---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/26/04: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:09 AM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green () 2. 09:16 AM - landing gear lights (Scott Dickey) 3. 10:33 AM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (nico css) 4. 10:38 AM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (nico css) 5. 10:38 AM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (nico css) 6. 11:14 AM - Re: Gear down, check 3 green (nico css) 7. 10:01 PM - Re: landing gear lights (Alan Kucheck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:01 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green --> Commander-List message posted by: Hydraulic up and down, with Nitrogen assist down. The nitrogen is to help the mains extend in the event of you lose Hydraulic Pressure. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bow" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" > > Here we go! > > It is my understanding that the "pneudraulics" system on the Aero Commander > uses hydraulics to retract the landing gear and pneumatics to extend the > main landing gear, with the coil spring "bungie" to extend the nose. Thus, > checking the hydraulic pressure will only tell you why it(the gear ) fellout > of the well. anyone ..........anyone......anyone......? > > bilbo > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 4/25/2004 6:31:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > akucheck@hotmail.com writes: > > Low pass? What will that do? > > You can usually confirm the gear down with the hydraulic gauge. If the > gear > > is visually down, check the gauge. If it is reading normal it is almost > > cretin the gear is down and locked. If it is low or fluctuating, > immediately pull > > the aux hyd pump breaker (it should already have been off) to conserve > what > > hyd fluid is remaining in the system for brakes and steering. You did a > good > > job. jb > > > > > > Here we go! > > It is my understanding that the "pneudraulics" system on the Aero Commander > uses hydraulics to retract the landing gear and pneumatics to extend the > main landing gear, with the coil spring "bungee" to extend the nose. Thus, > checking the hydraulic pressure will only tell you why it(the gear ) fell > out of the well. anyone ..........anyone......anyone......? > > bilbo > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 4/25/2004 6:31:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > akucheck@hotmail.com writes: > > Low pass? What will that do? > > You can usually confirm the gear down with the hydraulic gauge. If the > gear > > is visually down, check the gauge. If it is reading normal it is almost > > cretin the gear is down and locked. If it is low or fluctuating, > immediately pull > > the aux hyd pump breaker (it should already have been off) to conserve > what > > hyd fluid is remaining in the system for brakes and steering. You did a > good > > job. jb > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:18 AM PST US From: "Scott Dickey" Subject: Commander-List: landing gear lights --> Commander-List message posted by: "Scott Dickey" The gear downlock circuit is pretty simple and since all 3 lights are failing, it should be pretty easy to fix. You can pretty much rule out a ground problem since each downlock grounds individually (grounded means the light comes on). It is unlikely the ground at each wheel is intermittent. The next possible culprit is the 28VDC supply which comes from the circuit breaker and goes to the #10 terminal on the junction box inside the heater compartment. You should have 28 VDC there all the time. At that point the 28 VDC splits to supply the mains and nose wheel. Again, since all are faulty it is probably the single supply from the breaker rather than each individual supply after the J box. If the lights aren't working on the ground, then you're in business. Just remove the heater compartment cover and check for voltage at terminal #10. It could be a loose wire or maybe even the circuit breaker as you suggested. Good Luck. Scott N222LE ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:59 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" That is exactly one of those moments where a pilot earns his keep in a few minutes. Nobody can tell you to do it differently. You eyeballed the main gear. Perhaps you saw the nose gear in the mirror off the engine nacelle. The gear cycle looked, felt, and sounded normal. You cycled the gear again, still nothing out of the ordinary. Your call. This is how I see it. If you elected to retract and land wheels up on the grass and it turned out to be nothing, you would have felt like a fool. (And fix the bent skin.) If the gear collapsed on your landing, you would have been no worse off than otherwise. The runway might have been closed for a while. Same outcome. I think you did right. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Kucheck" Subject: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" > > So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for > traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I > drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down again. > Still nothing. [Did the red light come on during the momentary up? Shit - > can't remember. It *was* on before the first attempt to lower.] > > Cycle the breaker. Nothing. No indication of hydraulic failure, the gear > looks down and they "felt" normal going down. I play with the lenses. I push > to test. Nothing. Hmmm. > > Low pass? What will that do? I can see the mains. I recall my days as a > controller: "11D, gear appears down and in place. Say intentions." I figure > they could spot a nose gear problem, but the mains are not indicating down > and locked either and I have a better view than the tower does of those. > > I elect to land without requesting equipment. I'm ready to shut everything > down quickly if necessary. I'll try to make this one nice and easy. Well, > wind was reported as 340 @ 11G22. My attempt to gently place the gear on the > runway failed. I arrived quite firmly and the gear held. If there were a > problem with the gear mechanism, rather than the indicator lights, that > landing wouuld have exposed it. Yeah, that's right, I did it that way on > purpose. > > Should I [would you ] have done anything differently? > > ========================================== > > As I was rethinking the episode later I was asking myself, "Could the lights > have been masked by direct sunlight?" I remember trying to shield them and > still seeing nothing. I decide to go to the plane after dark and look then. > > Master on, two bright red vacuum failure lights, but no green ones. I cycle > the breaker [again]. I sit and ponder. Just then, without me touching > anything the left main light flickers on, faintly. Then the right. Then the > right goes out. Then the left. Then they both come on, faintly, doing that > distant star flicker thing. I adjust the lens on the nose gear light and > coax a dim light there as well. I leave the plane, knowing that I will > never see these during daylight. > > Saturday afternoon, preflight. Master on. Three bright green lights. Jeez! > Return to SNA, no problems. On approach: you guessed it. No green lights. > ;>( > > Bad, cranky breaker? Other ideas? > > Thanks > > ak > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:52 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" That is exactly one of those moments where a pilot earns his keep in a few minutes. Nobody can tell you to do it differently. You eyeballed the main gear. Perhaps you saw the nose gear in the mirror off the engine nacelle. The gear cycle looked, felt, and sounded normal. You cycled the gear again, still nothing out of the ordinary. Your call. This is how I see it. If you elected to retract and land wheels up on the grass and it turned out to be nothing, you would have felt like a fool. (And fix the bent skin.) If the gear collapsed on your landing, you would have been no worse off than otherwise. The runway might have been closed for a while. Same outcome. I think you did right. I once lost complete hydraulic pressure in flight on my straight 500 and although I didn't have the luxury of cycling the gear once it dropped into locked-down, the landing was without incident. Except, of course, without steering I sat like a passenger in the front seat waiting for it to come to stop while it castored off the runway into the rough on the side. I did have the boys bring out the truck and stuff, though, because I believed they haven't had any action for a while, and if something had gone wrong, I might have said very unsavory things at a time when praying might have been more appropriate. :-) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Kucheck" Subject: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" > > So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for > traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I > drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down again. > Still nothing. [Did the red light come on during the momentary up? Shit - > can't remember. It *was* on before the first attempt to lower.] > > Cycle the breaker. Nothing. No indication of hydraulic failure, the gear > looks down and they "felt" normal going down. I play with the lenses. I push > to test. Nothing. Hmmm. > > Low pass? What will that do? I can see the mains. I recall my days as a > controller: "11D, gear appears down and in place. Say intentions." I figure > they could spot a nose gear problem, but the mains are not indicating down > and locked either and I have a better view than the tower does of those. > > I elect to land without requesting equipment. I'm ready to shut everything > down quickly if necessary. I'll try to make this one nice and easy. Well, > wind was reported as 340 @ 11G22. My attempt to gently place the gear on the > runway failed. I arrived quite firmly and the gear held. If there were a > problem with the gear mechanism, rather than the indicator lights, that > landing wouuld have exposed it. Yeah, that's right, I did it that way on > purpose. > > Should I [would you ] have done anything differently? > > ========================================== > > As I was rethinking the episode later I was asking myself, "Could the lights > have been masked by direct sunlight?" I remember trying to shield them and > still seeing nothing. I decide to go to the plane after dark and look then. > > Master on, two bright red vacuum failure lights, but no green ones. I cycle > the breaker [again]. I sit and ponder. Just then, without me touching > anything the left main light flickers on, faintly. Then the right. Then the > right goes out. Then the left. Then they both come on, faintly, doing that > distant star flicker thing. I adjust the lens on the nose gear light and > coax a dim light there as well. I leave the plane, knowing that I will > never see these during daylight. > > Saturday afternoon, preflight. Master on. Three bright green lights. Jeez! > Return to SNA, no problems. On approach: you guessed it. No green lights. > ;>( > > Bad, cranky breaker? Other ideas? > > Thanks > > ak > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:52 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" That is exactly one of those moments where a pilot earns his keep in a few minutes. Nobody can tell you to do it differently. You eyeballed the main gear. Perhaps you saw the nose gear in the mirror off the engine nacelle. The gear cycle looked, felt, and sounded normal. You cycled the gear again, still nothing out of the ordinary. Your call. This is how I see it. If you elected to retract and land wheels up on the grass and it turned out to be nothing, you would have felt like a fool. (And fix the bent skin.) If the gear collapsed on your landing, you would have been no worse off than otherwise. The runway might have been closed for a while. Same outcome. I think you did right. I once lost complete hydraulic pressure in flight on my straight 500 and although I didn't have the luxury of cycling the gear once it dropped into locked-down, the landing was without incident. Except, of course, without steering I sat like a passenger in the front seat waiting for it to come to stop while it castored off the runway into the rough on the side. I did have the boys bring out the truck and stuff, though, because I believed they haven't had any action for a while, and if something had gone wrong, I might have said very unsavory things at a time when praying might have been more appropriate. :-) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Kucheck" Subject: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" > > So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for > traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I > drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down again. > Still nothing. [Did the red light come on during the momentary up? Shit - > can't remember. It *was* on before the first attempt to lower.] > > Cycle the breaker. Nothing. No indication of hydraulic failure, the gear > looks down and they "felt" normal going down. I play with the lenses. I push > to test. Nothing. Hmmm. > > Low pass? What will that do? I can see the mains. I recall my days as a > controller: "11D, gear appears down and in place. Say intentions." I figure > they could spot a nose gear problem, but the mains are not indicating down > and locked either and I have a better view than the tower does of those. > > I elect to land without requesting equipment. I'm ready to shut everything > down quickly if necessary. I'll try to make this one nice and easy. Well, > wind was reported as 340 @ 11G22. My attempt to gently place the gear on the > runway failed. I arrived quite firmly and the gear held. If there were a > problem with the gear mechanism, rather than the indicator lights, that > landing wouuld have exposed it. Yeah, that's right, I did it that way on > purpose. > > Should I [would you ] have done anything differently? > > ========================================== > > As I was rethinking the episode later I was asking myself, "Could the lights > have been masked by direct sunlight?" I remember trying to shield them and > still seeing nothing. I decide to go to the plane after dark and look then. > > Master on, two bright red vacuum failure lights, but no green ones. I cycle > the breaker [again]. I sit and ponder. Just then, without me touching > anything the left main light flickers on, faintly. Then the right. Then the > right goes out. Then the left. Then they both come on, faintly, doing that > distant star flicker thing. I adjust the lens on the nose gear light and > coax a dim light there as well. I leave the plane, knowing that I will > never see these during daylight. > > Saturday afternoon, preflight. Master on. Three bright green lights. Jeez! > Return to SNA, no problems. On approach: you guessed it. No green lights. > ;>( > > Bad, cranky breaker? Other ideas? > > Thanks > > ak > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:27 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Sorry, folks, three of these sneaked out. It was on my side that it happened. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" > > That is exactly one of those moments where a pilot earns his keep in a few > minutes. Nobody can tell you to do it differently. You eyeballed the main > gear. Perhaps you saw the nose gear in the mirror off the engine nacelle. > The gear cycle looked, felt, and sounded normal. You cycled the gear again, > still nothing out of the ordinary. Your call. > > This is how I see it. If you elected to retract and land wheels up on the > grass and it turned out to be nothing, you would have felt like a fool. (And > fix the bent skin.) If the gear collapsed on your landing, you would have > been no worse off than otherwise. The runway might have been closed for a > while. Same outcome. I think you did right. > > I once lost complete hydraulic pressure in flight on my straight 500 and > although I didn't have the luxury of cycling the gear once it dropped into > locked-down, the landing was without incident. Except, of course, without > steering I sat like a passenger in the front seat waiting for it to come to > stop while it castored off the runway into the rough on the side. I did have > the boys bring out the truck and stuff, though, because I believed they > haven't had any action for a while, and if something had gone wrong, I might > have said very unsavory things at a time when praying might have been more > appropriate. :-) > > Nico > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Kucheck" > To: > Subject: Commander-List: Gear down, check 3 green > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" > > > > > So, Thursday I'm on approach to 27R into OAK. ATC had kept me high for > > traffic, so now I'm gonna drop the gear and flaps to get down quickly. I > > drop the gear and get no lights. I cycle the gear back up, then down > again. > > Still nothing. [Did the red light come on during the momentary up? Shit - > > can't remember. It *was* on before the first attempt to lower.] > > > > Cycle the breaker. Nothing. No indication of hydraulic failure, the gear > > looks down and they "felt" normal going down. I play with the lenses. I > push > > to test. Nothing. Hmmm. > > > > Low pass? What will that do? I can see the mains. I recall my days as a > > controller: "11D, gear appears down and in place. Say intentions." I > figure > > they could spot a nose gear problem, but the mains are not indicating down > > and locked either and I have a better view than the tower does of those. > > > > I elect to land without requesting equipment. I'm ready to shut everything > > down quickly if necessary. I'll try to make this one nice and easy. Well, > > wind was reported as 340 @ 11G22. My attempt to gently place the gear on > the > > runway failed. I arrived quite firmly and the gear held. If there were a > > problem with the gear mechanism, rather than the indicator lights, that > > landing wouuld have exposed it. Yeah, that's right, I did it that way on > > purpose. > > > > Should I [would you ] have done anything differently? > > > > ========================================== > > > > As I was rethinking the episode later I was asking myself, "Could the > lights > > have been masked by direct sunlight?" I remember trying to shield them and > > still seeing nothing. I decide to go to the plane after dark and look > then. > > > > Master on, two bright red vacuum failure lights, but no green ones. I > cycle > > the breaker [again]. I sit and ponder. Just then, without me touching > > anything the left main light flickers on, faintly. Then the right. Then > the > > right goes out. Then the left. Then they both come on, faintly, doing that > > distant star flicker thing. I adjust the lens on the nose gear light and > > coax a dim light there as well. I leave the plane, knowing that I will > > never see these during daylight. > > > > Saturday afternoon, preflight. Master on. Three bright green lights. Jeez! > > Return to SNA, no problems. On approach: you guessed it. No green lights. > > ;>( > > > > Bad, cranky breaker? Other ideas? > > > > Thanks > > > > ak > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:27 PM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: landing gear lights From: "Alan Kucheck" --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" Scott: Thanks much; sounds like a plan. I'll let you know once I'm back in town and have a chance to check. ak -----Original Message----- From: Scott Dickey [mailto:jdickey@radictech.com] Subject: Commander-List: landing gear lights --> Commander-List message posted by: "Scott Dickey" The gear downlock circuit is pretty simple and since all 3 lights are failing, it should be pretty easy to fix. You can pretty much rule out a ground problem since each downlock grounds individually (grounded means the light comes on). It is unlikely the ground at each wheel is intermittent. The next possible culprit is the 28VDC supply which comes from the circuit breaker and goes to the #10 terminal on the junction box inside the heater compartment. You should have 28 VDC there all the time. At that point the 28 VDC splits to supply the mains and nose wheel. Again, since all are faulty it is probably the single supply from the breaker rather than each individual supply after the J box. If the lights aren't working on the ground, then you're in business. Just remove the heater compartment cover and check for voltage at terminal #10. It could be a loose wire or maybe even the circuit breaker as you suggested. Good Luck. Scott N222LE == == == ==