---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/24/04: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:29 AM - Re: Paint work (Chris Schuermann) 2. 06:12 AM - 1954 520 Aero Commander at Ebay (aerocommander) 3. 06:18 AM - Re: flyin (Russell Legg) 4. 07:13 AM - Re: Paint work (MASON Chevaillier) 5. 08:09 AM - Re: flyin (nico css 2) 6. 08:13 AM - Re: flyin (Chris Schuermann) 7. 09:06 AM - Re: flyin (MRP) 8. 09:30 AM - Re: flyin (Chris Schuermann) 9. 10:18 AM - Re: flyin (nico css) 10. 10:41 AM - Re: flyin (Chris Schuermann) 11. 03:52 PM - Re: flyin (RnJThompson@aol.com) 12. 04:36 PM - Re: flyin (W J R HAMILTON) 13. 06:20 PM - Re: flyin (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 14. 06:30 PM - Re: flyin (YOURTCFG@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:36 AM PST US From: Chris Schuermann Subject: Re: Commander-List: Paint work --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann Martini Luc J.R. wrote: > While your at it, you might tell me about how you neutralized the Paint > Stripper caustic compounds You are quite correct that the pre-paint prep work is VERY important. We used traditional chemical stripper for the majority of the airframe. (with wooden scrapers and scotchbrite pads) The post strip cleanup was very thourough. Every part was carefully washed with water and a neutralizer, then washed again with a steam cleaner with special attention to all the edges, gaps, and rivets. Every seam was "scrubbed" with nylon bristle toothbrushes. After that, the airframe was scrubbed with scotchbrite pads to give a good surface for the paint to adhere to. A final cleaning with MEK was done next. After that was completed, the airframe was treated with alodine, then re-washed prior to the epoxy zinc chromate primer. Now that the paint has fully cured, I'll be going back and "fogging" the interior with ACF50 which will kill any possibility of corrosion from any chemicals which may still have residual traces around. ACF50 is the most amazing stuff - it will even penetrate around rivets and the tightest seams. I have heard of horror stories resulting from using > wirebrushes Correct - use of any metalic brush will embed tiny pieces of the brush material into the aluminum and absolutely WILL result in damaging corrosion. Never ever use a metal brush of any type! A nylon bristle brush is the best choice, but must be used with care as chemical cleaners such as MEK will disolve the bristles and leave goo on the airplane. The whole process isn't perfect, but with sufficient care, the amount of residual stripper can minimized. You'll note that we had the airplane substantially disassembled during the process - this was to assure that we could maximize the cleaning process. Short of drilling apart the skins and prepping each part at the component level, I think that's the best that can be done. As an alternative, there are some shops which are using plastic media blasting to strip old paint. In my opinion, that is a good technology, but without great care can damage thin alumiinum skins. The Piper has a lot of pretty thin sheet metal since it's mostly a non-stressed skin design, so I wasn't comfortable using that method. hope this helped Chris ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:07 AM PST US From: aerocommander Subject: Commander-List: 1954 520 Aero Commander at Ebay --> Commander-List message posted by: aerocommander Hello group, May be You hav not yet recognized this fine gal at Ebay. She looks like to be worth to be kept airworthy. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26428&item=2482527873&rd=1 best regards from germany Volkmar Volkmar Salm Phone +49 7802 980 500 Fax +49 7802 980 954 salm@aerocommander.de ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin From: Russell Legg --> Commander-List message posted by: Russell Legg G'day Chris, We sure missed you last year at the Commander Aero show. It is highly likely that your "Down-under" pals from Oz will be at Kansas City Downtown this year; talking a lot about flying Commanders the "right way up"! Cheers from Oz Russell (still looking for a 560E or maybe a Straight 500) On 24/6/04 10:15 AM, "Chris Schuermann" wrote: > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > Anyone have any details on what the seminars are going to be for this > years fly-in and who will be speaking? > > Any of my old friends going to be there? > > chris > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:33 AM PST US From: "MASON Chevaillier" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Paint work --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON Chevaillier" there is also a process used by texas aerocolor in brady, tx that uses hydrogenperoxide to strip plane w/o residue to corode. mason >From: Chris Schuermann >Reply-To: commander-list@matronics.com >To: commander-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Commander-List: Paint work >Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:37:43 -0500 > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > >Martini Luc J.R. wrote: > > While your at it, you might tell me about how you neutralized the Paint > > Stripper caustic compounds > >You are quite correct that the pre-paint prep work is VERY important. >We used traditional chemical stripper for the majority of the airframe. > (with wooden scrapers and scotchbrite pads) The post strip cleanup was >very thourough. Every part was carefully washed with water and a >neutralizer, then washed again with a steam cleaner with special >attention to all the edges, gaps, and rivets. Every seam was "scrubbed" >with nylon bristle toothbrushes. After that, the airframe was scrubbed >with scotchbrite pads to give a good surface for the paint to adhere to. > A final cleaning with MEK was done next. >After that was completed, the airframe was treated with alodine, then >re-washed prior to the epoxy zinc chromate primer. Now that the paint >has fully cured, I'll be going back and "fogging" the interior with >ACF50 which will kill any possibility of corrosion from any chemicals >which may still have residual traces around. ACF50 is the most amazing >stuff - it will even penetrate around rivets and the tightest seams. > > I have heard of horror stories resulting from using > > wirebrushes > >Correct - use of any metalic brush will embed tiny pieces of the brush >material into the aluminum and absolutely WILL result in damaging >corrosion. Never ever use a metal brush of any type! A nylon bristle >brush is the best choice, but must be used with care as chemical >cleaners such as MEK will disolve the bristles and leave goo on the >airplane. > >The whole process isn't perfect, but with sufficient care, the amount of >residual stripper can minimized. You'll note that we had the airplane >substantially disassembled during the process - this was to assure that >we could maximize the cleaning process. Short of drilling apart the >skins and prepping each part at the component level, I think that's the >best that can be done. As an alternative, there are some shops which >are using plastic media blasting to strip old paint. In my opinion, >that is a good technology, but without great care can damage thin >alumiinum skins. The Piper has a lot of pretty thin sheet metal since >it's mostly a non-stressed skin design, so I wasn't comfortable using >that method. > >hope this helped >Chris > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:00 AM PST US From: "nico css 2" Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css 2" What a nice project, Chris. It didn't help the other folks that it was located next to a grave yard either, huh? Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > > MRP wrote: > > Hey Chris, > > Have you ever found anything to replace your Bellanca? > > Hey Mark! > Good to hear from you. I didn't know you were still around and on the > list. I made the S.C. flyin, but missed last year. Just a bit too much > trauma and too few $$$ available. > Yes, I did acquire a new project/airplane - take a look at: > http://members.cox.net/cschuerm/ > and tell me what you think. > > cheers > chris > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:43 AM PST US From: Chris Schuermann Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann nico css 2 wrote: > What a nice project, Chris. It didn't help the other folks that it was > located next to a grave yard either, huh? Thanks Nico. This bird has really turned out to be an enjoyable ownership experience. She's just treating me good, being very reliable, and also economical at the same time. You noticed the graves eh? :-) Kind of a strange location wasn't it? chris do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:45 AM PST US From: MRP Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: MRP Chris, All I can say is WOW!, but that doesn't quite cut it. AWESOME job! The Fly-in forms are on my desk, and will go out today. Jim, what's the count so far? Mark ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:22 AM PST US From: Chris Schuermann Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann MRP wrote: > All I can say is WOW!, but that doesn't quite cut it. AWESOME job! Thanks for the kind words Mark. I still have a lot of work to do, but my goal is to get this airplane into better condition than it was the day it left the factory. We've just about got it to "mechanically perfect", but I ran out of $$$ before I could get the interior done and all the avionics upgrades I wanted complete. One step at a time, right? So, if I make the fly-in, I'm not going to be shunned for flying something other than a Commander, right? :-) chris do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:41 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Chris, I have a bit of time in an Aztec, but not the older models. I did my ME on an Apache, which crashed a week after I got my ticket, nearly killing the instructor and the student. What I remember is that the later model Aztecs had quite a pitch down when lowering the flaps and I always lowered the flaps incrementally alternated with nose up trims. I cannot remember whether the Apache had the same thing. Does the short-nose Aztec do the same thing? Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > > nico css 2 wrote: > > What a nice project, Chris. It didn't help the other folks that it was > > located next to a grave yard either, huh? > > Thanks Nico. This bird has really turned out to be an enjoyable > ownership experience. She's just treating me good, being very reliable, > and also economical at the same time. > You noticed the graves eh? :-) Kind of a strange location wasn't it? > > chris > > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:44 AM PST US From: Chris Schuermann Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann nico css wrote: > What I remember is that the later model Aztecs > had quite a pitch down when lowering the flaps and I always lowered the > flaps incrementally alternated with nose up trims. I cannot remember > whether the Apache had the same thing. Does the short-nose Aztec do the same > thing? I can't say for certain about the plain Apache, but I can confirm that the pitch change on my bird is quite pronounced. It's about the only bad habit that the plane has, but you definitly need to be ready on the trim handle when you toss those flaps out. I do the same "stepped" thing with the flaps and rarely use more than 1/2 flaps for landing. According to the service/parts books I have, the later Aztecs have a spring system which ties the flap torque tube to the elevator controls - I assume to minimize the effect. Never flown one like that though. chris do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:39 PM PST US From: RnJThompson@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: RnJThompson@aol.com Chris, Piper build fine aircraft. Can not say the same for Cessna I WOULD RATHER PUSH MY AERO COMMANDER THAN FLY A CESSNA! Oops ( I own a Cessna) Enough of that. Back on the issue of noise. I have teamed up with one of the formost experts in this field. we have discovered that there are some glaring deficiencies in the test regimes of your beloved FAA and others. I am being forced to test my airplane to ICAO Annex 16 Chapter 6 regulations. The main problem that has arisen is exactly what configuration the aircaft has to be in . The interesting thing is that our noise regulator Airservices have put forward a set of parameters that they will accept. Our aircraft regulator CASA has decreed that the flight profile that the noise boys require is ILLEGAL interms of Australian legislation. So I am beginning to enjoy all of this. It is unusual to have the regulator on my side for once. I will keep you all posted on events. One thing that will happen is that the aircraft will be tested and certified to be compliant in accordance with the ICAO rules. I am going to make this information and all test results availiable to all of you and to TCAC. So if anyone has this problem in the future you will have up to date data to fight with. Regards Richard ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:19 PM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON Folks, Just adding a little bit to Richard's noise story, in fact what the noise nazi's want is the aircraft to be operated outside the FAA AFM Operating Limitations, given that such tests were completed in this fashion, the test results would be evidence for a charge of reckless and negligent operation of the aircraft. "Hi, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you" Cheers, Bill Hamilton. ZK-DCF At 08:49 25/06/2004, you wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: RnJThompson@aol.com > >Chris, > >Piper build fine aircraft. >Can not say the same for Cessna > >I WOULD RATHER PUSH MY AERO COMMANDER THAN FLY A CESSNA! > >Oops >( I own a Cessna) > >Enough of that. >Back on the issue of noise. >I have teamed up with one of the formost experts in this field. we have >discovered that there are some glaring deficiencies in the test regimes of >your >beloved FAA and others. >I am being forced to test my airplane to ICAO Annex 16 Chapter 6 regulations. >The main problem that has arisen is exactly what configuration the aircaft >has to be in . >The interesting thing is that our noise regulator Airservices have put >forward a set of parameters that they will accept. Our aircraft regulator >CASA has >decreed that the flight profile that the noise boys require is ILLEGAL >interms >of Australian legislation. So I am beginning to enjoy all of this. It is >unusual to have the regulator on my side for once. > >I will keep you all posted on events. >One thing that will happen is that the aircraft will be tested and certified >to be compliant in accordance with the ICAO rules. > >I am going to make this information and all test results availiable to all of >you and to TCAC. So if anyone has this problem in the future you will have up >to date data to fight with. > >Regards >Richard > > CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net. & . This message is intended for and should only be used by the addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information.If you are not the intended recipient any use distribution,disclosure or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.Confidentiality and legal privilege attached to this communication are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery to you.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately to Australia 61 (0)408 876 526 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:13 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/2004 4:36:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au writes: "Hi, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you" AMEN!! jb ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:05 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: flyin --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/2004 9:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, mrp37@mindspring.com writes: The Fly-in forms are on my desk, and will go out today. Jim, what's the count so far? We are approaching 30!! This is by far the most I have had registered at this early time. This should be a GREAT flyin. Hope you can make it!! Is a Commander in your future?? I know of a guy who might be interested in you T-210. jb