---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/14/04: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:48 AM - Re: Commander 500 - Automotive Fuel? (Curtis Perry) 2. 06:37 PM - Re: Commander 500 - Automotive Fuel? (W J R HAMILTON) 3. 07:12 PM - (Jim Addington) 4. 09:29 PM - AVGAS and Twin Commanders (tylor.hall) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:31 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500 - Automotive Fuel? From: Curtis Perry --> Commander-List message posted by: Curtis Perry The following came from the Peterson Aviation Inc., 984 K Road Minden, Nebraska 68959 phone 308/832-2050 fax 308/832-2311 It shows the Lycoming engines approved for their STC. The O 540 A2B is listed as approved for the 91 Octane STC, which is the engine I thought was in the Commander 500. I did check and Peterson said they've never tested the Commander 500 air frame. Curt Perry ENGINES APPROVED FOR AUTO FUEL An asterisk denotes 91 octane minimum. All others are 87 octane minimum, with the exception of some R-1830's.Lycoming: 0-145-B1, -B2, -B3, -C1, -C2, GO-145-C1, -C2,-C3, -A1, -A2 0-235-C, -C1, -C1B, -E1, -E1B, -C1C, -C1A, -H2C, -C2A, -C2B, -E2A, -E2B, -L2A*, -L2C*, -M1*, -M2C*, -M3C*, -N2A*, -N2C*, -P1*, -P2A*, -P2C*, -P3C* 0-290, -A, -AP, -B, (0-290-1), -C, (0-290-3),-CP, -D, (0-290-11), -D2, -D2A, -D2B, -D2C 0-320, 0-320-A1A, -A1B, -A2A, -A2B, -A2C,-A2D, -A3A, -A3B, -A3C, -B1A*, -B1B*, -B2A*,-B2B*, -B2C*, -B3A*, -B3B*, -B3C*, -C1A, -C1B, -C2A, -C2B, -C2C, -C3A,-C3B, -C3C, -D1A*, -D1B*, -D1C*, -D1D*, -D1F*, -D2A*, -D2B*, -D2C*, -D2F*, -D2G*, -D2H*, -D2J*, -D3G*, -E1A, -E1B,- E1C, -E1F, -E2A, -E2B, -E2C, -E2D, -E2F, -E2G,-E2H, -E3D, -E3H,-E1J. 0-360-B1A, -B1B, -B2A, -B2B, -D1A, -D2A,-D2B, -A1A*, -A1AD*, -A1D*,-A1F*,-A1F6*, -A1F6D*, A1H6*, -A1G*,-A1G6*, -A1G6D*, -A1H*, -A1LD*, -A2A*, -A2D*, -A2E*, -A2F*, -A2G*, -A2H*,-A3A*, -A4D*,-A4N*, -A3AD*, -A3D*,-A4A*, -A4AD*, -A4G*, -A4J*, -A4K*, -A4M*, -A5AD*, -C1A*, -C1C*, -C1F*, -C1G*, -C2A*, -C2C*, -C1E*, -C2E*, -F1A6*, -G1A6*, -J2A*, H0-360-C1A* 0-435, 0-435-A, 0-435-C (0-435-1),0-435-C1,(0-435-11), 0-435-C2 (0-435-13) 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*, -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* On Tuesday, December 14, 2004, at 01:58 PM, CloudCraft@aol.com wrote: > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 12/13/04 4:33:49 PM Mountain Standard Time, > cperry@subictel.com writes: > > << Are we correct the 500 is the only model that can use the MoGas > STC? >>\ > > This subject was reasearched by the Twin Commander Flight Group in > 1997. My > information dates back to that time. > > Lycoming will not allow any of their engines (or at least engine > series that > are powering Twin Commanders) to run on MoGas. > > A surprising fact was not one I expected: Lycoming does not like the > chlorine > content of MoGas and this is one of the main reasons they disallow > their > engines to operate on it. > > As Bill and Chris indicated, if Teledyne Continental will allow MoGas > in the > IO-470, the Commander 500A could be a candidate, but I doubt that an > engine ot > that power output is going to be found running on MoGas. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:14 PM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500 - Automotive Fuel? --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON Folks, MOGAS STCs in general. All of the MOGAS STCs for US built engines I have ever dealt with have been established by individuals or companies as a commercial venture, as far as I recall both TCM and Lycoming claim MOGAS as a nono. The ASTM specifications for what constitutes avgas are relatively flexible, in at least one instance of which I am aware, the 100LL (meets ASTM specs. for 100/130) is from a refinery that produces "Premium unleaded", and a very small amount of tetraethyl lead is added, about 10% of a typical lead load in 100LL from many older refineries. In short, about the only problem in running many older TCM engines (certified on 80/87) on this kind of premium unleaded is potential exhaust seat/valve problems. It would seem this is a "potential problem", the many mogas STCs experience has not produced the valve seat problems experienced in old motor car engines.. Selling older aircraft in Australia, having a mogas STC is a VERY big selling point, and it is availability, not price, which is the driver. One of the reasons for the 500A is I hope to eventually visit a few places around the Pacific Rim where supplied of avgas are nil. Hence the need to run on mogas in some remote places, where you can't even have drum stock positioned in advance, at any price. Cheers, Bill Hamilton. At 16:58 14/12/2004, you wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > >In a message dated 12/13/04 4:33:49 PM Mountain Standard Time, >cperry@subictel.com writes: > ><< Are we correct the 500 is the only model that can use the MoGas STC? >>\ > >This subject was reasearched by the Twin Commander Flight Group in 1997. My >information dates back to that time. > >Lycoming will not allow any of their engines (or at least engine series that >are powering Twin Commanders) to run on MoGas. > >A surprising fact was not one I expected: Lycoming does not like the chlorine >content of MoGas and this is one of the main reasons they disallow their >engines to operate on it. > >As Bill and Chris indicated, if Teledyne Continental will allow MoGas in the >IO-470, the Commander 500A could be a candidate, but I doubt that an >engine ot >that power output is going to be found running on MoGas. > >Wing Commander Gordon > > CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net. & . This message is intended for and should only be used by the addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information.If you are not the intended recipient any use distribution,disclosure or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.Confidentiality and legal privilege attached to this communication are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery to you.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately to Australia 61 (0)408 876 526 Dolores capitis non fero. Eos do. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:14 PM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: Commander-List: 1.16 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington" MOGAS Depending on how long the legs are, if you have a plane ( C310 or Baron etc.)that has several tanks and a tank selector you can carry avgas in one tank and mogas in the others. You take off and land on the avgas and when you get to crz and have reduced power, switch to the mogas. However that does not work in the Commander because all tanks are joined. I don't know that I would want to make an every day thing of that though. Jim Addington N444BD ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:18 PM PST US From: "tylor.hall" Subject: Commander-List: AVGAS and Twin Commanders --> Commander-List message posted by: "tylor.hall" I was looking at the www.eaa.org and their list of STC for AVGAS. They stated that all of their STC are for only for engines that run on 80/87 AVGAS. On www.gami.com (the injector people) you will find that they are working on an ignition system that reads the pressure inside of the cylinders and adjusts the timing to eliminate detonation. This would allow the engine to run on lower octane fuel. I have seen it work in a prototype stage. Someone may want to call them and see how the STC process is gong. TEL or lead does two things in aviation engines. The first is to stop detonation. The second is it lubricated the valves and seats. Lubrication can be solved with additives in the gas. The first is part of the fuel or the ignition system. I recently got a report of the committee that is working on the unleaded AVGAS problem. They are trying all kinds of different formulas to come up with a fuel that will work in aviation engines without modification of the engine. There is no solution in site yet. Tylor Hall