounds. that leaves 1700 pounds for gas, passengers and baggage. > > there is no landing weight, the aircraft is limited to 6000 pounds gross for takeoff and landing. i don't have the email in front of me so i hope this answers the questions. the total fuel is 156 on all of them at 6 pounds per gallon or 936 pounds, leaving 764 for passengers and baggage. there may be a modification to add fuel, but if you have four big people at 170 pounds, you either add two kids, forget the other three adults or leave some fuel behind. > > all twin engine piston aircraft are certified by having a test pilot shut down one engine, have the airplane loaded to what the engineers think is gross weight and then see if the airplane will climb on one engine at 50 feet per minute at altitude. if it climbs more than that, they continue to increase the weight until it just barely meets the standard. that becomes the gross weight. as long as both engines are running, you have no problems, just don't let the good engine quit and have to fly home on the bad engine. > > if i have not expressed my appreciation for all your work i want to say thank you now. have a good day and let me know if you need more information. i decided to send this to the entire list as my comments usually generate controversy, which adds at times to the knowledge base. (other times it makes me mad as he**, but that is another story) I also wonder if bill bow is flying again. what say bill? > > al hoffman > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:35 AM PST US From: "css nico" Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" Yes, now I remember, thank you. When Michael Jackson's plane (I believe it was a Falcon) landed here in Southern California for his arraignment in Santa Barbara, a news chopper showed the Falcon land and what astonished me was the apparent (considerable) movement of the 'T'-tail visible on the footage. Because of the plane's track record it appears to be safe but the sight of that control surface wabbling like that was not comforting. It must be under a lot of stress if the rudder is kicked back and forth, especially on a larger airframe. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Stubbs" Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Phil Stubbs" > > An AA Airbus 300 over long Island departed JFK one minute fifty seconds > behind a 747, encountered wake vortex from the heavy, did several complete > ruder reversals and the composite tail broke off.. Airbus neglected to > inform operators of cracks found previousley on two A300's. Our training > and Boeings legal department responded by asking us to limit rudder use. > They have since backed off somewhat of this ludicrus request. Bottom line, > tail sections are not stressed for reversals. > > > > [Original Message] > > From: css nico > > To: > > Date: 2/24/2004 11:43:53 AM > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" > > > > > Didn't an airliner suffer a tail malfunction due to extreme control use > > recently? At least that was what the board of inquiry suggested. Cannot > > remember the details. > > Nico > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Barry Collman" > > To: > > Subject: Commander-List: VH-EXU > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" > > > > > > > > Hi Russell, > > > > > > Gil White has a possible lead for VH-EXU. The other two - nothing new. > > > > > > Evidently, E S Gooch has a listing in the White Pages as 3 Healy Street, > > Port Denison, Western Australia. Port Denison is in the general area of > > Three Springs which Edgar Sidney Gooch gave to the Department of Civil > > Aviation for registration purposes over 30 years ago. > > > > > > The phone number is 08 9927-1799. > > > > > > Would it be worth giving him a call? > > > > > > Re VH-LST, the possibility of structural failure is real bad news. But, > > tails don't just come off on Commanders. If it did, the likely scenario is > > through the pilot inducing an over-stress through extreme use of the > > controls. > > > > > > Very Best Regards, > > > > > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:08 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 02/25/04 08:43:21 Pacific Standard Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: a news chopper showed the Falcon land and what astonished me was the apparent (considerable) movement of the 'T'-tail visible on the footage. That was a Gulfstream. Falcon tails do not wobble. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:30 AM PST US From: "Robert C. Bullock" Subject: Commander-List: RE: Commander-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 02/24/04 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert C. Bullock" Actually it seems I read somewhere that the Va speeds were not computed for the tail sections on certified aircraft (all or CAR 23 only, or what I do not recall), which is important when you are deflecting the controls fully, obviously. I also seem to remember that the popular current theory is due to that and the Airbus crash, you should not use rudder to correct for yaw excursions (and I think just in cruise, obv. You need it for Xwind landings and such). The logic being that a big gust/turbulence followed rapid full rudder input to counteract is bad juju at cruise speed. Did I imagine this recommendation? Did a quick google search but didn't find it. But I did find that Va is computed, not verified I guess for obvious reasons. ---- Good review: From an aerodynamic standpoint, Bob explained that Va is a speed that is poorly understood by many pilots. Most of have been taught to use Va as a turbulence penetration speed. But Va is not a manufacturer-recommended turbulence penetration speed, and in fact there is no requirement that a turbulence penetration speed be published for Part 23 aircraft. (The situation is different for Part 25 aircraft like bizjets.) Unless you plan to do snap rolls or other abrupt-control-deflection maneuvers, Va is a figure that has little relevance to everyday flying. Va is a purely theoretical figure that represents the maximum speed at which abrupt control deflection will not stress the aircraft beyond its designed load limit. But Va is not a speed determined from flight test, is not verified during FAA certification, and is never required to be demonstrated by the manufacturer. Bob pointed out that if you attempted to verify Va by intentionally stalling the aircraft at Va at the design load limit of the airframe, you'd have to enter the maneuver at an airspeed significantly higher than Va, then perform an abrupt pull-up or accelerated stall that would produce load-limit G-forces and reduce the airspeed to Va precisely at the point where the airplane stalled. Va as published in the POH is a computed figure based on maximum aircraft weight. At lower weights, Vs is lower and therefore Va is also lower. The aerodynamic effect of VGs on manuvering speed is substantially identical to the effect of flying at less than maximum weight. Time: 04:23:00 PM PST US From: "Bill Bow" Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" Bottom line, > tail sections are not stressed for reversals. Not stressed on those "Hugo" jets. The world flys on BOEING. bilbo ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:21 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" Hi Tom, et al, Al was answering a question from me as to what the height is on a Model 500 from the ground to the tip of the horizontal tail (we call then "tailplanes" over here). This is because I'm compiling 'Fact Files' on each Model built (and later, not built) in preparation for "The Book". As Al said, why anybody would want that figure beats me, but it is quoted in the Maintenance Manual for the Model 720 Alti-Cruiser. If a figure is quoted somewhere like that, I try and get it for all Models, quoted in the M/M or not. The Fact File tables cover: Dimensions Performance Weights & Balance Control Surface Movements Engines Propellers Engine/Prop Combinations Production (by Year) Current Fleet Status ADs. All good fun and stops me spending money n the Pub each night! Very Best Regards, Barry C (UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500 | --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" | | Al, I am curious as to what the questions were to prompt you to measure what | you did. | Tom F. | ----- Original Message ----- | From: | To: | Subject: Commander-List: 500 | | | > --> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com | > | > | > hi barry, i did not have the dimension that you needed, but i went to the | airport and measured it. i cannot guarantee that the aircraft was level as | far as the strut height was concerned, but the floor is level and i measured | both tips to make sure they were the same. the measurement from the floor | to the elevator tip is 98 inches. it was the same on both sides. i cannot | imagine who would want this information. | > | > the gross weight is 6000 pounds. the empty weight varies with the | installed equipment, but is normally about 4300 pounds. that leaves 1700 | pounds for gas, passengers and baggage. | > | > there is no landing weight, the aircraft is limited to 6000 pounds gross | for takeoff and landing. i don't have the email in front of me so i hope | this answers the questions. the total fuel is 156 on all of them at 6 | pounds per gallon or 936 pounds, leaving 764 for passengers and baggage. | there may be a modification to add fuel, but if you have four big people at | 170 pounds, you either add two kids, forget the other three adults or leave | some fuel behind. | > | > all twin engine piston aircraft are certified by having a test pilot shut | down one engine, have the airplane loaded to what the engineers think is | gross weight and then see if the airplane will climb on one engine at 50 | feet per minute at altitude. if it climbs more than that, they continue to | increase the weight until it just barely meets the standard. that becomes | the gross weight. as long as both engines are running, you have no | problems, just don't let the good engine quit and have to fly home on the | bad engine. | > | > if i have not expressed my appreciation for all your work i want to say | thank you now. have a good day and let me know if you need more | information. i decided to send this to the entire list as my comments | usually generate controversy, which adds at times to the knowledge base. | (other times it makes me mad as he**, but that is another story) I also | wonder if bill bow is flying again. what say bill? | > | > al hoffman | > | > | | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:47 AM PST US From: ProgSearch@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: MEI will travel to your location for initial and recurrent. --> Commander-List message posted by: ProgSearch@aol.com Hello listers, I have completed my instructors tickets and am available for initial and recurrent training in your commander. I have flown the 500 A, B, U, & S the 560F, the 680FP, the 680FL, and the 685. Several with Mr RPM and Merlyn conversions. I am willing to travel to your location provided you pick up the expenses. I am completing a training syllabus that you can provide your insurance company with to get the approval. Call me for a quote. You may reach me at my office: 859-689-9046 Home; 859-689-1765, Cell 859-992-6920 or emails; progsearch@aol.com or kevincoons@cavucompanies.net (preferred email address) Kevin Coons ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:50 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Thanks Barry, put me on the list. Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500 > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" > > Hi Tom, et al, > > Al was answering a question from me as to what the height is on a Model 500 from > the ground to the tip of the horizontal tail (we call then "tailplanes" over > here). > > This is because I'm compiling 'Fact Files' on each Model built (and later, not > built) in preparation for "The Book". > > As Al said, why anybody would want that figure beats me, but it is quoted in the > Maintenance Manual for the Model 720 Alti-Cruiser. If a figure is quoted > somewhere like that, I try and get it for all Models, quoted in the M/M or not. > > The Fact File tables cover: > Dimensions > Performance > Weights & Balance > Control Surface Movements > Engines > Propellers > Engine/Prop Combinations > Production (by Year) > Current Fleet Status > ADs. > > All good fun and stops me spending money n the Pub each night! > > Very Best Regards, > > Barry C (UK) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Fisher" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500 > > > what the as measured floor cannot 1700 gross hope at leave shut to becomes the say > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:54 PM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: VH-EXU --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON Nico, American Airlines A300-600, KJFK, rapid reversal of the rudder in a wake turbulence encounter. The jury is out as to whether the control inputs were pilot inputs, or yaw damper inputs, or a combination of both. The details go to thousands of pages. Unrelated to the above, every military pilot knows, but few civil pilots understand, the effect of "rolling G" on structural limits of an airframe, in short the G limits in a turn are not the G limits straight and level, which are the G limits in the AFM. Cheers, Bill Hamilton. At 03:14 25/02/2004, you wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" > >Didn't an airliner suffer a tail malfunction due to extreme control use >recently? At least that was what the board of inquiry suggested. Cannot >remember the details. >Nico > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Barry Collman" >To: >Subject: Commander-List: VH-EXU > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" > > > > > Hi Russell, > > > > Gil White has a possible lead for VH-EXU. The other two - nothing new. > > > > Evidently, E S Gooch has a listing in the White Pages as 3 Healy Street, >Port Denison, Western Australia. Port Denison is in the general area of >Three Springs which Edgar Sidney Gooch gave to the Department of Civil >Aviation for registration purposes over 30 years ago. > > > > The phone number is 08 9927-1799. > > > > Would it be worth giving him a call? > > > > Re VH-LST, the possibility of structural failure is real bad news. But, >tails don't just come off on Commanders. If it did, the likely scenario is >through the pilot inducing an over-stress through extreme use of the >controls. > > > > Very Best Regards, > > > > Barry > > > > > > COMMUNICATIONS CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note. The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies, W.J.R.Hamilton, Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is: will remain valid for about three months. All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about three months, the date will be notified. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500 From: alh1@juno.com --> Commander-List message posted by: alh1@juno.com hi tom, barry wanted to know the distance from the floor to the tip of the elevators. he also wanted to know the empty weight, the landing weight limit, if any and i think that is it. al hoffman