---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/15/05: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:23 AM - Re: Finished restoration () 2. 04:40 AM - Sizzor Arm for 560 (Daniel Stewart) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: Simmonds Fuel Pumps (Moe) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Simmonds Fuel Pumps (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 5. 07:32 AM - Lite weight starters (Moe) 6. 07:42 AM - Re: Finished restoration (Moe) 7. 08:14 AM - Re: Lite weight starters (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 8. 08:16 AM - Re: Finished restoration (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 9. 08:26 AM - Re: Simmonds Fuel Pumps (Moe) 10. 09:11 AM - Re: Simmonds Fuel Pumps (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 11. 09:18 AM - Who is to blame? (nico css) 12. 09:53 AM - Re: Simmonds Fuel Pumps (Ricardo Otaola) 13. 09:56 AM - Re: Finished restoration (nico css) 14. 09:58 AM - Re: Simmonds Fuel Pumps (Moe) 15. 12:13 PM - Re: Who is to blame? (RRamm52@cs.com) 16. 12:30 PM - Re: Who is to blame? (John Vormbaum) 17. 12:43 PM - Re: Who is to blame? (John Vormbaum) 18. 12:47 PM - Re: Who is to blame? (RRamm52@cs.com) 19. 02:04 PM - Re: Who is to blame? (nico css) 20. 04:22 PM - Re: Who is to blame? (John Vormbaum) 21. 05:06 PM - Re: Who is to blame? (nico css) 22. 08:50 PM - 560 with the 540 (Ben Baltrusaitis) 23. 09:34 PM - Re: 560 with the 540 (CloudCraft@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:42 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration --> Commander-List message posted by: Great job Chris...well done! Cheers from Oz Russell ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:03:37 -0500 >From: Chris Schuermann >Subject: Commander-List: Finished restoration >To: commander-list@matronics.com > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > >Howdy all. This is "off topic" but thought I'd share with my Commander >friends anyway. >I've finally finished the total restoration of my twin Piper. It's been >quite the project but I'm very pleased with the results. I know an >Aztec isn't a Commander but it's a darn fine combination of >functionality in an affordable package. I've put a series of pictures >up on a web page in case anyone wants to see the fruits of two years of >hard labor. http://members.cox.net/cschuerm/ >With all the upgrades and improvments, I'm getting right at 170kts true >at 5000ft. Pretty respectable for an old blunt fat-wing piper product. > >cheers >Chris Schuermann > > >_- ========================================= =================== >_- ========================================= =================== > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:29 AM PST US From: Daniel Stewart Subject: Commander-List: Sizzor Arm for 560 --> Commander-List message posted by: Daniel Stewart Hey, does anyone know where I can get a replacement lower sizzor arm for my nose strut on my 560? Thanks, Dan --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:10 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" JB When there a hot start is going to be made it seems that the best technique is to go to idle shut off, then mags off. To start hot after shutting down this way do not boost or prime, but have your fingers on the boost pump and primer switches, and be darn quick, in cast the engine starts to stumble after firing. This generally works very well (about three prop blades of rotation until if starts), although, a couple of weeks ago in Colorado with a density altitude of 10,700 feet starting the right engine took a long time, as I had to flood it and start all over again. Perhaps the problem was pump related, as the pump started leaking badly around the lean cut off shaft on the same engine shortly thereafter. One thing I do not understand: When the engine is shut off by using the idle cut off- which starves the engine- how come it starts back up (hot) without prime or boost? Regards, Moe N680RR 680F(p) ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > In a message dated 7/14/2005 7:43:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > CloudCraft@aol.com writes: > > I like your IGSO-540 shut down technique. That's the best way for all > systems, that I've heard. > > > How does the mad shut down technique work on the "hot start"? jb > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:38 AM PST US From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" mm, how many hands do you have? mason ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > JB When there a hot start is going to be made it seems that the best technique is to go to idle shut off, then mags off. To start hot after shutting down this way do not boost or prime, but have your fingers on the boost pump and primer switches, and be darn quick, in cast the engine starts to stumble after firing. This generally works very well (about three prop blades of rotation until if starts), although, a couple of weeks ago in Colorado with a density altitude of 10,700 feet starting the right engine took a long time, as I had to flood it and start all over again. Perhaps the problem was pump related, as the pump started leaking badly around the lean cut off shaft on the same engine shortly thereafter. One thing I do not understand: When the engine is shut off by using the idle cut off- which starves the engine- how come it starts back up (hot) without prime or boost? Regards, Moe N680RR 680F(p) ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > In a message dated 7/14/2005 7:43:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > CloudCraft@aol.com writes: > > I like your IGSO-540 shut down technique. That's the best way for all > systems, that I've heard. > > > How does the mad shut down technique work on the "hot start"? jb > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:24 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Commander-List: Lite weight starters --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Fellow Commander Folks, Has anyone researched the availability and usefulness of the light weight starters for geared engines (IGSO540B1A) ? Regards, Moe N680RR 680F(p) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:45 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Chris, Thanks for the info. Some time ago, I got my conventional twin rating in an Apache with the 0320 engines and the Geronimo tail, at the Salton Sea (close to Palm Springs). With temperatures at over 100 it taught me a lot about single engine handling. Moe N680RR 680F(p) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > > Moe wrote: > > Obviously, I don't know much about Apache/ Aztecs, but I thought that they > > had Lycoming 0 320 engines like my 172 had. > > Moe, > The PA-23 line is really two different airplanes. The Apache is a > slightly smaller airplane, has an elevator, and uses 150/160hp engines. > The Aztec (also a PA-23 oddly) is a bit larger, has a stabilator, and > uses 250/260hp 540 lycoming engines. My bird is a bit of an oddity. In > the early/mid 60's, Piper had stopped building Apaches and transitioned > to the Aztec. As near as I can tell, they decided to leverage the brand > loyalty of the Apache name and came out with the "Apache 235". It was > simply an Aztec with low compression cylinders. (and yes, early Aztecs > had the short round nose). > Some Apaches have had the "Geronimo conversion" done which makes them > difficult to tell from an Aztec if you don't know them well. They put a > longer nose, squared up the tail feathers, and added 180hp O-360 > engines. Some were even turbocharged. Pretty neat package. > During my engine overhauls, we upgraded to new high-compression > cylinder/piston assemblies, cams, etc which basicly creates a carburated > equivilant of a 290hp IO-540 (but with straight stacks and augementor > tubes :-) > > chris > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:08 AM PST US From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lite weight starters --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" mm, have not for geared engines but I did put skytech on 2001m io-720 and it is all difference in the world. almost no need to prime. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:20 AM Subject: Commander-List: Lite weight starters --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > Fellow Commander Folks, Has anyone researched the availability and usefulness of the light weight starters for geared engines (IGSO540B1A) ? Regards, Moe N680RR 680F(p) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:13 AM PST US From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" cs, I also got my twin rating 17 yrs ago in a geronimo convereted air craft, had door roped closed. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > Chris, Thanks for the info. Some time ago, I got my conventional twin rating in an Apache with the 0320 engines and the Geronimo tail, at the Salton Sea (close to Palm Springs). With temperatures at over 100 it taught me a lot about single engine handling. Moe N680RR 680F(p) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > > > Moe wrote: > > Obviously, I don't know much about Apache/ Aztecs, but I thought that they > > had Lycoming 0 320 engines like my 172 had. > > Moe, > The PA-23 line is really two different airplanes. The Apache is a > slightly smaller airplane, has an elevator, and uses 150/160hp engines. > The Aztec (also a PA-23 oddly) is a bit larger, has a stabilator, and > uses 250/260hp 540 lycoming engines. My bird is a bit of an oddity. In > the early/mid 60's, Piper had stopped building Apaches and transitioned > to the Aztec. As near as I can tell, they decided to leverage the brand > loyalty of the Apache name and came out with the "Apache 235". It was > simply an Aztec with low compression cylinders. (and yes, early Aztecs > had the short round nose). > Some Apaches have had the "Geronimo conversion" done which makes them > difficult to tell from an Aztec if you don't know them well. They put a > longer nose, squared up the tail feathers, and added 180hp O-360 > engines. Some were even turbocharged. Pretty neat package. > During my engine overhauls, we upgraded to new high-compression > cylinder/piston assemblies, cams, etc which basicly creates a carburated > equivilant of a 290hp IO-540 (but with straight stacks and augementor > tubes :-) > > chris > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:01 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" The right hand is for the mag/ starter switch and the left hand is for the boost and primer switches (both at the same time). Moe ----- Original Message ----- From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps > --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" > > mm, how many hands do you have? mason > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Moe > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:33 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > > JB > > When there a hot start is going to be made it seems that the best technique > is to go to idle shut off, then mags off. To start hot after shutting down > this way do not boost or prime, but have your fingers on the boost pump and > primer switches, and be darn quick, in cast the engine starts to stumble > after firing. This generally works very well (about three prop blades of > rotation until if starts), although, a couple of weeks ago in Colorado with > a density altitude of 10,700 feet starting the right engine took a long > time, as I had to flood it and start all over again. Perhaps the problem was > pump related, as the pump started leaking badly around the lean cut off > shaft on the same engine shortly thereafter. > > One thing I do not understand: When the engine is shut off by using the idle > cut off- which starves the engine- how come it starts back up (hot) without > prime or boost? > > Regards, > > Moe > N680RR > 680F(p) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 7/14/2005 7:43:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > CloudCraft@aol.com writes: > > > > I like your IGSO-540 shut down technique. That's the best way for all > > systems, that I've heard. > > > > > > How does the mad shut down technique work on the "hot start"? jb > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:06 AM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 7/15/2005 6:45:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, moe@rosspistons.com writes: - how come it starts back up (hot) without prime or boost? There is a bit of fuel trapped under pressure just behind the idle fuel delivery "jet". When you push the mixture forward it releases this small amount of fuel. That is why it try's to die after restart. The boost pump fills the gap. jb ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:54 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Who is to blame for this? Joseph Kahn wrote this in the NY Times today: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/asia/15china.html?ex1122091200&enf9c9fef13f55ca56&ei5070&emceta1 Read what David Hackworth wrote about this in May 2000: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3921b33667c2.htm And Charles Smith in Jan 2003: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml I've been beating the drum about the enemy from within for years. They are citizens, yet they are as dangerous as any foreign enemy this country has ever had. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:21 AM PST US From: "Ricardo Otaola" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ricardo Otaola" Hi Guys: I don do any of that staff really. When HOT, I just start the engine with idle cut off, moving it slow up to rich. When it kick and tries to start, that when I push forward to almost full rich. It take 3-5 seconds to get the engine going. If you let go too soon of the fuel, it will lock up, and then just breathe, full rich, boost pump. After flooding it, cut off idle, and try start the engine, CUT OFF, until it gets going a little bit, and then move forward towards rich. You all have to keep in mind, that too much fuel clogs it, too little starves it. That is why it starts LEAN. I hope that helps. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 7/15/2005 6:45:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, moe@rosspistons.com writes: - how come it starts back up (hot) without prime or boost? There is a bit of fuel trapped under pressure just behind the idle fuel delivery "jet". When you push the mixture forward it releases this small amount of fuel. That is why it try's to die after restart. The boost pump fills the gap. jb ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:23 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" It seems quite a number of pilots had their first Multi Engine experience in an Apache. I did too. A week after I got my ME ticket, a student, while the right engine was set at a power setting simulating a feathered engine (because at 4100' airport altitude, on a hot day nobody actually feathers a 150hp Apache's engine) accidentally pulled the prop lever all the way into feather on the LEFT engine, killing it outright. Without hydraulics, entering left base, the options for the instructor, Keith Smith, quickly ran out. Both student (whose name I forgot) and Keith survived with serious injuries. (Keith sufficiently recovered to regain his ATP and CFI licenses and currently has the Enstrom Helicopter dealership at Wonderboom airport.) The Apache's flight abruptly ended in a neighboring resident's backyard where they had a BBQ at the time. Talking about crashing a party! I was on the scene soon afterwards and took these photographs. You can see the left engine feathered in the second picture. So, that was the take-off without the accompanying, preferred landing for ZS-STR. Image 1: http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Accidents/Apache%20Crash/zs-str_img1.jpg Image 2: http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Accidents/Apache%20Crash/zs-str_img2.jpg Oh, and by the way, here is a picture of my 500 about 25 years ago. You can see the 680FP, ZS-SSN, in which I have done a bit of time, in the background. According to the South African aircraft registry, the last time I looked, both planes are still alive. Next time I go down south, I will see if I can visit them both and bring back a report to all. http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Aero%20Commanders/ZS-CLZ/zs-clz.jpg Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration > --> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" > > cs, I also got my twin rating 17 yrs ago in a geronimo convereted air craft, had door roped closed. mason > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Moe > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > > Chris, > > Thanks for the info. Some time ago, I got my conventional twin rating in an > Apache with the 0320 engines and the Geronimo tail, at the Salton Sea (close > to Palm Springs). With temperatures at over 100 it taught me a lot about > single engine handling. > > Moe > N680RR > 680F(p) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Schuermann" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Finished restoration > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > > > > > > Moe wrote: > > > Obviously, I don't know much about Apache/ Aztecs, but I thought that > they > > > had Lycoming 0 320 engines like my 172 had. > > > > Moe, > > The PA-23 line is really two different airplanes. The Apache is a > > slightly smaller airplane, has an elevator, and uses 150/160hp engines. > > The Aztec (also a PA-23 oddly) is a bit larger, has a stabilator, and > > uses 250/260hp 540 lycoming engines. My bird is a bit of an oddity. In > > the early/mid 60's, Piper had stopped building Apaches and transitioned > > to the Aztec. As near as I can tell, they decided to leverage the brand > > loyalty of the Apache name and came out with the "Apache 235". It was > > simply an Aztec with low compression cylinders. (and yes, early Aztecs > > had the short round nose). > > Some Apaches have had the "Geronimo conversion" done which makes them > > difficult to tell from an Aztec if you don't know them well. They put a > > longer nose, squared up the tail feathers, and added 180hp O-360 > > engines. Some were even turbocharged. Pretty neat package. > > During my engine overhauls, we upgraded to new high-compression > > cylinder/piston assemblies, cams, etc which basicly creates a carburated > > equivilant of a 290hp IO-540 (but with straight stacks and augementor > > tubes :-) > > > > chris > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:32 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Thanks JB, As soon as a few minutes becomes available, I will dig out the schematic of the 580 fuel pump and figgure this out. Moe ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Pumps > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > In a message dated 7/15/2005 6:45:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > moe@rosspistons.com writes: > > - how come it starts back up (hot) without > prime or boost? > > > There is a bit of fuel trapped under pressure just behind the idle fuel > delivery "jet". When you push the mixture forward it releases this small amount > of fuel. That is why it try's to die after restart. The boost pump fills > the gap. jb > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:43 PM PST US From: RRamm52@cs.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com Well, Nico, since this puts our Commanders in danger, its sorta not too far off topic.... Hackworth really hit the nail on the head. I fought the chinese in Nam and know what they are capable of... I also fought so that the people in this country could grow so soft that they have forgotten that the whole world is out to get us... and get us, they will. The time to wake up may be too late. I pray not, for our kids sake. They are the ones we have let down so badly, by having cowards and and the morally dead for past leaders. Flew the Commander to Monroe with Steve yesterday! Had a blast! Cheers to all of ya. Rob In a message dated 7/15/2005 11:20:47 AM Central Standard Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > > > Who is to blame for this? > > Joseph Kahn wrote this in the NY Times today: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/asia/15china.html?ex112209120 > 0&enf9c9fef13f55ca56&ei5070&emceta1 > > Read what David Hackworth wrote about this in May 2000: > http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3921b33667c2.htm > > And Charles Smith in Jan 2003: > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml > > I've been beating the drum about the enemy from within for years. They are > citizens, yet they are as dangerous as any foreign enemy this country has ever > had. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:51 PM PST US From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" Rob, Nico, THANK YOU for your service to our country. Just my $0.02 worth, but this country is a lot more difficult to topple than one would first think. Despite leaders who make bad choices, it's the average citizen that makes this country great. Some of us exist every day in "condition yellow", and if you recall WWII, once you band this country together and give us a common enemy to fight, we're dang near unstoppable. I saw this on a small scale, as I was at 2nd Ave. & 9th St. in NYC on the morning of 9/11. I saw first hand how businessmen teamed with gang members to help people, and how disparate groups of random New Yorkers banded together. Those who couldn't find their relatives in the WTC quickly grew crowds to hold hands & pat backs. The scene, although surreal and scary, was far from panic; it was nearly immediate organization for the common good, regardless of personal views. It was the only time in my 37 years that I've seen ALL New Yorkers get along. We left the East Village moments after the 2nd airplane hit, and 12 blocks later, when we passed the first hospital, the line to donate blood was already 4 HOURS LONG. They were turning people away, asking them to come back & donate later in the day, or the next day. It IS a tragedy that it sometimes takes an event like Pearl Harbor, 9/11, etc. to unite us. But once that happens, all the ideals that make America great start to show in spades. I too am upset at the lackadaisical view of National Security, but I also don't underestimate the capability of the American people. /John ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > Well, Nico, since this puts our Commanders in danger, its sorta not too far > off topic.... > Hackworth really hit the nail on the head. I fought the chinese in Nam and > know what they are capable of... > I also fought so that the people in this country could grow so soft that they > have forgotten that the whole world is out to get us... and get us, they > will. The time to wake up may be too late. I pray not, for our kids sake. They are > the ones we have let down so badly, by having cowards and and the morally > dead for past leaders. > Flew the Commander to Monroe with Steve yesterday! Had a blast! Cheers to all > of ya. > Rob > > In a message dated 7/15/2005 11:20:47 AM Central Standard Time, > nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > > > > > > Who is to blame for this? > > > > Joseph Kahn wrote this in the NY Times today: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/asia/15china.html?ex112209120 > > 0&enf9c9fef13f55ca56&ei5070&emceta1 > > > > Read what David Hackworth wrote about this in May 2000: > > http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3921b33667c2.htm > > > > And Charles Smith in Jan 2003: > > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml > > > > I've been beating the drum about the enemy from within for years. They are > > citizens, yet they are as dangerous as any foreign enemy this country has ever > > had. > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:07 PM PST US From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" FYI, Thank you ROB. I know you're from SA, Nico ;-). /J ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" > > Rob, Nico, > > THANK YOU for your service to our country. > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:10 PM PST US From: RRamm52@cs.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com Hi, John, Thanks for the kind words. My sister is a New Yorker, Roxie Munro, artist, does "New Yorker" magazine covers and such... I actually was very proud of the way all of you responded to the attack on your city. My sister also refused to run or hide. I love to hear from people like you and her just when I think my fight and so many like me was for naught. Many of us still do not lead "normal" lives...nor will New York ever be normal again... Thanks, Rob Munro AC500 john@vormbaum.com writes: > > Rob, Nico, > > THANK YOU for your service to our country. > > Just my $0.02 worth, but this country is a lot more difficult to topple than > one would first think. Despite leaders who make bad choices, it's the > average citizen that makes this country great. Some of us exist every day in > "condition yellow", and if you recall WWII, once you band this country > together and give us a common enemy to fight, we're dang near unstoppable. > > I saw this on a small scale, as I was at 2nd Ave. &9th St. in NYC on the > morning of 9/11. I saw first hand how businessmen teamed with gang members > to help people, and how disparate groups of random New Yorkers banded > together. Those who couldn't find their relatives in the WTC quickly grew > crowds to hold hands &pat backs. The scene, although surreal and scary, was > far from panic; it was nearly immediate organization for the common good, > regardless of personal views. It was the only time in my 37 years that I've > seen ALL New Yorkers get along. > > We left the East Village moments after the 2nd airplane hit, and 12 blocks > later, when we passed the first hospital, the line to donate blood was > already 4 HOURS LONG. They were turning people away, asking them to come > back &donate later in the day, or the next day. > > It IS a tragedy that it sometimes takes an event like Pearl Harbor, 9/11, > etc. to unite us. But once that happens, all the ideals that make America > great start to show in spades. I too am upset at the lackadaisical view of > National Security, but I also don't underestimate the capability of the > American people. > > /John ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:41 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" John, I don't doubt for a moment that what you are saying is the truth. It is, in spite of that I believe, necessary to sound the bugle when the cost to reverse the assault on our core values will be counted in innocent lives. Let's look at an aviation related event, which I believe is analogous. At the end of April this year, returning from a trip to Africa, we took off from Chicago bound for LAX and flew close to Meigs Field. Although at the altitude we were flying, I couldn't clearly see the damage that mayor Daley has caused to the field in March '03 but the events of his sneak attack on the rights and privileges of the people immediately sprung to mind. I must admit, I don't have recent information on what has happened to the mayor's vigilante destruction of public property for personal (or political) gain, but it might be a safe bet to assume that it has been swept under the rug and the airfield is lost. I might be wrong, but nothing has crossed the wires on this. How is this analogous? The same motives caused Clinton to sell secrets to the Chinese. What about the lives that it will cost to stop that blunder? How many Americans have received nothing but a solemn ceremony and a folded flag because the likes of Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Howard Dean, Al Gore, and Ted Kennedy have exercised their right to free speech? A right they should have, there is no agitation against that, but how they exercised it should be a concern for the people, you and I, because it exposes their true intentions, loyalties, and character. Through that we gauge that they are enemies of the people of this country if not, then, of the Constitution per se. The Constitution ought not indict them - we ought to and remove them from office and run them out of Dodge. It is busy happening already and that is cause for jubilation. The majority of the people's core values set for them boundaries beyond which they will not go, even if it meant calamity or death. They watch what they say because of a value they put on their character and what others are caused to hear and believe by their free speech rights, but these folks have so-called core values that are floating, having nothing beyond which they will not go. That's the bugle I sound, John. Not the end of this great nation, not at all. Just the cost to fix what we might have been able to prevent before we have to ask good folks to get themselves killed to fix it. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" > > Rob, Nico, > > THANK YOU for your service to our country. > > Just my $0.02 worth, but this country is a lot more difficult to topple than > one would first think. Despite leaders who make bad choices, it's the > average citizen that makes this country great. Some of us exist every day in > "condition yellow", and if you recall WWII, once you band this country > together and give us a common enemy to fight, we're dang near unstoppable. > > I saw this on a small scale, as I was at 2nd Ave. & 9th St. in NYC on the > morning of 9/11. I saw first hand how businessmen teamed with gang members > to help people, and how disparate groups of random New Yorkers banded > together. Those who couldn't find their relatives in the WTC quickly grew > crowds to hold hands & pat backs. The scene, although surreal and scary, was > far from panic; it was nearly immediate organization for the common good, > regardless of personal views. It was the only time in my 37 years that I've > seen ALL New Yorkers get along. > > We left the East Village moments after the 2nd airplane hit, and 12 blocks > later, when we passed the first hospital, the line to donate blood was > already 4 HOURS LONG. They were turning people away, asking them to come > back & donate later in the day, or the next day. > > It IS a tragedy that it sometimes takes an event like Pearl Harbor, 9/11, > etc. to unite us. But once that happens, all the ideals that make America > great start to show in spades. I too am upset at the lackadaisical view of > National Security, but I also don't underestimate the capability of the > American people. > > /John > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > > > Well, Nico, since this puts our Commanders in danger, its sorta not too > far > > off topic.... > > Hackworth really hit the nail on the head. I fought the chinese in Nam and > > know what they are capable of... > > I also fought so that the people in this country could grow so soft that > they > > have forgotten that the whole world is out to get us... and get us, they > > will. The time to wake up may be too late. I pray not, for our kids sake. > They are > > the ones we have let down so badly, by having cowards and and the morally > > dead for past leaders. > > Flew the Commander to Monroe with Steve yesterday! Had a blast! Cheers to > all > > of ya. > > Rob > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2005 11:20:47 AM Central Standard Time, > > nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > > > > > > > > > Who is to blame for this? > > > > > > Joseph Kahn wrote this in the NY Times today: > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/asia/15china.html?ex112209120 > > > 0&enf9c9fef13f55ca56&ei5070&emceta1 > > > > > > Read what David Hackworth wrote about this in May 2000: > > > http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3921b33667c2.htm > > > > > > And Charles Smith in Jan 2003: > > > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml > > > > > > I've been beating the drum about the enemy from within for years. They > are > > > citizens, yet they are as dangerous as any foreign enemy this country > has ever > > > had. > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:36 PM PST US From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" Nico, I hear what you see and agree with almost all of it. The loss of Meigs field is indeed a tragedy, and I see how that can be compared to the general public feeling in relation to other incidents & practices. That being said, the court of public opinion is like a pendulum. It will continue to swing from the far left, to moderate, to far right and back again. We lost Meigs, but in TX they've just opened a new airport. AOPA has also successfully saved other fields at least in the short term. As aviation continues to grow & become safer, and perhaps when the VLJ's really start hitting the market, I think the positive impact on local business near airports will be felt....and I wouldn't be surprised if new fields spring up. Either way, history shows that public opinion (and the votes that accompany it) will swing again. I myself am at an airport (KPAO) where I think our time is finite; it's near natural wetlands, close to residential areas & parks, and feeling the pressure of the population & environmentalists. It won't be long before we'll have to take strong action to defend the airport from redevelopment. As far as general political practice...only time will tell. People don't stand indefinitely for the loss of American lives under dubious justification. Sadly we never learn from the past. You'd think after Vietnam, policymakers would recognize that you can't export democracy at the point of a gun. Unfortunately this will probably continue for some time, at least until we're no longer an oil dependent economy. I don't know the right answer or the right action to take, so I'll just continue to muddle along trying to be the best person I can be, and contribute to the well-being of my family, friends & neighbors... /J ----- Original Message ----- From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" > > John, > I don't doubt for a moment that what you are saying is the truth. It is, in > spite of that I believe, necessary to sound the bugle when the cost to > reverse the assault on our core values will be counted in innocent lives. > > Let's look at an aviation related event, which I believe is analogous. At > the end of April this year, returning from a trip to Africa, we took off > from Chicago bound for LAX and flew close to Meigs Field. Although at the > altitude we were flying, I couldn't clearly see the damage that mayor Daley > has caused to the field in March '03 but the events of his sneak attack on > the rights and privileges of the people immediately sprung to mind. I must > admit, I don't have recent information on what has happened to the mayor's > vigilante destruction of public property for personal (or political) gain, > but it might be a safe bet to assume that it has been swept under the rug > and the airfield is lost. I might be wrong, but nothing has crossed the > wires on this. > > How is this analogous? The same motives caused Clinton to sell secrets to > the Chinese. What about the lives that it will cost to stop that blunder? > How many Americans have received nothing but a solemn ceremony and a folded > flag because the likes of Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Howard Dean, Al Gore, > and Ted Kennedy have exercised their right to free speech? A right they > should have, there is no agitation against that, but how they exercised it > should be a concern for the people, you and I, because it exposes their true > intentions, loyalties, and character. Through that we gauge that they are > enemies of the people of this country if not, then, of the Constitution per > se. The Constitution ought not indict them - we ought to and remove them > from office and run them out of Dodge. It is busy happening already and that > is cause for jubilation. > > The majority of the people's core values set for them boundaries beyond > which they will not go, even if it meant calamity or death. They watch what > they say because of a value they put on their character and what others are > caused to hear and believe by their free speech rights, but these folks have > so-called core values that are floating, having nothing beyond which they > will not go. > > That's the bugle I sound, John. Not the end of this great nation, not at > all. Just the cost to fix what we might have been able to prevent before we > have to ask good folks to get themselves killed to fix it. > > Nico > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Vormbaum" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" > > > > Rob, Nico, > > > > THANK YOU for your service to our country. > > > > Just my $0.02 worth, but this country is a lot more difficult to topple > than > > one would first think. Despite leaders who make bad choices, it's the > > average citizen that makes this country great. Some of us exist every day > in > > "condition yellow", and if you recall WWII, once you band this country > > together and give us a common enemy to fight, we're dang near unstoppable. > > > > I saw this on a small scale, as I was at 2nd Ave. & 9th St. in NYC on the > > morning of 9/11. I saw first hand how businessmen teamed with gang members > > to help people, and how disparate groups of random New Yorkers banded > > together. Those who couldn't find their relatives in the WTC quickly grew > > crowds to hold hands & pat backs. The scene, although surreal and scary, > was > > far from panic; it was nearly immediate organization for the common good, > > regardless of personal views. It was the only time in my 37 years that > I've > > seen ALL New Yorkers get along. > > > > We left the East Village moments after the 2nd airplane hit, and 12 blocks > > later, when we passed the first hospital, the line to donate blood was > > already 4 HOURS LONG. They were turning people away, asking them to come > > back & donate later in the day, or the next day. > > > > It IS a tragedy that it sometimes takes an event like Pearl Harbor, 9/11, > > etc. to unite us. But once that happens, all the ideals that make America > > great start to show in spades. I too am upset at the lackadaisical view of > > National Security, but I also don't underestimate the capability of the > > American people. > > > > /John > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > > > > > Well, Nico, since this puts our Commanders in danger, its sorta not too > > far > > > off topic.... > > > Hackworth really hit the nail on the head. I fought the chinese in Nam > and > > > know what they are capable of... > > > I also fought so that the people in this country could grow so soft that > > they > > > have forgotten that the whole world is out to get us... and get us, they > > > will. The time to wake up may be too late. I pray not, for our kids > sake. > > They are > > > the ones we have let down so badly, by having cowards and and the > morally > > > dead for past leaders. > > > Flew the Commander to Monroe with Steve yesterday! Had a blast! Cheers > to > > all > > > of ya. > > > Rob > > > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2005 11:20:47 AM Central Standard Time, > > > nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > Who is to blame for this? > > > > > > > > Joseph Kahn wrote this in the NY Times today: > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/asia/15china.html?ex112209120 > > > > 0&enf9c9fef13f55ca56&ei5070&emceta1 > > > > > > > > Read what David Hackworth wrote about this in May 2000: > > > > http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3921b33667c2.htm > > > > > > > > And Charles Smith in Jan 2003: > > > > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml > > > > > > > > I've been beating the drum about the enemy from within for years. They > > are > > > > citizens, yet they are as dangerous as any foreign enemy this country > > has ever > > > > had. > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:32 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" John, I agree. Wise words. Thank you, Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" > > Nico, > > I hear what you see and agree with almost all of it. The loss of Meigs field > is indeed a tragedy, and I see how that can be compared to the general > public feeling in relation to other incidents & practices. > > That being said, the court of public opinion is like a pendulum. It will > continue to swing from the far left, to moderate, to far right and back > again. We lost Meigs, but in TX they've just opened a new airport. AOPA has > also successfully saved other fields at least in the short term. As aviation > continues to grow & become safer, and perhaps when the VLJ's really start > hitting the market, I think the positive impact on local business near > airports will be felt....and I wouldn't be surprised if new fields spring > up. Either way, history shows that public opinion (and the votes that > accompany it) will swing again. > > I myself am at an airport (KPAO) where I think our time is finite; it's near > natural wetlands, close to residential areas & parks, and feeling the > pressure of the population & environmentalists. It won't be long before > we'll have to take strong action to defend the airport from redevelopment. > > As far as general political practice...only time will tell. People don't > stand indefinitely for the loss of American lives under dubious > justification. Sadly we never learn from the past. You'd think after > Vietnam, policymakers would recognize that you can't export democracy at the > point of a gun. Unfortunately this will probably continue for some time, at > least until we're no longer an oil dependent economy. I don't know the right > answer or the right action to take, so I'll just continue to muddle along > trying to be the best person I can be, and contribute to the well-being of > my family, friends & neighbors... > > /J > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nico css" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" > > > > > John, > > I don't doubt for a moment that what you are saying is the truth. It is, > in > > spite of that I believe, necessary to sound the bugle when the cost to > > reverse the assault on our core values will be counted in innocent lives. > > > > Let's look at an aviation related event, which I believe is analogous. At > > the end of April this year, returning from a trip to Africa, we took off > > from Chicago bound for LAX and flew close to Meigs Field. Although at the > > altitude we were flying, I couldn't clearly see the damage that mayor > Daley > > has caused to the field in March '03 but the events of his sneak attack on > > the rights and privileges of the people immediately sprung to mind. I must > > admit, I don't have recent information on what has happened to the mayor's > > vigilante destruction of public property for personal (or political) gain, > > but it might be a safe bet to assume that it has been swept under the rug > > and the airfield is lost. I might be wrong, but nothing has crossed the > > wires on this. > > > > How is this analogous? The same motives caused Clinton to sell secrets to > > the Chinese. What about the lives that it will cost to stop that blunder? > > How many Americans have received nothing but a solemn ceremony and a > folded > > flag because the likes of Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Howard Dean, Al Gore, > > and Ted Kennedy have exercised their right to free speech? A right they > > should have, there is no agitation against that, but how they exercised it > > should be a concern for the people, you and I, because it exposes their > true > > intentions, loyalties, and character. Through that we gauge that they are > > enemies of the people of this country if not, then, of the Constitution > per > > se. The Constitution ought not indict them - we ought to and remove them > > from office and run them out of Dodge. It is busy happening already and > that > > is cause for jubilation. > > > > The majority of the people's core values set for them boundaries beyond > > which they will not go, even if it meant calamity or death. They watch > what > > they say because of a value they put on their character and what others > are > > caused to hear and believe by their free speech rights, but these folks > have > > so-called core values that are floating, having nothing beyond which they > > will not go. > > > > That's the bugle I sound, John. Not the end of this great nation, not at > > all. Just the cost to fix what we might have been able to prevent before > we > > have to ask good folks to get themselves killed to fix it. > > > > Nico > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Vormbaum" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" > > > > > > > Rob, Nico, > > > > > > THANK YOU for your service to our country. > > > > > > Just my $0.02 worth, but this country is a lot more difficult to topple > > than > > > one would first think. Despite leaders who make bad choices, it's the > > > average citizen that makes this country great. Some of us exist every > day > > in > > > "condition yellow", and if you recall WWII, once you band this country > > > together and give us a common enemy to fight, we're dang near > unstoppable. > > > > > > I saw this on a small scale, as I was at 2nd Ave. & 9th St. in NYC on > the > > > morning of 9/11. I saw first hand how businessmen teamed with gang > members > > > to help people, and how disparate groups of random New Yorkers banded > > > together. Those who couldn't find their relatives in the WTC quickly > grew > > > crowds to hold hands & pat backs. The scene, although surreal and scary, > > was > > > far from panic; it was nearly immediate organization for the common > good, > > > regardless of personal views. It was the only time in my 37 years that > > I've > > > seen ALL New Yorkers get along. > > > > > > We left the East Village moments after the 2nd airplane hit, and 12 > blocks > > > later, when we passed the first hospital, the line to donate blood was > > > already 4 HOURS LONG. They were turning people away, asking them to come > > > back & donate later in the day, or the next day. > > > > > > It IS a tragedy that it sometimes takes an event like Pearl Harbor, > 9/11, > > > etc. to unite us. But once that happens, all the ideals that make > America > > > great start to show in spades. I too am upset at the lackadaisical view > of > > > National Security, but I also don't underestimate the capability of the > > > American people. > > > > > > /John > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Who is to blame? > > > > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > > > > > > > Well, Nico, since this puts our Commanders in danger, its sorta not > too > > > far > > > > off topic.... > > > > Hackworth really hit the nail on the head. I fought the chinese in Nam > > and > > > > know what they are capable of... > > > > I also fought so that the people in this country could grow so soft > that > > > they > > > > have forgotten that the whole world is out to get us... and get us, > they > > > > will. The time to wake up may be too late. I pray not, for our kids > > sake. > > > They are > > > > the ones we have let down so badly, by having cowards and and the > > morally > > > > dead for past leaders. > > > > Flew the Commander to Monroe with Steve yesterday! Had a blast! Cheers > > to > > > all > > > > of ya. > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2005 11:20:47 AM Central Standard Time, > > > > nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who is to blame for this? > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Kahn wrote this in the NY Times today: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/asia/15china.html?ex112209120 > > > > > 0&enf9c9fef13f55ca56&ei5070&emceta1 > > > > > > > > > > Read what David Hackworth wrote about this in May 2000: > > > > > http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3921b33667c2.htm > > > > > > > > > > And Charles Smith in Jan 2003: > > > > > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml > > > > > > > > > > I've been beating the drum about the enemy from within for years. > They > > > are > > > > > citizens, yet they are as dangerous as any foreign enemy this > country > > > has ever > > > > > had. > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1169 (20050714) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:18 PM PST US From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" Subject: Commander-List: 560 with the 540 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" Is there an STC that allows one to change the GO-480s on the early 560s to the IGO-540s that are on the 560F? Thanks! Ben ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:29 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560 with the 540 --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 15-Jul-05 20:51:01 Pacific Daylight Time, ben@gmpexpress.net writes: Is there an STC that allows one to change the GO-480s on the early 560s to the IGO-540s that are on the 560F? No. That's the short answer. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.