Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:49 AM - Aviation Converters and Calculators (Ben Baltrusaitis)
2. 06:47 AM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (Bill Bow)
3. 07:17 AM - Re: Tail Stand and 680F(p) (COMMANDER560@cs.com)
4. 07:19 AM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (Moe)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (Bill Bow)
6. 07:27 AM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (Tom Fisher)
7. 08:02 AM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (Ben Baltrusaitis)
8. 08:42 AM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (Moe)
9. 10:50 AM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (Tom Fisher)
10. 01:21 PM - 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT (BertBerry1@aol.com)
11. 03:38 PM - Re: Tail Stand and 680F(p) (Moe)
12. 04:20 PM - Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT (nico css)
13. 05:24 PM - Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT (Moe)
14. 05:32 PM - Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT (nico css)
15. 06:08 PM - 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT (Lowell Girod)
16. 09:00 PM - Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT (CloudCraft@AOL.COM)
17. 11:13 PM - Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators (W J R HAMILTON)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
Have you guys seen this useful Aviation related site?
{Yes, it really is an aviation site}
http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html
Ben
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Interesting.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis"
> <ben@gmpexpress.net>
>
> Have you guys seen this useful Aviation related site?
> {Yes, it really is an aviation site}
>
> http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html
>
> Ben
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Stand and 680F(p) |
--> Commander-List message posted by: COMMANDER560@cs.com
Moe, sorry for the late reply, but have been gone for a couple of weeks. The
tail stand came from a early 680T, would that work for you? Regards, Joe
Shepherd
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Ben,
Thanks for the tip, this is a very cool sight!
Having said this, there is a flaw in the engine compression ratio
calculator, in that it does not take into account the area from the top sill
of the top ring groove to the deck of the piston ( a very common mistake).
Regards,
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis"
<ben@gmpexpress.net>
>
> Have you guys seen this useful Aviation related site?
> {Yes, it really is an aviation site}
>
> http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html
>
> Ben
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
It would probably take a piston builder to know that.:>)
That too is interesting.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> Ben,
>
> Thanks for the tip, this is a very cool sight!
>
> Having said this, there is a flaw in the engine compression ratio
> calculator, in that it does not take into account the area from the top
> sill
> of the top ring groove to the deck of the piston ( a very common mistake).
>
> Regards,
>
> Moe
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
> To: "Aero Commander list" <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
>
>
>> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis"
> <ben@gmpexpress.net>
>>
>> Have you guys seen this useful Aviation related site?
>> {Yes, it really is an aviation site}
>>
>> http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Nice assortment of conversions, one thing missing was a
slope/distant/altitude calculator.
i.e. how many miles back will I intercept the glide slope at this altitude?
I used to know it but I can't find a reference to this common calculation
and I can't remember my geometry formula.
Tom F.
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> Ben,
>
> Thanks for the tip, this is a very cool sight!
>
> Having said this, there is a flaw in the engine compression ratio
> calculator, in that it does not take into account the area from the top
sill
> of the top ring groove to the deck of the piston ( a very common mistake).
>
> Regards,
>
> Moe
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
> To: "Aero Commander list" <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis"
> <ben@gmpexpress.net>
> >
> > Have you guys seen this useful Aviation related site?
> > {Yes, it really is an aviation site}
> >
> > http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html
> >
> > Ben
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
Tom, There was just an article on rules of thumb for crosswinds and descent in
the Summer edition of "Flight Levels".
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Fisher
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Nice assortment of conversions, one thing missing was a
slope/distant/altitude calculator.
i.e. how many miles back will I intercept the glide slope at this altitude?
I used to know it but I can't find a reference to this common calculation
and I can't remember my geometry formula.
Tom F.
C-GISS
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Right on!
Was just wondering if any of the other calculators had similar errors.
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
>
> It would probably take a piston builder to know that.:>)
>
> That too is interesting.
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> >
> > Ben,
> >
> > Thanks for the tip, this is a very cool sight!
> >
> > Having said this, there is a flaw in the engine compression ratio
> > calculator, in that it does not take into account the area from the top
> > sill
> > of the top ring groove to the deck of the piston ( a very common
mistake).
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Moe
> > N680RR
> > 680F(p)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
> > To: "Aero Commander list" <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
> >
> >
> >> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis"
> > <ben@gmpexpress.net>
> >>
> >> Have you guys seen this useful Aviation related site?
> >> {Yes, it really is an aviation site}
> >>
> >> http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html
> >>
> >> Ben
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Thanks Ben, unfortunately I do not receive Flight Levels as I fly a 680FLP
(Mr.RPM) and I it appears to me that Flight Levels caters to the turbines
only.
Tom F.
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis"
<ben@gmpexpress.net>
>
> Tom, There was just an article on rules of thumb for crosswinds and
descent in the Summer edition of "Flight Levels".
> Ben
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Fisher
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Aviation Converters and Calculators
>
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>
> Nice assortment of conversions, one thing missing was a
> slope/distant/altitude calculator.
> i.e. how many miles back will I intercept the glide slope at this
altitude?
> I used to know it but I can't find a reference to this common
calculation
> and I can't remember my geometry formula.
>
> Tom F.
> C-GISS
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT |
--> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com
I just sent Nico the October 1983 Private Pilot Report on the 500B, so be
looking for it.
Thanks again Nico.
Bert
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Stand and 680F(p) |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Joe,
I was looking for a tailstand that can be easily weighted to lift the front
wheel off the ground. Previously, we had one that could be filled with
water and it would lift the front.
Thanx!
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: <COMMANDER560@cs.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Tail Stand and 680F(p)
> --> Commander-List message posted by: COMMANDER560@cs.com
>
> Moe, sorry for the late reply, but have been gone for a couple of weeks.
The
> tail stand came from a early 680T, would that work for you? Regards, Joe
> Shepherd
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Folks,
This is where it is
http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Aero%20Commanders/Articles%20Manuals%20etc/_8-19-2005/
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <BertBerry1@aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT
> --> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com
>
> I just sent Nico the October 1983 Private Pilot Report on the 500B, so be
> looking for it.
>
> Thanks again Nico.
>
> Bert
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Nico,
Thanks again for hosting these.
Did you get the UPS box with two articles in it?
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
----- Original Message -----
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
> Folks,
> This is where it is
>
http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Aero%20Commanders/Articles%20Manuals%20etc/_8-19-2005/
> Thanks
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BertBerry1@aol.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com
> >
> > I just sent Nico the October 1983 Private Pilot Report on the 500B, so
be
> > looking for it.
> >
> > Thanks again Nico.
> >
> > Bert
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
I just read Kevin Murphy's article on the 500B and it is a wonder it made it
past the editor's desk, in my not-always-humble opinion. Wasn't he supposed
to write about the 500B and not his struggles with getting his ME-rating? Or
his passion for singles? Or how his Cessna 210 beats a King Air? Is it even
wise to do a ME-rating in a complex twin? I don't think so. It sure sounds
like a more intelligent course of action to wind up the fans of an Apache or
Duchess to get the gist of the thing before strapping something like a 500B
onto one's cheeks.
Even though his account was meant to be humorous, it doesn't help that he
wrote allowing the airspeed to drop below VMC would cause the plane to drop
out of the sky. ("... plummeting to earth without so much as a
bye-the-bye.") Didn't his instructor demonstrate that, in a single engine
configuration, the engine that kills you is the live one and throttling back
on the live engine is a distinct (not necessarily desirable) option when
having to fly close to VMC?
I have a question for you guys who have more experience than I in these
matters. Kevin wrote that above a certain altitude the 500B would spin
before stalling (in SE config) but at a lower altitude it would stall before
spinning. (I never liked referring to loss of control due to loss of VMC as
spinning. Spinning an aircraft is caused by a distinct aerodynamic
configuration, regardless of the number or type of engines.) Now, if we
consider that the altitudes he speaks of here are between about 18,000' and
sea level, how would that small layer of atmosphere cause the aerodynamic
properties of the airframe to change that much? Surely, if an IAS (pressure)
at sea level mandates a certain behavior of the airfoil, it would hardly
change if that same IAS (pressure) is achieved at, say, 8,000'. The
groundspeed would change, we know that, but the aerodynamic behavior? I
don't get it.
If he implied that the higher altitude would reduce the power, and therefore
the effect, of the live engine causing a lower VMC at higher altitudes, I
would agree, but then his language and, so it appears, his understanding of
the mechanics of the phenomenon is lacking. On page 5, he said this, "A bit
lower in altitude, the Commander will stall before it starts spinning..."
That doesn't sound like he's referring to the engine's diminishing
horsepower at higher altitudes.
Anyway, if you throw a pair of hair-dryers into the nacelles, everything he
said about this in his article is out the door. Am I missing something?
Oh, one more thing. The takeoff procedure his instructor demonstrated, by
pulling back on the stick before the takeoff run, so that the AC can rotate
spontaneously, should surely increase the takeoff run because of the induced
drag. I always favored my Commander's ability to remain neutral until a
deliberate rotation is executed, because, so I believe, it accelerates in a
much cleaner configuration. What say you?
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <BertBerry1@aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT
> --> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com
>
> I just sent Nico the October 1983 Private Pilot Report on the 500B, so be
> looking for it.
>
> Thanks again Nico.
>
> Bert
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Lowell Girod" <dongirod@earthlink.net>
Nico;
As I recall, when we were training or needed a stall speed, we went to the
book and plugged in density altitude and gross weight, the chart would then
give us a stall/stick shaker speed which was 10 Kts. above stall. As for
the take off maneuver, I always thought that is why you called out V1,
go/no go speed for a balanced runway and Vr, as I recall was to rotate at
one half degree per second until the desired angle on the flight director
was achieved to maintain the second segment climb airspeed. I think if
holding the yoke back would have been the most desirable way to takeoff,
the Boeing test pilots would have described that in the book, especially
when performance is so critical.
Did I remember that correct Jim & Bilbo.? Sure hope this isn't a rating
ride oral!
Don
> [Original Message]
> From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 8/19/2005 8:32:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
> I just read Kevin Murphy's article on the 500B and it is a wonder it made
it
> past the editor's desk, in my not-always-humble opinion. Wasn't he
supposed
> to write about the 500B and not his struggles with getting his ME-rating?
Or
> his passion for singles? Or how his Cessna 210 beats a King Air? Is it
even
> wise to do a ME-rating in a complex twin? I don't think so. It sure sounds
> like a more intelligent course of action to wind up the fans of an Apache
or
> Duchess to get the gist of the thing before strapping something like a
500B
> onto one's cheeks.
>
> Even though his account was meant to be humorous, it doesn't help that he
> wrote allowing the airspeed to drop below VMC would cause the plane to
drop
> out of the sky. ("... plummeting to earth without so much as a
> bye-the-bye.") Didn't his instructor demonstrate that, in a single engine
> configuration, the engine that kills you is the live one and throttling
back
> on the live engine is a distinct (not necessarily desirable) option when
> having to fly close to VMC?
>
> I have a question for you guys who have more experience than I in these
> matters. Kevin wrote that above a certain altitude the 500B would spin
> before stalling (in SE config) but at a lower altitude it would stall
before
> spinning. (I never liked referring to loss of control due to loss of VMC
as
> spinning. Spinning an aircraft is caused by a distinct aerodynamic
> configuration, regardless of the number or type of engines.) Now, if we
> consider that the altitudes he speaks of here are between about 18,000'
and
> sea level, how would that small layer of atmosphere cause the aerodynamic
> properties of the airframe to change that much? Surely, if an IAS
(pressure)
> at sea level mandates a certain behavior of the airfoil, it would hardly
> change if that same IAS (pressure) is achieved at, say, 8,000'. The
> groundspeed would change, we know that, but the aerodynamic behavior? I
> don't get it.
>
> If he implied that the higher altitude would reduce the power, and
therefore
> the effect, of the live engine causing a lower VMC at higher altitudes, I
> would agree, but then his language and, so it appears, his understanding
of
> the mechanics of the phenomenon is lacking. On page 5, he said this, "A
bit
> lower in altitude, the Commander will stall before it starts spinning..."
> That doesn't sound like he's referring to the engine's diminishing
> horsepower at higher altitudes.
>
> Anyway, if you throw a pair of hair-dryers into the nacelles, everything
he
> said about this in his article is out the door. Am I missing something?
>
> Oh, one more thing. The takeoff procedure his instructor demonstrated, by
> pulling back on the stick before the takeoff run, so that the AC can
rotate
> spontaneously, should surely increase the takeoff run because of the
induced
> drag. I always favored my Commander's ability to remain neutral until a
> deliberate rotation is executed, because, so I believe, it accelerates in
a
> much cleaner configuration. What say you?
>
> Thanks
> Nico
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BertBerry1@aol.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com
> >
> > I just sent Nico the October 1983 Private Pilot Report on the 500B, so
be
> > looking for it.
> >
> > Thanks again Nico.
> >
> > Bert
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 500B OCTOBER 1983 PILOT REPORT |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 19-Aug-05 17:32:52 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
I always favored my Commander's ability to remain neutral until a
deliberate rotation is executed, because, so I believe, it accelerates in a
much cleaner configuration. What say you?
Nico,
Thanks for putting up the article -- and thanks for putting up with such a
nit wit article.
Mr. Murhpy is confused about Vmc and spinning and stalls and altitudes -- at
least that's what impression my quick glance at his article gave me.
As to takeoff procedures, I actually taught short field takeoff with the yoke
held approximately 1/2 way back to have neutral elevator at the start of the
roll.
Pre flight, I'd have my client sit in the airplane, pull back (it's heavy
with zero airspeed!) while I watched his elevator from outside until it was
streamlined and I'd shout to him, "There! Learn that placement!"
During acceleration, the elevator would become light and the trick was to
keep the same streamlined position -- not to pull back for the same back pressure
feel -- until rotation speed.
This technique did yield the best acceleration, shortest ground roll and
climb out transition. Part of it is stream lining of the elevator and thus
reduced drag, but part of it is from keeping the Commander from "pearl diving"
due
to its natural 1 degree negative angle of attack in its ground stance.
Just for fun, a rough field technique on a 680 E or F is: Full up elevator,
release brakes and unstick in a few seconds! Weeeeeeeeee! (now get the nose
down and accelerate to save your life!)
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Aviation Converters and Calculators |
--> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
Tom,
Three time table works pretty well, "close enough for Government work", as
they say.
Three degrees is 320 ft a mile, even if you ignore the 20, it's close, give
or take a bit for the threshold elevation (say the African high veldt, or
Leadville) and the actual glideslope. If you use Jeppesen, there are some
very useful tables in the "Tables and Codes" tab.
Another useful rule of thumb, particularly useful on a non precision
approach, especially on a "black hole" approach is for Rate of Descent:
"Half the groundspeed plus 50"
Ergo: Groudspeed say 120 kt. therefor "half" = "60" + 50 = 650 fpm for a 3
degree descent.
Works on everything from my 500A through to the B747-438, in my experience.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
At 00:22 20/08/2005, you wrote:
>--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
><tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>
>Nice assortment of conversions, one thing missing was a
>slope/distant/altitude calculator.
>i.e. how many miles back will I intercept the glide slope at this altitude?
>I used to know it but I can't find a reference to this common calculation
>and I can't remember my geometry formula.
>
>Tom F.
>C-GISS
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