Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:31 PM - Gear down, check 3 green (Alan Kucheck)
2. 07:50 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (Bill Bow)
3. 08:00 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (John Vormbaum)
4. 08:13 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (CloudCraft@aol.com)
5. 08:15 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (John Vormbaum)
6. 08:28 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (Alan Kucheck)
7. 08:45 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (Jim Addington)
8. 09:45 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
9. 10:13 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (Bill Bow)
10. 10:31 PM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (CloudCraft@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for
traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I
drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down again.
Still nothing. [Did the red light come on during the momentary up? Shit -
can't remember. It *was* on before the first attempt to lower.]
Cycle the breaker. Nothing. No indication of hydraulic failure, the gear
looks down and they "felt" normal going down. I play with the lenses. I push
to test. Nothing. Hmmm.
Low pass? What will that do? I can see the mains. I recall my days as a
controller: "11D, gear appears down and in place. Say intentions." I figure
they could spot a nose gear problem, but the mains are not indicating down
and locked either and I have a better view than the tower does of those.
I elect to land without requesting equipment. I'm ready to shut everything
down quickly if necessary. I'll try to make this one nice and easy. Well,
wind was reported as 340 @ 11G22. My attempt to gently place the gear on the
runway failed. I arrived quite firmly and the gear held. If there were a
problem with the gear mechanism, rather than the indicator lights, that
landing wouuld have exposed it. Yeah, that's right, I did it that way on
purpose.
Should I [would you ] have done anything differently?
==========================================
As I was rethinking the episode later I was asking myself, "Could the lights
have been masked by direct sunlight?" I remember trying to shield them and
still seeing nothing. I decide to go to the plane after dark and look then.
Master on, two bright red vacuum failure lights, but no green ones. I cycle
the breaker [again]. I sit and ponder. Just then, without me touching
anything the left main light flickers on, faintly. Then the right. Then the
right goes out. Then the left. Then they both come on, faintly, doing that
distant star flicker thing. I adjust the lens on the nose gear light and
coax a dim light there as well. I leave the plane, knowing that I will
never see these during daylight.
Saturday afternoon, preflight. Master on. Three bright green lights. Jeez!
Return to SNA, no problems. On approach: you guessed it. No green lights.
;>(
Bad, cranky breaker? Other ideas?
Thanks
ak
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
That's exactly what I 'd have done.
I haven't touched my gear handle in a long time. It is obviously something
in common with them all not working. Isn't there a switch on the gear
handle itself that "arms" the green lights?
nice job Alan
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck"
<akucheck@hotmail.com>
>
> So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for
> traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I
> drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down
again.
> Still nothing. [Did the red light come on during the momentary up? Shit -
> can't remember. It *was* on before the first attempt to lower.]
>
> Cycle the breaker. Nothing. No indication of hydraulic failure, the gear
> looks down and they "felt" normal going down. I play with the lenses. I
push
> to test. Nothing. Hmmm.
>
> Low pass? What will that do? I can see the mains. I recall my days as a
> controller: "11D, gear appears down and in place. Say intentions." I
figure
> they could spot a nose gear problem, but the mains are not indicating down
> and locked either and I have a better view than the tower does of those.
>
> I elect to land without requesting equipment. I'm ready to shut everything
> down quickly if necessary. I'll try to make this one nice and easy. Well,
> wind was reported as 340 @ 11G22. My attempt to gently place the gear on
the
> runway failed. I arrived quite firmly and the gear held. If there were a
> problem with the gear mechanism, rather than the indicator lights, that
> landing wouuld have exposed it. Yeah, that's right, I did it that way on
> purpose.
>
> Should I [would you ] have done anything differently?
>
> ==========================================
>
> As I was rethinking the episode later I was asking myself, "Could the
lights
> have been masked by direct sunlight?" I remember trying to shield them and
> still seeing nothing. I decide to go to the plane after dark and look
then.
>
> Master on, two bright red vacuum failure lights, but no green ones. I
cycle
> the breaker [again]. I sit and ponder. Just then, without me touching
> anything the left main light flickers on, faintly. Then the right. Then
the
> right goes out. Then the left. Then they both come on, faintly, doing that
> distant star flicker thing. I adjust the lens on the nose gear light and
> coax a dim light there as well. I leave the plane, knowing that I will
> never see these during daylight.
>
> Saturday afternoon, preflight. Master on. Three bright green lights. Jeez!
> Return to SNA, no problems. On approach: you guessed it. No green lights.
> ;>(
>
> Bad, cranky breaker? Other ideas?
>
> Thanks
>
> ak
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Hey Alan,
You're not a virgin anymore! I've had that happen too, due to a complete
hydraulic pressure loss, and in my case, I also did just what you did.
Commander mains rarely fail to lock if the bungees and the nitrogen systems
are kept in good condition. Anything else is incidental.
I did learn one thing the hard way, and I'll remember this always: DON'T
cycle the gear again. I did that, and with zero hydraulic pressure, that
popped the nosewheel up above center again so that it would lock down
inertially. I set the airplane down very gently and rolled it out on only
the mains for 5,000 feet or so, then gently turned off the runway and set
the nose down as easily as I could. The nosegear collapsed, but I did very
little damage. It only cost $7k to fix (argh!). I could have saved that
money if I just remembered what I'd learned in my initial training. Of
course, your situation was different since you had pressure....
Also, I think in the future, I'd like to see my tax dollars at work. I'll
roll the trucks if that ever happens again, if for no reason other than that
those guys can probably use the practice ;-).
Kudos for completing the flight safely. I hope you find out that it's just
lightbulbs or a microswitch!
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
>
> That's exactly what I 'd have done.
>
> I haven't touched my gear handle in a long time. It is obviously
something
> in common with them all not working. Isn't there a switch on the gear
> handle itself that "arms" the green lights?
>
> nice job Alan
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck"
> <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> >
> > So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for
> > traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I
> > drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down
> again.
> > Still nothing. [Did the red light come on during the momentary up?
Shit -
> > can't remember. It *was* on before the first attempt to lower.]
> >
> > Cycle the breaker. Nothing. No indication of hydraulic failure, the gear
> > looks down and they "felt" normal going down. I play with the lenses. I
> push
> > to test. Nothing. Hmmm.
> >
> > Low pass? What will that do? I can see the mains. I recall my days as a
> > controller: "11D, gear appears down and in place. Say intentions." I
> figure
> > they could spot a nose gear problem, but the mains are not indicating
down
> > and locked either and I have a better view than the tower does of those.
> >
> > I elect to land without requesting equipment. I'm ready to shut
everything
> > down quickly if necessary. I'll try to make this one nice and easy.
Well,
> > wind was reported as 340 @ 11G22. My attempt to gently place the gear on
> the
> > runway failed. I arrived quite firmly and the gear held. If there were a
> > problem with the gear mechanism, rather than the indicator lights, that
> > landing wouuld have exposed it. Yeah, that's right, I did it that way on
> > purpose.
> >
> > Should I [would you ] have done anything differently?
> >
> > ==========================================
> >
> > As I was rethinking the episode later I was asking myself, "Could the
> lights
> > have been masked by direct sunlight?" I remember trying to shield them
and
> > still seeing nothing. I decide to go to the plane after dark and look
> then.
> >
> > Master on, two bright red vacuum failure lights, but no green ones. I
> cycle
> > the breaker [again]. I sit and ponder. Just then, without me touching
> > anything the left main light flickers on, faintly. Then the right. Then
> the
> > right goes out. Then the left. Then they both come on, faintly, doing
that
> > distant star flicker thing. I adjust the lens on the nose gear light and
> > coax a dim light there as well. I leave the plane, knowing that I will
> > never see these during daylight.
> >
> > Saturday afternoon, preflight. Master on. Three bright green lights.
Jeez!
> > Return to SNA, no problems. On approach: you guessed it. No green
lights.
> > ;>(
> >
> > Bad, cranky breaker? Other ideas?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > ak
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
> So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for
> >traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I
> >drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down again.>
> Still nothing.
Alan,
Nice work!
The problem is with the OAK Ry 27 R ILS. The only gear problem I've had in a
biz jet was on the ILS to that runway.
What model Commander do you operate? That will be a need-to-know for trouble
shooting. (Not that I can trouble shoot it ...)
The fine thing about a Commander is that you can see the mains. If they look
down and straight, they are.
If it's day time and your spinners are polished, you can see the nose gear
down -- or have the tower tell you, as you so well know.
Since you were able to cycle the gear up and down, any hydraulic problem is
not the case. With a hydraulic problem, getting the gear down is no problem
either, but that's another story.
We know it wasn't an "O" ring so must be a micro switch, right? Those are
the causes of all airplane trouble. ;-)
Asking for emergency equipment is the tricky call. If you do, you'll get
your 15 minutes of fame. If you don't and you do have a problem on landing,
you get 15 minutes of fame and tortured by the NTSB and FAA.
I always ask for assistance, get to meet the fire chief, answer a few
questions for their forms and get thanked for providing them with an exercise.
(And no, Bilbo, I know what you're thinking. This is not my SOP for all
landings. Yet.)
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Hey WAIT A MINUTE! I had a no-nosegear light on an approach to OAK 27R (in
someone else's 500B...turned out to be a bad switch)! It IS the runway!
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
>
> > So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for
> > >traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly.
I
> > >drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down
again.>
> > Still nothing.
>
> Alan,
> Nice work!
>
> The problem is with the OAK Ry 27 R ILS. The only gear problem I've had
in a
> biz jet was on the ILS to that runway.
>
> What model Commander do you operate? That will be a need-to-know for
trouble
> shooting. (Not that I can trouble shoot it ...)
>
> The fine thing about a Commander is that you can see the mains. If they
look
> down and straight, they are.
>
> If it's day time and your spinners are polished, you can see the nose gear
> down -- or have the tower tell you, as you so well know.
>
> Since you were able to cycle the gear up and down, any hydraulic problem
is
> not the case. With a hydraulic problem, getting the gear down is no
problem
> either, but that's another story.
>
> We know it wasn't an "O" ring so must be a micro switch, right? Those are
> the causes of all airplane trouble. ;-)
>
> Asking for emergency equipment is the tricky call. If you do, you'll get
> your 15 minutes of fame. If you don't and you do have a problem on
landing,
> you get 15 minutes of fame and tortured by the NTSB and FAA.
>
> I always ask for assistance, get to meet the fire chief, answer a few
> questions for their forms and get thanked for providing them with an
exercise.
>
> (And no, Bilbo, I know what you're thinking. This is not my SOP for all
> landings. Yet.)
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" <Alan.Kucheck@borland.com>
Given these early exit polls I'm happy to blame the runway. However, to
sustain the theory we would all have to believe that this bewitched
runway is capable of projecting its curse onto 19R at SNA on the return
trip as well. Maybe it is like an STD: I "got it" from OAK 27R and
"passed it on" to SNA 19R. Let's hope not. ;>)
WCG: 811D is a 1962 500A Colemill. I don't have the shop manual here,
but in talking with my mechanic [who does have it], it appears that the
only common wiring is at the breaker. Each light has an individual
ground. After I return from a business trip [commercial, back of the
bus] on Thursday, I'll take a look and report my findings.
ak
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum [mailto:john@vormbaum.com]
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
--> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum"
<john@vormbaum.com>
Hey WAIT A MINUTE! I had a no-nosegear light on an approach to OAK 27R
(in
someone else's 500B...turned out to be a bad switch)! It IS the runway!
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
>
> > So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high
for
> > >traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down
quickly.
I
> > >drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then
down
again.>
> > Still nothing.
>
> Alan,
> Nice work!
>
> The problem is with the OAK Ry 27 R ILS. The only gear problem I've
had
in a
> biz jet was on the ILS to that runway.
>
> What model Commander do you operate? That will be a need-to-know for
trouble
> shooting. (Not that I can trouble shoot it ...)
>
> The fine thing about a Commander is that you can see the mains. If
they
look
> down and straight, they are.
>
> If it's day time and your spinners are polished, you can see the nose
gear
> down -- or have the tower tell you, as you so well know.
>
> Since you were able to cycle the gear up and down, any hydraulic
problem
is
> not the case. With a hydraulic problem, getting the gear down is no
problem
> either, but that's another story.
>
> We know it wasn't an "O" ring so must be a micro switch, right? Those
are
> the causes of all airplane trouble. ;-)
>
> Asking for emergency equipment is the tricky call. If you do, you'll
get
> your 15 minutes of fame. If you don't and you do have a problem on
landing,
> you get 15 minutes of fame and tortured by the NTSB and FAA.
>
> I always ask for assistance, get to meet the fire chief, answer a few
> questions for their forms and get thanked for providing them with an
exercise.
>
> (And no, Bilbo, I know what you're thinking. This is not my SOP for
all
> landings. Yet.)
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 7
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| Subject: | Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@charter.net>
Glad you got it down with out any problems. This is just a thought but you
may have some corrosion on the terminals or a ground problem.
Jim Addington
N444BD
500A
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
CloudCraft@aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
> So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for
> >traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I
> >drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down
again.>
> Still nothing.
Alan,
Nice work!
The problem is with the OAK Ry 27 R ILS. The only gear problem I've had in
a
biz jet was on the ILS to that runway.
What model Commander do you operate? That will be a need-to-know for trouble
shooting. (Not that I can trouble shoot it ...)
The fine thing about a Commander is that you can see the mains. If they
look
down and straight, they are.
If it's day time and your spinners are polished, you can see the nose gear
down -- or have the tower tell you, as you so well know.
Since you were able to cycle the gear up and down, any hydraulic problem is
not the case. With a hydraulic problem, getting the gear down is no
problem
either, but that's another story.
We know it wasn't an "O" ring so must be a micro switch, right? Those are
the causes of all airplane trouble. ;-)
Asking for emergency equipment is the tricky call. If you do, you'll get
your 15 minutes of fame. If you don't and you do have a problem on
landing,
you get 15 minutes of fame and tortured by the NTSB and FAA.
I always ask for assistance, get to meet the fire chief, answer a few
questions for their forms and get thanked for providing them with an
exercise.
(And no, Bilbo, I know what you're thinking. This is not my SOP for all
landings. Yet.)
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 4/25/2004 6:31:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
akucheck@hotmail.com writes:
Low pass? What will that do?
You can usually confirm the gear down with the hydraulic gauge. If the gear
is visually down, check the gauge. If it is reading normal it is almost
cretin the gear is down and locked. If it is low or fluctuating, immediately pull
the aux hyd pump breaker (it should already have been off) to conserve what
hyd fluid is remaining in the system for brakes and steering. You did a good
job. jb
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Here we go!
It is my understanding that the "pneudraulics" system on the Aero Commander
uses hydraulics to retract the landing gear and pneumatics to extend the
main landing gear, with the coil spring "bungie" to extend the nose. Thus,
checking the hydraulic pressure will only tell you why it(the gear ) fellout
of the well. anyone ..........anyone......anyone......?
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 4/25/2004 6:31:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> akucheck@hotmail.com writes:
> Low pass? What will that do?
> You can usually confirm the gear down with the hydraulic gauge. If the
gear
> is visually down, check the gauge. If it is reading normal it is almost
> cretin the gear is down and locked. If it is low or fluctuating,
immediately pull
> the aux hyd pump breaker (it should already have been off) to conserve
what
> hyd fluid is remaining in the system for brakes and steering. You did a
good
> job. jb
>
>
> Here we go!
It is my understanding that the "pneudraulics" system on the Aero Commander
uses hydraulics to retract the landing gear and pneumatics to extend the
main landing gear, with the coil spring "bungee" to extend the nose. Thus,
checking the hydraulic pressure will only tell you why it(the gear ) fell
out of the well. anyone ..........anyone......anyone......?
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 4/25/2004 6:31:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> akucheck@hotmail.com writes:
> Low pass? What will that do?
> You can usually confirm the gear down with the hydraulic gauge. If the
gear
> is visually down, check the gauge. If it is reading normal it is almost
> cretin the gear is down and locked. If it is low or fluctuating,
immediately pull
> the aux hyd pump breaker (it should already have been off) to conserve
what
> hyd fluid is remaining in the system for brakes and steering. You did a
good
> job. jb
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Gear down, check 3 green |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 25-Apr-04 22:13:50 Pacific Daylight Time,
bowing74@earthlink.net writes:
> Thus,
> checking the hydraulic pressure will only tell you why it(the gear ) fellout
> of the well. anyone ..........anyone......anyone......?
>
This is very long winded -- and excerpted from the CLOUD CRAFT=AE column from
the third 1995 issue of the Flight Group News, but may be a good review for
some of the new members.
"The landing gear is retracted by hydraulic pressure. It is extended by
hydraulic pressure, pneumatic pressure and gravity, all working at the same=20time
to
do the same job. Let's talk about the pneumatic system first because it is
usually the most misunderstood.
There is a small nitrogen-filled bottle in the baggage compartment area, or
just aft of it in most models. It holds a charge of 275 to 350 psi (higher on
Turbine models) that is read on a gauge located in the left main landing gear
wheel well. This nitrogen charge powers the outboard main landing gear
hydraulic/pneumatic actuators on both main landing gear assemblies. These outboard
sets of actuators are "pneumatic down, hydraulic up." Thus the term
"pneudraulic."
These are working all the time, every time, even though it is commonly called
the "emergency" gear extension system. The fact is that in normal operation,
the 1000 psi of hydraulic pressure on the inboard actuators on each main
landing wheel have more power than the pneumatic (outboard), down-side actuators.
If, however, the hydraulic system was to lose pressure, this 275-350 psi of
nitrogen pressure is still there doing its job. Only this time, it is doing=20all
the work by itself. This is why it is necessary to slow the aircraft down to
help with pneumatic landing gear extension; the pneumatic actuator can't push
against as much of an air load as the 1000 psi hydraulic actuators.
The pilot of an Aero Commander (with the exception of "bath tub" nacelle
models) should understand that the main landing gear is held up by mechanical
uplocks that are hydraulically controlled. The landing gear will remain up until
the pressure is released from the uplocks by movement of the landing gear
control handle.
The nose gear is held up by hydraulic pressure only, acting against a spring
that always pushes the nose wheel toward the down position. If, during flight,
the nose wheel was to extend without you placing the landing gear handle in
the down position, you have had a hydraulic failure. (Note: Depending on model
/ serial number, your hydraulic pressure gauge may show zero or it may show
pressure remaining. In the Shrike and 690 Turbo Commanders, a check valve
isolates the gauge from the rest of the system and the gauge actually shows=20pressure
in the brake system. In this case, you'd know if you had any brakes left for
the landing)."
There's more, but this answers the question you tossed out.
Wing Commander Gordon
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