---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/24/05: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:03 AM - FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 2. 07:50 AM - Re: (Brock Lorber) 3. 08:36 AM - [Q] *REAL* Commander Ownership Cost (dcm@c-sw.com) 4. 08:45 AM - Re: FAA Action (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 5. 08:58 AM - Re: FAA Action (Bobby Sather) 6. 09:07 AM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 7. 09:18 AM - Re: FAA Action (CloudCraft@aol.com) 8. 09:21 AM - Re: FAA Action (Bobby Sather) 9. 09:28 AM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 10. 09:29 AM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 11. 09:34 AM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 12. 09:37 AM - Re: FAA Action (nico css) 13. 09:37 AM - Re: FAA Action (nico css) 14. 10:02 AM - Re: FAA Action (CloudCraft@aol.com) 15. 10:20 AM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 16. 11:31 AM - Re: FAA Action (CloudCraft@aol.com) 17. 11:44 AM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 18. 11:53 AM - Re: FAA Action (Tom Fisher) 19. 11:55 AM - Re: [Q] *REAL* Commander Ownership Cost (Tom Fisher) 20. 12:44 PM - [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? (dcm@c-sw.com) 21. 01:58 PM - Re: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? (CloudCraft@aol.com) 22. 02:00 PM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 23. 02:21 PM - Re: FAA Action (Tom Fisher) 24. 02:57 PM - Re: FAA Action (CloudCraft@aol.com) 25. 03:16 PM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 26. 03:40 PM - Re: FAA Action (CloudCraft@aol.com) 27. 03:52 PM - Re: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 28. 03:57 PM - Re: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 29. 04:25 PM - Re: FAA Action (Kerry Johnson) 30. 05:09 PM - Re: FAA Action (W J R HAMILTON) 31. 05:32 PM - Re: FAA Action (nico css) 32. 05:48 PM - Hydraulic pump (Ray Mansfield) 33. 06:04 PM - Re: FAA Action (CloudCraft@aol.com) 34. 06:18 PM - Re: FAA Action (CloudCraft@aol.com) 35. 06:47 PM - Re: FAA Action (nico css) 36. 07:40 PM - Re: FAA Action (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 37. 08:02 PM - Re: FAA Action (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 38. 09:22 PM - Re: FAA Action (Brock Lorber - VegasFC) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:54 AM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Hi everyone, I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so they have launched an investigation. There's an article about it on AVWEB: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if you want to read about it. It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. KV Electric, INC. Kerry Johnson 1139 North 1210 West St. George, UT 84770 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:26 AM PST US From: "Brock Lorber" Subject: RE: Commander-List: --> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber" Ray: I want your A&P! I haven't found anyone who can do anything to the IO-720s in less than 1-2 weeks, let alone 1-2 hours! Thank goodness I do my own oil changes, or the airplane would never fly! Mason: The pump and seal are located in the second most fun to work on spot on the entire airplane (the first is where the electric fuel pump lives in the aft nacelle). Once you move or remove the induction hoses, fuel/oil/hydraulic/upper deck lines, and air cleaner (if you are working on the right engine), the real fun begins. A good set of stubby end wrenches, dexterous fingers, a powerful magnet, aspirin, and a fifth of Jack Daniels are required tools. Just bend your arm under the turbo and over the hydraulic pump, and with the tips of two fingers, put the wrench on the nuts on the fuel pump side of the hydraulic pump. Loosen approximately 1/64th of one thread (you won't be able to move the wrench any more than that), flip the wrench over, and reposition on the nut. After two or three cycles, your fingers will get tired. Don't worry, you will soon drop the wrench (which will slide under the fuel servo and wedge itself between the bottom of the compartment and the fuel servo) giving you a much needed break. By the way, all four nuts on the hydraulic pump need to be backed off more or less together, or they will become jam nuts on the case of the hydraulic pump. After all four nuts and washers are off the pump and you've fished them out of the oil in the bottom of the engine compartment, remove the pump and replace the seal and gasket. Take time to congratulate yourself at this point; you are approximately 10% complete with this project! Replacement makes removal look like a snap! Or...get Ray's A&P to do it! Good luck! Trust me, I feel for you. Brock - 400CH -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Mansfield Subject: Re: Commander-List: --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ray Mansfield" Don't think there's an easy way. Just had that done to the 680FLP, IO-720 I fly by an A&P, took him quite a while. Not sure how long but I think we're talking 1-2 hrs, however I do think it was his first time doing the job. . Ray M. ----- Original Message ----- From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Commander-List: > --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" > > DOES ANYONE HAVE A EASY ACCESS AND WAY TO CHANGE A GARLOCK SEAL AND GASKET > AND THE HYDROLIC PUMP ON OFF THE ACCESSORY CASE ON AN IO720 EQUIPED 680FP? > THANK YOU FOR ANY HELP. MASON N2001M > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:10 AM PST US From: "dcm@c-sw.com" Subject: Commander-List: [Q] *REAL* Commander Ownership Cost --> Commander-List message posted by: "dcm@c-sw.com" Greetings Group, Can someone *ballpark* relative costs of ownership of an older Twin Commander (e.g. 520, 560, 500) for a wanna-be-owner? (I know it depends on aircraft condition, but I am looking for a couple of data points from individual experiences.) Please note that I am not a Twin Commander owner, but am fascinated with the design. Keep in mind that I am in my 2nd ownership experience (Beech Sundowner). I previously owned a Piper Lance. In general terms, my ownership experiences so far have shown that the first annual has been the only rough experience, costing an amount equal to 5-10% of the purchase price. Buying has been the easiest part, perhaps because it is exciting! (I always do a pre-buy inspection, BTW.) My maintenance shop is meticulous and it takes $$$ to get "up to their standards". Any and all information will be much appreciated! Kind Regards, David ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:51 AM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:04:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. I am sorry to report that this is the way the FAA operates and has for about 3 decades now. They took Bob Hoover down and will almost certainly get this guy as well. Boston Tea party anyone?? jb ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:56 AM PST US From: "Bobby Sather" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bobby Sather" Does anyone have the name of the helio pilot that was flying the Blackhawk? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Johnson Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Hi everyone, I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so they have launched an investigation. There's an article about it on AVWEB: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if you want to read about it. It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. KV Electric, INC. Kerry Johnson 1139 North 1210 West St. George, UT 84770 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:18 AM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" I could probably find it, but what good would that do? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby Sather Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bobby Sather" --> Does anyone have the name of the helio pilot that was flying the Blackhawk? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Johnson Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Hi everyone, I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so they have launched an investigation. There's an article about it on AVWEB: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if you want to read about it. It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. KV Electric, INC. Kerry Johnson 1139 North 1210 West St. George, UT 84770 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:46 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 07:04:46 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a > Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so > they have launched an investigation. > What FARs did he violate? Name chapter and verse; that's the only way to mount a defense. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:28 AM PST US From: "Bobby Sather" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bobby Sather" Just curious, I think a letter to the Blackhawk pilot would be in order for being so officious. I also think that letters to the FAA on this subject would be good. I live in the Washington, Utah area and admire Jeremy's efforts in helping those in need. This was such a terrible tragedy for so many families and to reprimanded for the things he did is also a tragedy. To receive compensation for services without part 135 is against the law. But he did not receive compensation but suggested a donation to a charitable cause. Where can this be viewed as compensation is beyond my understanding. I believe the FAA has a responsibility to explain the violation to us so we understand. Bobby Sather -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Johnson Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" I could probably find it, but what good would that do? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby Sather Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bobby Sather" --> Does anyone have the name of the helio pilot that was flying the Blackhawk? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Johnson Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Hi everyone, I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so they have launched an investigation. There's an article about it on AVWEB: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if you want to read about it. It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. KV Electric, INC. Kerry Johnson 1139 North 1210 West St. George, UT 84770 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:38 AM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" The letter Jeremy got from the FAA just says that they are launching an investigation. Once they finish their investigation they will let he know which FAR's they believe he violated and he will be able to respond to them. By the way, the FAA has already received letters from Mayor Denny Drake of Santa Clara, and Kirk Smith, Washington County Sheriff stating that Jeremy was under their direction and that he refused any compensation, even for fuel costs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 07:04:46 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and > a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the > FAA so they have launched an investigation. > What FARs did he violate? Name chapter and verse; that's the only way to mount a defense. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:37 AM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" I'll find out they guys name and who he was working for, probably post it here tomorrow. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby Sather Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bobby Sather" --> Just curious, I think a letter to the Blackhawk pilot would be in order for being so officious. I also think that letters to the FAA on this subject would be good. I live in the Washington, Utah area and admire Jeremy's efforts in helping those in need. This was such a terrible tragedy for so many families and to reprimanded for the things he did is also a tragedy. To receive compensation for services without part 135 is against the law. But he did not receive compensation but suggested a donation to a charitable cause. Where can this be viewed as compensation is beyond my understanding. I believe the FAA has a responsibility to explain the violation to us so we understand. Bobby Sather -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Johnson Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" I could probably find it, but what good would that do? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby Sather Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bobby Sather" --> Does anyone have the name of the helio pilot that was flying the Blackhawk? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Johnson Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Hi everyone, I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so they have launched an investigation. There's an article about it on AVWEB: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if you want to read about it. It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. KV Electric, INC. Kerry Johnson 1139 North 1210 West St. George, UT 84770 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:03 AM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" I forgot to add that the two they seem fixated on are one about transporting explosives without a HAZMAT permit, when he transported the dynamite and demo man across the river and that he didn't give the FAA 7 days notice before he did the charity/donation flights I don't know the chapter and verse off hand. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 07:04:46 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and > a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the > FAA so they have launched an investigation. > What FARs did he violate? Name chapter and verse; that's the only way to mount a defense. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:45 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" So many folks would like to earn a buck or two by making a willing passenger pay for the privilege of air transportation. We are not talking about packing a plane full of unsuspecting pax and then fly them somewhere under the impression that they are getting a very good deal in competition with Delta, or Southwest. But, if there is a willing customer who understands the risks (private pilot, SE plane, short trip) and a willing pilot, why would it be wrong to practice free enterprise? Prosecuting Jeremy, if he used his own chopper to help save lives, would see folks in future sit with folded arms while others lose their lives. If the pilot is prepared to face serious consequences for the sake of others, without a change in the law, it becomes a one-way ticket because if Jeremy loses his license, he would most likely sell his chopper and next time, he will be compelled to sit and watch folks in trouble go down anyway. So, nobody would lift a finger. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > Hi everyone, > > I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things > and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I > Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here > during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. > > We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many > homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are > either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy > volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty > much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people > caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off > from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across > the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the > flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on > his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also > offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping > out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around > $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. > > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a > Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so > they have launched an investigation. > > There's an article about it on AVWEB: > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if > you want to read about it. > > It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense > or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do > with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. > Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the > rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. > > KV Electric, INC. > > Kerry Johnson > 1139 North 1210 West > St. George, UT 84770 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:46 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Oh, it's a natural desire to go and read to him Leviticus, you know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > I could probably find it, but what good would that do? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby > Sather > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bobby Sather" > --> > > Does anyone have the name of the helio pilot that was flying the > Blackhawk? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kerry > Johnson > To: 'Commander Chat' > Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > > Hi everyone, > > I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things > and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I > Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here > during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. > > We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many > homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are > either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy > volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty > much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people > caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off > from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across > the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the > flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on > his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also > offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping > out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around > $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. > > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a > Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so > they have launched an investigation. > > There's an article about it on AVWEB: > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if > you want to read about it. > > It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense > or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do > with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. > Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the > rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. > > KV Electric, INC. > > Kerry Johnson > 1139 North 1210 West > St. George, UT 84770 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:18 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 09:29:10 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > By the way, the FAA has already received letters from Mayor Denny Drake > of Santa Clara, and Kirk Smith, Washington County Sheriff stating that > Jeremy was under their direction and that he refused any compensation, > even for fuel costs. If he was, indeed, operating as a "Public Service" aircraft, he is exempt from all FARs. When I flew (an Aero Commander, of course!) on contract for the U. S. Forest Service, I learned that the San Bernadino Sheriff's helicopter pilot did not have a license. And the surplus military helo did not have an airworthiness certificate. Didn't have to: public service aircraft. To be fair, most government agencies do operate under Part 91, if not 135 rules, but they do not have to and if the Sheriff will stand up to the FAA,=20it should all go away. (Would have been nice if he had been deputized) Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:08 AM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" I'm aware of the "Public Service" exemption and I it should negate any FAA action on everything except the charity rides. If it really gets ugly and the FAA won't back off, we will probably give Senator Bennett a call and see if he can help out. Since he is on the Transportation Appropriations Committee I think he would have a little influence. I just think it is such a sad affair that a government agency, that is specifically there to protect the public would be so myopic as to believe that prosecuting anyone who did what Jeremy did would promote the public good. It seems counter-productive to me. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 09:29:10 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > By the way, the FAA has already received letters from Mayor Denny > Drake of Santa Clara, and Kirk Smith, Washington County Sheriff > stating that Jeremy was under their direction and that he refused any > compensation, even for fuel costs. If he was, indeed, operating as a "Public Service" aircraft, he is exempt from all FARs. When I flew (an Aero Commander, of course!) on contract for the U. S. Forest Service, I learned that the San Bernadino Sheriff's helicopter pilot did not have a license. And the surplus military helo did not have an airworthiness certificate. Didn't have to: public service aircraft. To be fair, most government agencies do operate under Part 91, if not 135 rules, but they do not have to and if the Sheriff will stand up to the FAA,=20it should all go away. (Would have been nice if he had been deputized) Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:42 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 10:20:52 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > If it really gets ugly and the FAA won't back off, we will probably give > Senator Bennett a call and see if he can help out. Since he is on the > Transportation Appropriations Committee I think he would have a little > influence. Don't wait. Start that process right now. You'll save tons of time if you do. Maybe even head it off at the pass. Re: the Blackhawk pilot reporting Jeremy ... I am not apologizing for him or his actions be aware that when agencies are working an incident they get territorial. They're busy, they're communicating on discreet frequencies and any "outsider" is an intruder, regardless of intent. Jeremy was doing excellent work but he may have gotten near their Ops and that's a real hot button. Again, from my Air Attack days, we'd have all these inter-agency aircraft working together in a tightly orchestrated dance and a news helicopter or power company helicopter would show up and piss everyone off. That's could be what's happened here. Sending the Blackhawk pilot a letter in a moot point now. It's in the FAA's hands and it has to be quashed. Pressure from higher up than the FSDO office has to be applied because FSDO has their bible they have to go by unless there's "divine intervention." This is where a Senator comes in handy. Anyone who has met the FAA knows this. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:10 AM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" The one Blackhawk was the only Government aircraft here during the whole time, so I don't know who he could have been talking to on a discrete freq. From what I've heard he was a real jerk, but since I didn't actually see him do any of the things I've heard he did, I won't repeat them. There was one incident Jeremy told me about that may have been the his reason to tattling. He (Blackhawk) had landed out in the boonies by Matoquaw to pick up some stragglers, he told the Sheriff he would only wait 5 minutes and then would leave. He took off with three people driving to get to him that were within half a block, thereby stranding them. Jeremy went in after he left and picked them up per the Sheriff's request. Jeremy also tells me now, that the Blackhawk pilot is the FAA official that has been assigned to "investigate". With that last bit of information, I think I agree with you, that it's time to contact Senator Bennett. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 10:20:52 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > If it really gets ugly and the FAA won't back off, we will probably > give Senator Bennett a call and see if he can help out. Since he is on > the Transportation Appropriations Committee I think he would have a > little influence. Don't wait. Start that process right now. You'll save tons of time if you do. Maybe even head it off at the pass. Re: the Blackhawk pilot reporting Jeremy ... I am not apologizing for him or his actions be aware that when agencies are working an incident they get territorial. They're busy, they're communicating on discreet frequencies and any "outsider" is an intruder, regardless of intent. Jeremy was doing excellent work but he may have gotten near their Ops and that's a real hot button. Again, from my Air Attack days, we'd have all these inter-agency aircraft working together in a tightly orchestrated dance and a news helicopter or power company helicopter would show up and piss everyone off. That's could be what's happened here. Sending the Blackhawk pilot a letter in a moot point now. It's in the FAA's hands and it has to be quashed. Pressure from higher up than the FSDO office has to be applied because FSDO has their bible they have to go by unless there's "divine intervention." This is where a Senator comes in handy. Anyone who has met the FAA knows this. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:28 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Kerry, without yet reading the article you do understand that these rules are all to protect the general public. I am a seasoned helicopter pilot with years of IFR medevac experience. I needed to take "dangerous goods transportation" courses throughout my career in order to carry same. Flying dynamite takes knowledge in order to do it safely. I have seen private operators flying from fair to fair in the summer offering tours if the manager of the fair got a cut (did it myself in my youth). Some of these helicopters were flying with time X engines (not mine) allowed in the private sector but not in the commercial sector. In the rescue business one takes precautions in order not to make the situation worse by killing additional people. It's all risky at best. I hope this young lad manages his way through the FAA red tape. I support his actions hoping that he knew everything was as it should be with his equipment and training which will be accepted by the FAA. Tom F ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > Hi everyone, > > I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things > and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I > Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here > during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. > > We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many > homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are > either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy > volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty > much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people > caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off > from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across > the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the > flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on > his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also > offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping > out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around > $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. > > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a > Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so > they have launched an investigation. > > There's an article about it on AVWEB: > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if > you want to read about it. > > It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense > or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do > with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. > Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the > rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. > > KV Electric, INC. > > Kerry Johnson > 1139 North 1210 West > St. George, UT 84770 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:43 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: [Q] *REAL* Commander Ownership Cost --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" You heard the old saying, "if you have to ask how much it costs to operate you can't afford it". I intend to buck that theory myself, good luck. Tom F ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: [Q] *REAL* Commander Ownership Cost > --> Commander-List message posted by: "dcm@c-sw.com" > > Greetings Group, > > Can someone *ballpark* relative costs of ownership of an older Twin > Commander (e.g. 520, 560, 500) for a wanna-be-owner? (I know it depends on > aircraft condition, but I am looking for a couple of data points from > individual experiences.) Please note that I am not a Twin Commander owner, > but am fascinated with the design. Keep in mind that I am in my 2nd > ownership experience (Beech Sundowner). I previously owned a Piper Lance. > > In general terms, my ownership experiences so far have shown that the first > annual has been the only rough experience, costing an amount equal to 5-10% > of the purchase price. Buying has been the easiest part, perhaps because > it is exciting! (I always do a pre-buy inspection, BTW.) My maintenance > shop is meticulous and it takes $$$ to get "up to their standards". > > Any and all information will be much appreciated! > > Kind Regards, > David > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:20 PM PST US From: "dcm@c-sw.com" Subject: Commander-List: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? --> Commander-List message posted by: "dcm@c-sw.com" Greetings Group, In Trade-A-Plane, I saw the following: "1954 560, S/N 186, SEATS 7, Needs paint. All new glass, New Props (30 hrs), New oil filtration, Dual Narco MK-12D NavComs, HSI. 3400 AFTT, 1260 SMOH. Last annual 11/2001. $45K, CA/(831) 335-2745." The way this ad strikes me is that the first annual would be HUGH! (O.K., that's obvious). Is there any other way to view an airplane that hasn't been annualed in over three years as anything besides a project? What would "typical" hull value of such an airplane be? That is, if the purchase price were low enough, it could be considered a good buy if the purchaser were prepared to rebuild it. Do y'all agree? Maybe if the asking price were lowered by 50% this airplane could be considered a possibility for a value-priced rebuild project? (If a pre-buy showed various components, hoses, etc. to be of serviceable condition, some $ could be added back to the purchase price.) TIA for any responses. Kind Regards, David ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:27 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com There is no such thing as a $45K twin. Sure, you could buy it at $45, maybe negociate less, but expect to be into it closer to $100K before you fly it to your home aerodrome. $100K may seem a bit over the top, but as you start to find out what it needs and add what you want, I'd be amazed it it was much less. Yes, I'm skeptical, but I've seen this so many times before that I'm pretty confident on those numbers. By the way, if this is the airplane I'm thinking of, saying it needs paint is quite an understatment. On the up side, only 3/4 of it will need to be stripped before repainting. It hasn't flown in 3 years. Are the bladders full of gas? If not, expect to replace some. Have the mixtures been left in idle cut off? If so, expect to overhaul 2 pressure carburetors. Before you start these engines, remove the plugs and pull the prop through (the correct direction, don't back turn it) and get the oil out of the cylinders to avoid hydrostatic lock. In other words, this airplane screams PROJECT! Not that that's a bad thing -- if you want a project. It's a Commander; it deserves to be restored but=20as a wise man already said, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it." Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:39 PM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Tom, Jeremy is my oldest son so I may be a bit biased. I understand the reasons for the rules, and I believe they are necessary, but in this case what was done has nothing to do with those reasons. The flying he was doing with dynamite aboard, was only from one side of the flooded river to the other side. Jeremy never handled it, and the only passenger was the demolition expert, who was also the person handling the dynamite. If there had been another way to get the demo man and his goods across the river they would have used it because it was dark and blustery. There was no other way and if Jeremy hadn't taken them across, they would not have made it across the river. Two homes had already been devoured by the river because the obstruction dam had diverted the river out of it's normal channel and more homes were threatened. This was a last ditch effort to blast the obstruction apart and get the river back into it's channel and would only have been possible from one side of the river, which of course was the other side that couldn't be gotten to other than by air. As far as his equipment is concerned, it a 2003 R44 with about 400 hours TT and it is kept properly maintained. If I had been there and had the skills to do the flying I would have done the same thing. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" --> Kerry, without yet reading the article you do understand that these rules are all to protect the general public. I am a seasoned helicopter pilot with years of IFR medevac experience. I needed to take "dangerous goods transportation" courses throughout my career in order to carry same. Flying dynamite takes knowledge in order to do it safely. I have seen private operators flying from fair to fair in the summer offering tours if the manager of the fair got a cut (did it myself in my youth). Some of these helicopters were flying with time X engines (not mine) allowed in the private sector but not in the commercial sector. In the rescue business one takes precautions in order not to make the situation worse by killing additional people. It's all risky at best. I hope this young lad manages his way through the FAA red tape. I support his actions hoping that he knew everything was as it should be with his equipment and training which will be accepted by the FAA. Tom F ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > Hi everyone, > > I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing > things and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my > business I Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things > happening here during the last few weeks I think you may be interested > in. > > We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many > homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are > either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy > volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty > much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people > caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut > off from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man > across the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was > diverting the flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he > did this all on his dime, and would not accept any compensation from > anyone. He also offered to give tours to anyone who would donate > $100.00 toward helping out one family that had lost everything. He > ended up raising around $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get > back on their feet. > > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and > a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the > FAA so they have launched an investigation. > > There's an article about it on AVWEB: > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if > you want to read about it. > > It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense > or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to > do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. > Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the > rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. > > KV Electric, INC. > > Kerry Johnson > 1139 North 1210 West > St. George, UT 84770 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:47 PM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" As I said from the outset I had not even read the article. You should be proud of your son, I would have done the same, it's all risk management. I hope/believe that the ordeal he is about to go through will be primarily paper work and he will come through unscathed. All the best. Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > Tom, > > Jeremy is my oldest son so I may be a bit biased. I understand the > reasons for the rules, and I believe they are necessary, but in this > case what was done has nothing to do with those reasons. The flying he > was doing with dynamite aboard, was only from one side of the flooded > river to the other side. Jeremy never handled it, and the only passenger > was the demolition expert, who was also the person handling the > dynamite. If there had been another way to get the demo man and his > goods across the river they would have used it because it was dark and > blustery. There was no other way and if Jeremy hadn't taken them across, > they would not have made it across the river. Two homes had already been > devoured by the river because the obstruction dam had diverted the river > out of it's normal channel and more homes were threatened. This was a > last ditch effort to blast the obstruction apart and get the river back > into it's channel and would only have been possible from one side of the > river, which of course was the other side that couldn't be gotten to > other than by air. > > As far as his equipment is concerned, it a 2003 R44 with about 400 hours > TT and it is kept properly maintained. > > If I had been there and had the skills to do the flying I would have > done the same thing. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom > Fisher > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" > --> > > Kerry, without yet reading the article you do understand that these > rules are all to protect the general public. I am a seasoned helicopter > pilot with years of IFR medevac experience. I needed to take "dangerous > goods transportation" courses throughout my career in order to carry > same. Flying dynamite takes knowledge in order to do it safely. I have > seen private operators flying from fair to fair in the summer offering > tours if the manager of the fair got a cut (did it myself in my youth). > Some of these helicopters were flying with time X engines (not mine) > allowed in the private sector but not in the commercial sector. In the > rescue business one takes precautions in order not to make the situation > worse by killing additional people. It's all risky at best. I hope this > young lad manages his way through the FAA red tape. I support his > actions hoping that he knew everything was as it should be with his > equipment and training which will be accepted by the FAA. > > Tom F > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kerry Johnson" > To: "'Commander Chat'" > Subject: Commander-List: FAA Action > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing > > things and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my > > business I Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things > > happening here during the last few weeks I think you may be interested > > > in. > > > > We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many > > > homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are > > either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy > > volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty > > > much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people > > caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut > > off from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man > > across the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was > > diverting the flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he > > did this all on his dime, and would not accept any compensation from > > anyone. He also offered to give tours to anyone who would donate > > $100.00 toward helping out one family that had lost everything. He > > ended up raising around $20,000.00 that went to them to help them get > > back on their feet. > > > > Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and > > a Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the > > FAA so they have launched an investigation. > > > > There's an article about it on AVWEB: > > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if > > you want to read about it. > > > > It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense > > > or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to > > do with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. > > > Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the > > rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. > > > > KV Electric, INC. > > > > Kerry Johnson > > 1139 North 1210 West > > St. George, UT 84770 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:53 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 14:01:10 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > Jeremy is my oldest son so I may be a bit biased. I am, too, and he's not even related to me. I've looked through Part 91 and aside from Subpart K, the rules Fractional Operators adhere to (this is like FAR 135 in most respects) there is no reference to hazardous material training or permits being mentioned. That's the good news. The bad news is: TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION CHAPTER I--RESEARCH AND SPECIAL PROGRAMS ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION PART 175_CARRIAGE BY AIRCRAFT--Table of Contents Subpart A_General Information and Regulations Sec. 175.5 Applicability. (a) This part applies to the acceptance for transportation, loading and transportation of hazardous materials in any aircraft in the United States and in aircraft of United States registry anywhere in air commerce. This part does not apply to: (1) Aircraft owned and operated by a government when not engaged in carrying persons or property for commercial purposes; (2) Aircraft which are not owned by a government nor engaged in carrying persons or property for commercial purposes but which are under the exclusive direction and control of a government for a period of not less than 90 days as specified in a written contract or lease. An aircraft is under the exclusive direction and control of a government when the government exercises responsibility for: (i) Approving crew members and determining that they are qualified to operate the aircraft; (ii) Determining the airworthiness and directing maintenance of the aircraft; and (iii) Dispatching the aircraft, including the times of departure, airports to be used, and type and amount of cargo to be carried; (3) Aircraft of United States registry under lease to and operated by foreign nationals outside the United States if: (i) Hazardous materials forbidden aboard aircraft by Sec. 172.101 of this subchapter are not carried on the aircraft; and (ii) Other hazardous materials are carried in accordance with the regulations of the State (nation) of the aircraft operator. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:01 PM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Boy, that is as clear as MUD. The way I read that, none of it applies to what Jeremy was doing because he was not involved in any commercial enterprise. There is no written contract between him and the Government agencies etc. So I suppose that means that the Public Service exemption would not apply? The thing about all this is, that this was an emergency and as such any PIC has the authority to circumvent any FAR if he deems it necessary because of the emergency. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 14:01:10 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > Jeremy is my oldest son so I may be a bit biased. I am, too, and he's not even related to me. I've looked through Part 91 and aside from Subpart K, the rules Fractional Operators adhere to (this is like FAR 135 in most respects) there is no reference to hazardous material training or permits being mentioned. That's the good news. The bad news is: TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION CHAPTER I--RESEARCH AND SPECIAL PROGRAMS ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION PART 175_CARRIAGE BY AIRCRAFT--Table of Contents Subpart A_General Information and Regulations Sec. 175.5 Applicability. (a) This part applies to the acceptance for transportation, loading and transportation of hazardous materials in any aircraft in the United States and in aircraft of United States registry anywhere in air commerce. This part does not apply to: (1) Aircraft owned and operated by a government when not engaged in carrying persons or property for commercial purposes; (2) Aircraft which are not owned by a government nor engaged in carrying persons or property for commercial purposes but which are under the exclusive direction and control of a government for a period of not less than 90 days as specified in a written contract or lease. An aircraft is under the exclusive direction and control of a government when the government exercises responsibility for: (i) Approving crew members and determining that they are qualified to operate the aircraft; (ii) Determining the airworthiness and directing maintenance of the aircraft; and (iii) Dispatching the aircraft, including the times of departure, airports to be used, and type and amount of cargo to be carried; (3) Aircraft of United States registry under lease to and operated by foreign nationals outside the United States if: (i) Hazardous materials forbidden aboard aircraft by Sec. 172.101 of this subchapter are not carried on the aircraft; and (ii) Other hazardous materials are carried in accordance with the regulations of the State (nation) of the aircraft operator. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:37 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 15:16:48 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > There is no written contract between him and the Government > agencies etc. So I suppose that means that the Public Service exemption > would not apply? > I'll play Devil's Advocate so you can brain storm around the FAA's mentality. My take is that with no public service agreement equal to or longer than 90 days, he can't claim public service so that defense is out. FAR 91.3 ... "(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot incommand may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent requiredto meet that emergency." A disaster is not an in-flight emergency. Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:17 PM PST US From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:51:34 -0600 --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" CALL ME RE PROJECT PLANE AND ONE SITTING FOR 3 TO 4 YEARS. MASON 817-877-4977 ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com There is no such thing as a $45K twin. Sure, you could buy it at $45, maybe negociate less, but expect to be into it closer to $100K before you fly it to your home aerodrome. $100K may seem a bit over the top, but as you start to find out what it needs and add what you want, I'd be amazed it it was much less. Yes, I'm skeptical, but I've seen this so many times before that I'm pretty confident on those numbers. By the way, if this is the airplane I'm thinking of, saying it needs paint is quite an understatment. On the up side, only 3/4 of it will need to be stripped before repainting. It hasn't flown in 3 years. Are the bladders full of gas? If not, expect to replace some. Have the mixtures been left in idle cut off? If so, expect to overhaul 2 pressure carburetors. Before you start these engines, remove the plugs and pull the prop through (the correct direction, don't back turn it) and get the oil out of the cylinders to avoid hydrostatic lock. In other words, this airplane screams PROJECT! Not that that's a bad thing -- if you want a project. It's a Commander; it deserves to be restored but20as a wise man already said, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it." Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:45 PM PST US From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:56:34 -0600 --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" D, GET A GOOD COMMANDER MECHANIC AND HAVE HIM DO A COMPREHENSIVE PREBUY. THEN START TALKING MONEY. MASON ----- Original Message ----- From: dcm@c-sw.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Commander-List: [Q] What's It Really Worth (Ballpark)? --> Commander-List message posted by: "dcm@c-sw.com" > Greetings Group, In Trade-A-Plane, I saw the following: "1954 560, S/N 186, SEATS 7, Needs paint. All new glass, New Props (30 hrs), New oil filtration, Dual Narco MK-12D NavComs, HSI. 3400 AFTT, 1260 SMOH. Last annual 11/2001. $45K, CA/(831) 335-2745." The way this ad strikes me is that the first annual would be HUGH! (O.K., that's obvious). Is there any other way to view an airplane that hasn't been annualed in over three years as anything besides a project? What would "typical" hull value of such an airplane be? That is, if the purchase price were low enough, it could be considered a good buy if the purchaser were prepared to rebuild it. Do y'all agree? Maybe if the asking price were lowered by 50% this airplane could be considered a possibility for a value-priced rebuild project? (If a pre-buy showed various components, hoses, etc. to be of serviceable condition, some $ could be added back to the purchase price.) TIA for any responses. Kind Regards, David ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:09 PM PST US From: "Kerry Johnson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" Well you Devil you, I think I see what you mean. The FAA position would be that just because peoples lives and property on the ground were in danger, that doesn't constitute an "In Flight Emergency". To which we would say, that flight contrary to FARs was the only way to avert the disaster. And if that scenario doesn't constitute an emergency, what does it constitute as far as the airman present at the "occasion" is concerned? What does the FAA expect the said airman to do? Is he supposed to sit on his thumbs and quote FARs as the people drown and their homes are washed away? This could be a very sticky wicket for the FAA. If they do nothing, they could be in trouble for not following up on a well documented violation. If they punish Jeremy for what he did, all hell will probably break loose on them. I know the media is just waiting and hoping for a story, the County Sheriff, the local Mayors, the Search & Rescue and people in general that know about this are all fired up and spoiling for a fight. I wonder, what's the best way out for all concerned? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 15:16:48 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > There is no written contract between him and the Government agencies > etc. So I suppose that means that the Public Service exemption would > not apply? > I'll play Devil's Advocate so you can brain storm around the FAA's mentality. My take is that with no public service agreement equal to or longer than 90 days, he can't claim public service so that defense is out. FAR 91.3 ... "(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot incommand may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent requiredto meet that emergency." A disaster is not an in-flight emergency. Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:05 PM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON Folks, Typical bureaucracy, believe it or not, the FAA for all its faults, is a pillar of virtue compared to some. A little time ago, in an area of severe flooding, with all available aircraft but one, engaged in relief work, a woman on a remote station ( ranch) came into labor, and got into real trouble with a breach birth. The only aircraft available, a C-172, flown by the owner, a PPL and A&P, picked the woman up, and took her to the nearest hospital about 250 nm. Both woman and baby survived, medical evidence at the trial of the pilot was that neither would have lived without getting to hospital. Several weeks after the flight, the grateful father/husband offered an ex-gratia payment to the pilot. CASA got to hear of the payment, and charged the pilot with conducting an illegal commercial operation, ie; without a suitable operating certificate. The pilot was smart enough to elect to have the case heard before a jury, as the charge was a criminal matter. Needless to say, the jury found the miscreant NOT GUILTY. As payback, the maintenance business of the pilot, an A&P ( in Australia a LAME) was hounded by CASA, he was driven out of business and bankrupted. As the former President of AOPA Australia, and Technical Director (still) I have files full of similar vindictive action. The effect of an oppressive regulator in Australia is the reason GA is not so slowly fading away. Regards, Bill Hamilton. At 02:05 25/01/2005, you wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > >Hi everyone, > >I haven't posted here for quite awhile, seems life keeps changing things >and we have to change to keep up. I've been so busy with my business I >Just haven't had much spare time. But we had some things happening here >during the last few weeks I think you may be interested in. > >We had some record breaking flooding here the week of January 10, many >homes were washed away and completely destroyed, 50 at last count are >either gone or condemned. Anyway, during the flooding my son Jeremy >volunteered his R44 and himself to help out and ended up flying pretty >much non-stop for 4 or 5 days doing everything from rescuing people >caught by the rising water to delivering food to people who were cut off >from town and even ferrying some dynamite and the demolition man across >the river so he could try and clear a debris dam that was diverting the >flood toward some homes. I'm very proud of Jeremy as he did this all on >his dime, and would not accept any compensation from anyone. He also >offered to give tours to anyone who would donate $100.00 toward helping >out one family that had lost everything. He ended up raising around >$20,000.00 that went to them to help them get back on their feet. > >Well it appears he may have violated some FAR's in doing all this and a >Helio pilot flying a Blackhawk for the state turned him in to the FAA so >they have launched an investigation. > >There's an article about it on AVWEB: >http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/341-full.html#189017 if >you want to read about it. > >It's pretty sad to think our Government officials have so little sense >or ability to look at a situation and determine if it has anything to do >with why a rule was written or not before they take such an action. >Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharoses in the Gospels, they know the >rule book by memory, but don't have a lick of sense. > >KV Electric, INC. > >Kerry Johnson >1139 North 1210 West >St. George, UT 84770 > > CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net. & . This message is intended for and should only be used by the addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information.If you are not the intended recipient any use distribution,disclosure or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.Confidentiality and legal privilege attached to this communication are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery to you.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately to Australia 61 (0)408 876 526 Dolores capitis non fero. Eos do. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:29 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Aren't the words "...in air commerce" in (a) crucial here? ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 24-Jan-05 14:01:10 Pacific Standard Time, > kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > > > Jeremy is my oldest son so I may be a bit biased. > > I am, too, and he's not even related to me. > > I've looked through Part 91 and aside from Subpart K, the rules Fractional > Operators adhere to (this is like FAR 135 in most respects) there is no > reference to hazardous material training or permits being mentioned. > > That's the good news. The bad news is: > > > TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION > > CHAPTER I--RESEARCH AND SPECIAL PROGRAMS ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF > TRANSPORTATION > > PART 175_CARRIAGE BY AIRCRAFT--Table of Contents > > Subpart A_General Information and Regulations > > Sec. 175.5 Applicability. > > (a) This part applies to the acceptance for transportation, loading > and transportation of hazardous materials in any aircraft in the United > States and in aircraft of United States registry anywhere in air > commerce. This part does not apply to: > (1) Aircraft owned and operated by a government when not engaged in > carrying persons or property for commercial purposes; > (2) Aircraft which are not owned by a government nor engaged in > carrying persons or property for commercial purposes but which are under > the exclusive direction and control of a government for a period of not > less than 90 days as specified in a written contract or lease. An > aircraft is under the exclusive direction and control of a government > when the government exercises responsibility for: > (i) Approving crew members and determining that they are qualified > to operate the aircraft; > (ii) Determining the airworthiness and directing maintenance of the > aircraft; and > (iii) Dispatching the aircraft, including the times of departure, > airports to be used, and type and amount of cargo to be carried; > (3) Aircraft of United States registry under lease to and operated > by foreign nationals outside the United States if: > (i) Hazardous materials forbidden aboard aircraft by Sec. 172.101 > of this subchapter are not carried on the aircraft; and > (ii) Other hazardous materials are carried in accordance with the > regulations of the State (nation) of the aircraft operator. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:02 PM PST US From: "Ray Mansfield" Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic pump --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ray Mansfield" Hi, Not sure if I answered the question correctly although I thought I did. I'm talking 1-2 hrs to change a hydraulic pump only, left engine. I talked with the A&P guy today and he said he thought it took him about 1 1/2 hrs to change the one on the plane I fly...he also said it was his first time changing one. (45 minutes to put it back) When removing it from the left engine he said the only thing needing prior removal were the hydraulic lines. However, on the right engine some of the turbo ducting, air filter and other lines had to be removed before one could get at the pump. Love the description of pump removal below. Am going to print it for my A&P. RM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brock Lorber" Subject: RE: Commander-List: > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber" > > Ray: > > I want your A&P! I haven't found anyone who can do anything to the > IO-720s > in less than 1-2 weeks, let alone 1-2 hours! Thank goodness I do my own > oil > changes, or the airplane would never fly! > > Mason: > > The pump and seal are located in the second most fun to work on spot on > the > entire airplane (the first is where the electric fuel pump lives in the > aft > nacelle). Once you move or remove the induction hoses, > fuel/oil/hydraulic/upper deck lines, and air cleaner (if you are working > on > the right engine), the real fun begins. A good set of stubby end > wrenches, > dexterous fingers, a powerful magnet, aspirin, and a fifth of Jack Daniels > are required tools. > > Just bend your arm under the turbo and over the hydraulic pump, and with > the > tips of two fingers, put the wrench on the nuts on the fuel pump side of > the > hydraulic pump. Loosen approximately 1/64th of one thread (you won't be > able to move the wrench any more than that), flip the wrench over, and > reposition on the nut. After two or three cycles, your fingers will get > tired. Don't worry, you will soon drop the wrench (which will slide under > the fuel servo and wedge itself between the bottom of the compartment and > the fuel servo) giving you a much needed break. > > By the way, all four nuts on the hydraulic pump need to be backed off more > or less together, or they will become jam nuts on the case of the > hydraulic > pump. After all four nuts and washers are off the pump and you've fished > them out of the oil in the bottom of the engine compartment, remove the > pump > and replace the seal and gasket. Take time to congratulate yourself at > this > point; you are approximately 10% complete with this project! Replacement > makes removal look like a snap! > > Or...get Ray's A&P to do it! > > Good luck! Trust me, I feel for you. > > Brock - 400CH > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray > Mansfield > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ray Mansfield" > > Don't think there's an easy way. Just had that done to the 680FLP, > IO-720 > I fly by an A&P, took him quite a while. Not sure how long but I think > we're > > talking 1-2 hrs, however I do think it was his first time doing the job. . > > Ray M. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" > To: "commander-list" > Subject: Commander-List: > > >> --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" >> >> >> DOES ANYONE HAVE A EASY ACCESS AND WAY TO CHANGE A GARLOCK SEAL AND >> GASKET > >> AND THE HYDROLIC PUMP ON OFF THE ACCESSORY CASE ON AN IO720 EQUIPED >> 680FP? > >> THANK YOU FOR ANY HELP. MASON N2001M >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:54 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 17:33:18 Pacific Standard Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > Aren't the words "...in air commerce" in (a) crucial here? Yes, Nico, but they arrive after the crucial words, "in any aircraft." For about a minute and a half I thought I found The Way Out, but realized that the air commerce reference was to US carriers outside the US (and not subject to US Territory law). As usual, pilots are responsible for knowing all the FARs and any other law that governs aircraft -- such as NTSB rules, HAZMAT rules, FCC rules, etc. Of course, we do this, accepting salaries at a fraction of even the worst of attorneys. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:56 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 24-Jan-05 16:26:00 Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > I wonder, what's the best way out for all concerned? > To answer your question on logic and ethics, I'll defer to Mr. Hamilton's post from Down Under to illustrate how a government agency can -- and will -- act in the face of the obvious. And since I'm the Devil's Advocate, I'll forecast that the FAA will drop it, or at worst, give Jeremy a letter of Notice of Violation and then not act on it. That covers them, and keeps a bit of sanity running. But do not back down on pulling in every Local, State and Federal official you can. Act as if the FAA is coming and then if nothing happens, you'll have lots of letters of commendation to frame and hang on the walls. Wing Commander Gordon Devil's Advocate Purveyor of Useless Advice Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:17 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Is that what DA-PUA stands for. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 24-Jan-05 16:26:00 Pacific Standard Time, > kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > > > I wonder, what's the best way out for all concerned? > > > > To answer your question on logic and ethics, I'll defer to Mr. Hamilton's > post from Down Under to illustrate how a government agency can -- and will -- act > in the face of the obvious. > > And since I'm the Devil's Advocate, I'll forecast that the FAA will drop it, > or at worst, give Jeremy a letter of Notice of Violation and then not act on > it. That covers them, and keeps a bit of sanity running. > > But do not back down on pulling in every Local, State and Federal official > you can. Act as if the FAA is coming and then if nothing happens, you'll have > lots of letters of commendation to frame and hang on the walls. > > Wing Commander Gordon > Devil's Advocate > Purveyor of Useless Advice > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:34 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/24/2005 2:01:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, kerry@kvelectric.com writes: Jeremy is my oldest son so I may be a bit biased. He is a hero in my book. jb ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:17 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/24/2005 6:19:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, CloudCraft@aol.com writes: And since I'm the Devil's Advocate, I'll forecast that the FAA will drop it Well, one would hope. I doubt it. The rules the govern our flying have not changed in a wholesale way in the past 2 decades. The people who enforce them have, however changed dramatically. In years past, an FAA "person" would likely be retired from one of maybe even two careers (Millitay/airlaine) and had a wealth of real world knowledge to draw from. Not so today. The young men and women have little of no experience. While the old school thought of themselves as furthering safety and making aviation a better place. The new crowd are simply "sky cops." Media attention will likly make little or no difference. Here is their speech in front of "news 12" "Understand that we also feel a wonderful dead was done, however, the FAA rules are writen to insure safety for everyone. Those on the ground depend on us to make certain the air traffic they see above them wont blow up. We feel strongly that this case needs to be fully prosecuted to insure Bla Bla Bla......." They will through in a sentence or two about 911 and there you have it. Pressure for a higher authority MAY help.(did'nt help the Hoov) Your son needs to wear his violation as a badge of honor. The record only are kept for 5 years. Unless he flies for a living, who cares!! The few, The proud, the Busted!! jb ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:57 PM PST US From: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Action --> Commander-List message posted by: "Brock Lorber - VegasFC" Kerry: It took me all day to realize who this discussion was about. I was lucky enough to ferry Jeremy and his new (to him) Cirrus from Scottsdale to SGU a couple of weeks ago and hate to see him in this position. My take is that everything Jeremy did is worthy of the Presidential medal and the Congressional gold medal (please send all the relevent details and I'll nominate him). There will be no debate about the good deeds he did as long as it was all on his dime. However, the FAA has him on one salient point: the benefit rides require pre-notification. The conversation about public service is irrelevant. There is no emergency situation that would require "scenic rides" and no governmental organization can officially sponsor such flights. If a donation was required to take the flight, he's in violation of the FARs. The sick part of the whole situation is with a single phone call to me, I would have done the benefit flights, on my dime, in his Cirrus (or our Cirrus or our Commander) and been perfectly legal to do so. Jeremy doesn't know me (or other Las Vegas companies I work for) well enough to know that he could have saved alot of money and headaches by using me as a resource, but the unasked question will be his downfall in this situation. Having said that, I agree with Keith that the FAA will offer a letter of violation and the situation will be done with. His biggest worry should not be the FAA, but the insurance company. No insurer will want to get near a pilot that has an FAA violation on his record! For that reason, you should immediately pull every string you have to to avoid a notice of violation. Don't let this get to press or even a formal investigation. The "best way out for all concerned" is for this investigation to get lost in the shuffle! Please let me know if I can help. Brock Lorber N400CH - 680FL(P) N327RH, N578PS, N6053U, N916CD - Cirrus SR22 > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Kerry Johnson" > > Well you Devil you, I think I see what you mean. The FAA position would > be that just because peoples lives and property on the ground were in > danger, that doesn't constitute an "In Flight Emergency". > > To which we would say, that flight contrary to FARs was the only way to > avert the disaster. And if that scenario doesn't constitute an > emergency, what does it constitute as far as the airman present at the > "occasion" is concerned? What does the FAA expect the said airman to do? > Is he supposed to sit on his thumbs and quote FARs as the people drown > and their homes are washed away? > > This could be a very sticky wicket for the FAA. If they do nothing, they > could be in trouble for not following up on a well documented violation. > If they punish Jeremy for what he did, all hell will probably break > loose on them. I know the media is just waiting and hoping for a story, > the County Sheriff, the local Mayors, the Search & Rescue and people in > general that know about this are all fired up and spoiling for a fight. > I wonder, what's the best way out for all concerned? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > CloudCraft@aol.com > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Action > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 24-Jan-05 15:16:48 Pacific Standard Time, > kerry@kvelectric.com writes: > > > There is no written contract between him and the Government agencies > > etc. So I suppose that means that the Public Service exemption would > > not apply? > > > > I'll play Devil's Advocate so you can brain storm around the FAA's > mentality. > > My take is that with no public service agreement equal to or longer than > 90 days, he can't claim public service so that defense is out. > > FAR 91.3 > ... "(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot > incommand may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent > requiredto meet that emergency." > > A disaster is not an in-flight emergency. > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > > > > > >