Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:15 AM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (Moe)
2. 07:41 AM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (Jimmy Rodriguez)
3. 07:52 AM - Re: baggage compartment (Scott Dickey)
4. 07:59 AM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (Jim Addington)
5. 08:03 AM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (Jody and Susan Pillatzki)
6. 11:39 AM - Quotes page? (Deneal Schilmeister (iMac))
7. 12:44 PM - Re: Quotes page? (Barry Collman)
8. 01:58 PM - Re: Quotes page? (nico css)
9. 02:01 PM - NUTHER NICE TRIP (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
10. 02:31 PM - Re: Quotes page? (Bill Bow)
11. 02:34 PM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (Bill Bow)
12. 02:43 PM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (Tom Fisher)
13. 02:49 PM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
14. 02:55 PM - Re: FUEL BLADDERS (Chris Schuermann)
15. 07:12 PM - New Commander Pilot with Questions (Ray Mansfield)
16. 08:17 PM - Re: New Commander Pilot with Questions (CloudCraft@aol.com)
17. 08:53 PM - Re: Quotes page? (Alan Kucheck)
18. 09:22 PM - Re: New Commander Pilot with Questions (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
19. 11:26 PM - Outboard Tank Etiquette (CloudCraft@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: FUEL BLADDERS |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Dear Commander Drivers,
Thanks for the good advice on the center bladder. After replacing the other
eight bladders, which were of varying age, I have decided not to replace the
center bladder at this time as it has no apparent leaks and was replaced new
(according to the log books and receipts that came from the previous owner)
in 1993.
The requested information about where leaks would appear if the center
bladder started a leak was for future reference.
As a point of reference, about how long should a new bladder last?
Best regards.
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10-May-04 10:11:12 Pacific Daylight Time,
> moe@rosspistons.com writes:
>
> > Although there are no visible signs of a leak it seems that there is a
> > faint gasoline smell in the baggage compartment when I first open the
door.
> >
>
> Moe,
>
> The center tank, as you know, sits above the baggage compartment ceiling.
> Depending on your baggage area interior and trim, the fuel sump drain
assembly
> may be "boxed" as a small protrusion below the ceiling of the baggage
area.
>
> The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I swear you
> could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of
aircraft and
> he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of Avgas and
5606.
>
> A wet baggage area is probably going to be your first tip-off. Wing root
> leaks have always been from wing tanks, in my experience, but I admit to
only one
> center tank leak vs. many wing tank leaks.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
Message 2
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jimmy Rodriguez" <jimmyr@popsecs.com>
Moe,
We recently replaced the cells on the right wing. They were 1978 vintage.
The left wing (same vintage) is still holding up.
Jimmy
N107VC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Moe
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Dear Commander Drivers,
Thanks for the good advice on the center bladder. After replacing the other
eight bladders, which were of varying age, I have decided not to replace the
center bladder at this time as it has no apparent leaks and was replaced new
(according to the log books and receipts that came from the previous owner)
in 1993.
The requested information about where leaks would appear if the center
bladder started a leak was for future reference.
As a point of reference, about how long should a new bladder last?
Best regards.
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10-May-04 10:11:12 Pacific Daylight Time,
> moe@rosspistons.com writes:
>
> > Although there are no visible signs of a leak it seems that there is a
> > faint gasoline smell in the baggage compartment when I first open the
door.
> >
>
> Moe,
>
> The center tank, as you know, sits above the baggage compartment ceiling.
> Depending on your baggage area interior and trim, the fuel sump drain
assembly
> may be "boxed" as a small protrusion below the ceiling of the baggage
area.
>
> The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I swear you
> could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of
aircraft and
> he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of Avgas and
5606.
>
> A wet baggage area is probably going to be your first tip-off. Wing root
> leaks have always been from wing tanks, in my experience, but I admit to
only one
> center tank leak vs. many wing tank leaks.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: baggage compartment |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Scott Dickey" <jdickey@radictech.com>
My 500B has a faint smell of gasoline, especially in the baggage compartment
also. Even though I've had the sump apart and no apparent leakage, it is
still there. However, I did notice the smell increased slightly when one of
my wing tanks started leaking. That and the big blue stain on the fuselage
under the wing tipped me off.
Scott
N222LE
Message 4
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@charter.net>
I took my center tank out last year and had it checked and rejuvenated. It
is I believe 44 years old. The main thing you want to do is keep the tanks
full so they do not dry out.
Jim A
N444BD
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FUEL BLADDERS |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" <jpillatzki@702com.net>
Just replaced my bladders in 411VV. 1951 , 1952 were the dates of
manufacture stamped on the bladders. Only one of five had been redone and
that one was rebuilt in the 70's.
Jody
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Rodriguez" <jimmyr@popsecs.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jimmy Rodriguez"
<jimmyr@popsecs.com>
>
> Moe,
>
> We recently replaced the cells on the right wing. They were 1978 vintage.
> The left wing (same vintage) is still holding up.
>
> Jimmy
> N107VC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Moe
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
>
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> Dear Commander Drivers,
>
> Thanks for the good advice on the center bladder. After replacing the
other
> eight bladders, which were of varying age, I have decided not to replace
the
> center bladder at this time as it has no apparent leaks and was replaced
new
> (according to the log books and receipts that came from the previous
owner)
> in 1993.
>
> The requested information about where leaks would appear if the center
> bladder started a leak was for future reference.
>
> As a point of reference, about how long should a new bladder last?
>
> Best regards.
>
> Moe
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 10-May-04 10:11:12 Pacific Daylight Time,
> > moe@rosspistons.com writes:
> >
> > > Although there are no visible signs of a leak it seems that there is a
> > > faint gasoline smell in the baggage compartment when I first open the
> door.
> > >
> >
> > Moe,
> >
> > The center tank, as you know, sits above the baggage compartment
ceiling.
> > Depending on your baggage area interior and trim, the fuel sump drain
> assembly
> > may be "boxed" as a small protrusion below the ceiling of the baggage
> area.
> >
> > The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I swear you
> > could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of
> aircraft and
> > he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of Avgas
and
> 5606.
> >
> > A wet baggage area is probably going to be your first tip-off. Wing
root
> > leaks have always been from wing tanks, in my experience, but I admit to
> only one
> > center tank leak vs. many wing tank leaks.
> >
> > Wing Commander Gordon
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
On 5/10/04 17:57, "CloudCraft@aol.com" <CloudCraft@aol.com> wrote:
> The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I swear you
> could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of aircraft
> and
> he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of Avgas and
> 5606.
If there were a "quotes page" for the Commander list, the above statement
should be on it!
--
Deneal Schilmeister ATP Learjet
St. Louis, Missouri USA
http://homepage.mac.com/deneals
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Quotes page? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
All of Wing Commander Gordon's postings should be on a "quotes page"!!
BC (UK)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Quotes page?
| --> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)"
<deneals@sbcglobal.net>
|
| On 5/10/04 17:57, "CloudCraft@aol.com" <CloudCraft@aol.com> wrote:
|
| > The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I swear you
| > could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of aircraft
| > and
| > he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of Avgas and
| > 5606.
|
| If there were a "quotes page" for the Commander list, the above statement
| should be on it!
|
|
| --
| Deneal Schilmeister ATP Learjet
| St. Louis, Missouri USA
|
| http://homepage.mac.com/deneals
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Quotes page? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
I couldn't resist, now that you guys are talking about the perceptiveness of
a Commander pilot.
When the first VW bug came out, there were many quotables for that (what we
called an excuse for an automobile) car. This one was particularly popular:
This guy was a car fanatic and he could tell you blindfolded everything abou
a car just by hearing it being started. Playing a trick on him, his buddies
took him to a toilet, the kind with the overhead cistern and chain, and
flushed it. He thought for a while and said it was a '57 VW Bug with a bad
misfire.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Quotes page?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)"
<deneals@sbcglobal.net>
>
> On 5/10/04 17:57, "CloudCraft@aol.com" <CloudCraft@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I swear you
> > could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of
aircraft
> > and
> > he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of Avgas
and
> > 5606.
>
> If there were a "quotes page" for the Commander list, the above statement
> should be on it!
>
>
> --
> Deneal Schilmeister ATP Learjet
> St. Louis, Missouri USA
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/deneals
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | NUTHER NICE TRIP |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
HI KIDS.
I just got back from my Mothersday trip in triple 2. It was a great
ride. Went over at 15.5 (29 X 2550) and 205kts, returned at 9.5 (31.5 X 2550)
171kts (must have had a tailwind both ways??) that is 188kts two way
average!! Pretty good for an airplane almost as old as me.
The weather was interesting, but the outcome was never in doubt. We were
on top most of the way both directions. The new engine is spectacular.
Nether engine used any oil on the trip and the new engine didn't even leak any,
Yippee!! jb
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Quotes page? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
> When the first VW bug came out, there were many quotables for that (what
we
> called an excuse for an automobile) car.
My favorite was in Mad Magazine. It had a picture of a Bug floating in
water and the caption read.
"Had Ted Kennedy had one of these, he would be president today"
From the right
bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: Quotes page?
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)"
> <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > On 5/10/04 17:57, "CloudCraft@aol.com" <CloudCraft@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I swear
you
> > > could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of
> aircraft
> > > and
> > > he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of Avgas
> and
> > > 5606.
> >
> > If there were a "quotes page" for the Commander list, the above
statement
> > should be on it!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Deneal Schilmeister ATP Learjet
> > St. Louis, Missouri USA
> >
> > http://homepage.mac.com/deneals
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: FUEL BLADDERS |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
I have one question about the "keep them full" philosophy. I can understand
the inside of the bladder being effected by the fuel, but how does the
outside of the bladder know not to crack?
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington"
<jtaddington@charter.net>
>
> I took my center tank out last year and had it checked and rejuvenated. It
> is I believe 44 years old. The main thing you want to do is keep the tanks
> full so they do not dry out.
>
> Jim A
> N444BD
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FUEL BLADDERS |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Great question, must be the baby powder.
Also where can you get hold of a inexpensive high volume fuel pump and six
empty drums so that I can unload
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
>
> I have one question about the "keep them full" philosophy. I can
understand
> the inside of the bladder being effected by the fuel, but how does the
> outside of the bladder know not to crack?
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@charter.net>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: FUEL BLADDERS
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington"
> <jtaddington@charter.net>
> >
> > I took my center tank out last year and had it checked and rejuvenated.
It
> > is I believe 44 years old. The main thing you want to do is keep the
tanks
> > full so they do not dry out.
> >
> > Jim A
> > N444BD
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: FUEL BLADDERS |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 5/11/2004 2:34:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bowing74@earthlink.net writes:
I have one question about the "keep them full" philosophy. I can understand
the inside of the bladder being effected by the fuel, but how does the
outside of the bladder know not to crack?
The outside of the cell is coated with a lacquer like material that protects
it from Ozone and the elements (remember the article in the last FGN about
fuel cells??) The inside cannot be coated, so, we must keep them wet. jb
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: FUEL BLADDERS |
--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann <cschuerm@cox.net>
Bill Bow wrote:
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
>
> I have one question about the "keep them full" philosophy. I can understand
> the inside of the bladder being effected by the fuel, but how does the
> outside of the bladder know not to crack?
bilbo,
My understanding of the chemistry is that it's the same thing that
happens with most rubbers and plastics - hydrocarbons tend to react with
the plasticizers which are used to keep the rubber compounds flexible
and sealed. As long as the tanks stay "wet", the plasticizers stay
rubbery, but if allowed to dry out after this reaction has taken place,
they harden, shrink, and begin leaching from the rubber and cloth.
chris
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | New Commander Pilot with Questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Ray Mansfield" <hcourier@cox.net>
I've just recently started flying an Aero Commander 680 FLP for a company in
Ft. Walton Beach, FL. I suspect many of the people on your web site have years
of experience with this machine. Sooo...I have a few questions.
1. When the plane is in the hangar, any fuel in the right aux tank will
drain into the center tank in a short time. This occurs even if the
fuel selector is set to "OFF". It even occurs in flight in that the
right aux tank is used up faster than the left with the engines at
approximately the same gph fuel burn. Any thoughts on why this
is happening.
2. The pressurization system only gets about 2,000' differential at
10,000 ft altitude. The cabin has been checked for leaks and none
of any consequence were found. The door seal is new and the
seal pump seems to be working. If I just climb, say, to 15,000'
will just the fact that the turbos will be putting out more pressure
cause the differential altitude to increase beyond more than
2,000'. Right now there's no real benefit to having the
pressurization as it doesn't work good enough. This airplane has
the Mr. RPM engine conversion to the IO-720 Lycoming.
Thanks,
Ray Mansfield
hcourier@cox.net
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: New Commander Pilot with Questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 11-May-04 19:13:08 Pacific Daylight Time, hcourier@cox.net
writes:
> 2. The pressurization system only gets about 2,000' differential at
> 10,000 ft altitude. The cabin has been checked for leaks and none
> of any consequence were found.
Hello Ray,
What is your tail number and serial number? Sir Barry Collman, Aero
Commander Historian, needs to keep the chain of ownership updated.
As to your pressurization troubles, if you've checked the door seal,
emergency exit seal, window seals, control column seal and rudder peddal seals,
you
need to check the ducts and clamps coming off the pressurization manifolds.
Don't overlook any of the ducting along the way from turbos to cabin.
Also, check to make sure that the inspection / access plates under the carpet
in the cabin are sealed. The next most troublesome leak area would be the
wing roots, which will require dropping the headliner.
You need to run fairly high RPMs on the Mr. RPM conversions because you're
sharing the turbo output with the engines. More mass flow = more air for the
engine and cabin.
If you've checked for leaks -- and I mean really checked for leaks as
described above and you're still not keeping a cabin, it may be due to the cabin
pressure controller, which isn't young by any standard.
The fuel "transfer" is due to a leaking fuel shut-off valve most likely.
There are several of these electric gate valves in the airplane and are used for
hydraulic, fuel and oil (on the original 680FLP) shut offs. R & R the
corresponding valve.
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 17
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|
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck" <Alan.Kucheck@borland.com>
Bilbo:
It was actually the National Lampoon, 1973. I remember standing in City
Lights Books in San Francisco [quiet like a library], flipping through
that issue and just bursting out with laughter. I pretty much had to
leave after that. Wish I bought the mag.
http://www.marksverylarge.com/booksetc/encyclopedia.html
ak
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bow [mailto:bowing74@earthlink.net]
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Quotes page?
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow"
<bowing74@earthlink.net>
> When the first VW bug came out, there were many quotables for that
(what
we
> called an excuse for an automobile) car.
My favorite was in Mad Magazine. It had a picture of a Bug floating in
water and the caption read.
"Had Ted Kennedy had one of these, he would be president today"
From the right
bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: Quotes page?
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)"
> <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > On 5/10/04 17:57, "CloudCraft@aol.com" <CloudCraft@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The faint smell of gas is part of the charm of a Commander. I
swear
you
> > > could blind fold any Commander pilot and place him in a variety of
> aircraft
> > > and
> > > he'll know when he's in a Commander. It's the combined scent of
Avgas
> and
> > > 5606.
> >
> > If there were a "quotes page" for the Commander list, the above
statement
> > should be on it!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Deneal Schilmeister ATP Learjet
> > St. Louis, Missouri USA
> >
> > http://homepage.mac.com/deneals
> >
> >
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: New Commander Pilot with Questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 5/11/2004 7:13:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
hcourier@cox.net writes:
1. When the plane is in the hangar, any fuel in the right aux tank will
drain into the center tank in a short time. This occurs even if the
fuel selector is set to "OFF". It even occurs in flight in that the
right aux tank is used up faster than the left with the engines at
approximately the same gph fuel burn. Any thoughts on why this
is happening.
The fuel valve is leaking internally. I allows fuel to transfer. They need
new seals. jb
Message 19
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| Subject: | Outboard Tank Etiquette |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
\
> 1. When the plane is in the hangar, any fuel in the right aux tank will
> drain into the center tank in a short time. This occurs even if the
> fuel selector is set to "OFF". It even occurs in flight in that the
> right aux tank is used up faster than the left with the engines at
> approximately the same gph fuel burn. Any thoughts on why this
> is happening.
>
Just a thought on this topic for all Commander operators with more than 156
gallon fuel systems. That would be Commanders with geared Lycomings and the
MR. RPM converted airframes. OK... And the few Gary Gadberry 223 gallon 500
A/B/U/S series.
When using the outboard tanks, keep in mind that more fuel than is required
is sent to the fuel metering system (either pressure carburetor or Simmonds
fuel injection) and that by-passed fuel returns to the center tank.
If one were to switch to outboard tanks too soon (or as in the case with our
new friend with the leaking fuel shut-off valve), there is no room in the
center tank for this return fuel to go and it dumps overboard.
So when is an OK time to switch to outboard tanks? As soon as you see the
main or center fuel system come off the full peg and begin to indicate anything
less than full, you have room for by-pass fuel. That would be in the 135
gallon indicating range.
There are two schools of thought on using the outboard tanks. Either
one-at-a-time, or, switching to double outboard but with 15 minutes of staggered
time so if you need to run the tanks dry, you don't have two closely occurring
adrenaline rushes to recover from.
The devotees to single outboard tank feeding run that way because in the
event of a total electrical failure, the tank selector valves fail in their
present position and that scenario would leave you with only outboard fuel that
is
NOT useable in all flight attitudes and not all that much fuel to get over the
mountains or ocean with.
Just something to think about, along with meteor strikes and whether you
forgot to run the dishwasher before you left on this trip.
Wing Commander Gordon
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