---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/31/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:01 AM - Re: Fuel Valves and Meteors (Tom Fisher) 2. 08:20 AM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (Moe) 3. 08:25 AM - Re: Fuel Valves and Meteors (Moe) 4. 08:53 AM - Re: Fuel Valves and Meteors (CloudCraft@aol.com) 5. 09:40 AM - Re: Fuel Valves and Meteors (Moe) 6. 09:49 AM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (nico css) 7. 10:16 AM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (Moe) 8. 10:44 AM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (nico css) 9. 10:47 AM - 500S SHRIKE REPORT (BertBerry1@aol.com) 10. 11:12 AM - 500U Aero Commander Report Jan 1967 (BertBerry1@aol.com) 11. 12:12 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (RRamm52@cs.com) 12. 02:10 PM - 690 TURBO COMMANDER APRIL 1972 (BertBerry1@aol.com) 13. 02:59 PM - Re: 690 TURBO COMMANDER APRIL 1972 (RRamm52@cs.com) 14. 04:29 PM - another Commander for sale (Ben Baltrusaitis) 15. 04:49 PM - Re: another Commander for sale (Ben Baltrusaitis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:03 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" I cycle all my electric valves to listen for activation before starting. Tom F. C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > This comes under the heading of, "What if we get hit by a meteor while in > flight" but I just have to toss this out. > > On Ted Smith designed airplanes (Aero Commanders, Aero Stars and even up into > the Westwind) there are "Quiet Checks" that I like to run before starting an > engine. This includes - depending on model -- fuel shut-offs, fuel selectors > and electric hydraulic pumps. > > To take the Chicken Little theory one maybe-not-so-absurd step further, > > >>As an example, I was trained to leave them open and > > never close them unless I was on fire, because "what if you were at a remote > > strip, and a servo failed on actuation while the valve was closed? Then > > you'd be stuck there!" > > > What if you had an in-flight fire and the valve had failed? Then you'd be > stuck there. > > I totally agree that one can test an airplane to death and create more > maintenance problems than should exist by repeatedly testing things that are fine > ... but some components I want to fail on the ground ... and they'll probably > fail in the air after passing the preflight test. > > We tend to operate and pass on ideas based on personal fears and/or > experiences so I think anyone's techniques and procedures are valid. I'm just offering > up mine. > > (No, I've never had a Commander catch on fire and I've never had a fuel > shut-off valve or selector valve fail, so go figure why I do what I do!) > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:12 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Rob, Regarding your inquirey about the Shrike mods on a 500B: On my 680F(p) N680RR the shrike nose, winglets and flap gap seals have been installed. The winglets and flap gap seals were installed at the same time by Commander Aero in Dayton, O. so an indivudal analises of the two mods is impossible. Frankly, there did not seem to be too much difference in cruise flight Those guys are really first class, and a joy to deal with. As one wag told me before having them installed "if you get the winglets be sure and have the flap gap seals installed, as they will make up for the speed loss that you will get with the winglets". Having said this I love them and would gladly have them done again. The winglets give the plane a much better ramp presence. Also, the nav lights (red and green) and strobes can be checked from the pilots seat at night. It does stall without as much buffet, but you still get plenty of warning. The nose conversion also makes the plane look about 100 miles an hour faster on the ground. Keep in mind that it is merely a cap over the original nose, and the weight penalty is 41 pounds. At the time that it was installed it appeared that the plane was more pitch sensitive after the instillation. Since airplanes are a matter of personal preference, much the same as the style of clothes that we wear and the girls that we choose, again, I would do it all over again. The serious down side of doing a Shrike conversion is that ground control and others actually think that you are a Shrike instead of a real commander with big geared engines (JUST KIDDING!) Moe Mills N680RR ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > In a message dated 10/28/2005 9:54:38 PM Central Standard Time, > CloudCraft@aol.com writes: > > As far as performance goes, I don't have any charts around and probably > > never > > did. I've found that at DENALTs of 8000 to 10,000, the average 500B has a > > hull speed of 165 knots (TAS) at 62-65% power. > > > > Push the power and fuel flows up and you'll get 175 to 178 Knots. > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > Hello, Gordon > Good to hear from you. What do you think [or know] the shrike kit does for > cruise? > Full throttle, LOP at about 12,000 feet? And winglets, if they matter in > cruise at that altitude. We also have the Q tip props. Stock IO540's....we'll > report back to you with observed performance in another couple of weeks, God > willing.....and the money pump keeps working..... > Thanks, Rob > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:02 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Commander Folks: On my 680F(p) the engine oil/ fuel shut off valves are safety wired (0 too thin copper wire) to prevent accidental shut off during flight. Obviously, Aero Commander did not want you to use them except in case of emergency. Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" > > I cycle all my electric valves to listen for activation before starting. > Tom F. > C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > > > This comes under the heading of, "What if we get hit by a meteor while in > > flight" but I just have to toss this out. > > > > On Ted Smith designed airplanes (Aero Commanders, Aero Stars and even up > into > > the Westwind) there are "Quiet Checks" that I like to run before starting > an > > engine. This includes - depending on model -- fuel shut-offs, fuel > selectors > > and electric hydraulic pumps. > > > > To take the Chicken Little theory one maybe-not-so-absurd step further, > > > > >>As an example, I was trained to leave them open and > > > never close them unless I was on fire, because "what if you were at a > remote > > > strip, and a servo failed on actuation while the valve was closed? Then > > > you'd be stuck there!" > > > > > > What if you had an in-flight fire and the valve had failed? Then you'd be > > stuck there. > > > > I totally agree that one can test an airplane to death and create more > > maintenance problems than should exist by repeatedly testing things that > are fine > > ... but some components I want to fail on the ground ... and they'll > probably > > fail in the air after passing the preflight test. > > > > We tend to operate and pass on ideas based on personal fears and/or > > experiences so I think anyone's techniques and procedures are valid. I'm > just offering > > up mine. > > > > (No, I've never had a Commander catch on fire and I've never had a fuel > > shut-off valve or selector valve fail, so go figure why I do what I do!) > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > > > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:43 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 31-Oct-05 08:25:45 Pacific Standard Time, moe@rosspistons.com writes: On my 680F(p) the engine oil/ fuel shut off valves are safety wired (0 too thin copper wire) to prevent accidental shut off during flight. Obviously, Aero Commander did not want you to use them except in case of emergency. Moe, The guarded ("cat hair" wired) switches on the overhead of the 680F series are oil and hydraulic shut offs. The fuel shut off is the rotary selector valve in line with the rest of the overhead switches. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:35 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Sorry! Your' right. What ever was I thinking? Moe ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuel Valves and Meteors > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 31-Oct-05 08:25:45 Pacific Standard Time, > moe@rosspistons.com writes: > On my 680F(p) the engine oil/ fuel shut off valves are safety wired (0 too > thin copper wire) to prevent accidental shut off during flight. Obviously, > Aero Commander did not want you to use them except in case of emergency. > > > Moe, > > The guarded ("cat hair" wired) switches on the overhead of the 680F series > are oil and hydraulic shut offs. > > The fuel shut off is the rotary selector valve in line with the rest of the > overhead switches. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:22 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Moe, Don't the winglets reduce wingtip vortices and hence drag?, which will increase the speed? Or am I missing something here. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > Rob, > > Regarding your inquirey about the Shrike mods on a 500B: > > On my 680F(p) N680RR the shrike nose, winglets and flap gap seals have been > installed. The winglets and flap gap seals were installed at the same time > by Commander Aero in Dayton, O. so an indivudal analises of the two mods is > impossible. Frankly, there did not seem to be too much difference in cruise > flight Those guys are really first class, and a joy to deal with. As one > wag told me before having them installed "if you get the winglets be sure > and have the flap gap seals installed, as they will make up for the speed > loss that you will get with the winglets". Having said this I love them and > would gladly have them done again. The winglets give the plane a much > better ramp presence. Also, the nav lights (red and green) and strobes can > be checked from the pilots seat at night. It does stall without as much > buffet, but you still get plenty of warning. > > The nose conversion also makes the plane look about 100 miles an hour faster > on the ground. Keep in mind that it is merely a cap over the original nose, > and the weight penalty is 41 pounds. At the time that it was installed it > appeared that the plane was more pitch sensitive after the instillation. > Since airplanes are a matter of personal preference, much the same as the > style of clothes that we wear and the girls that we choose, again, I would > do it all over again. > > The serious down side of doing a Shrike conversion is that ground control > and others actually think that you are a Shrike instead of a real commander > with big geared engines (JUST KIDDING!) > > Moe Mills > N680RR > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other > questions > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > > > In a message dated 10/28/2005 9:54:38 PM Central Standard Time, > > CloudCraft@aol.com writes: > > > As far as performance goes, I don't have any charts around and probably > > > never > > > did. I've found that at DENALTs of 8000 to 10,000, the average 500B has > a > > > hull speed of 165 knots (TAS) at 62-65% power. > > > > > > Push the power and fuel flows up and you'll get 175 to 178 Knots. > > > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > > Hello, Gordon > > Good to hear from you. What do you think [or know] the shrike kit does for > > cruise? > > Full throttle, LOP at about 12,000 feet? And winglets, if they matter in > > cruise at that altitude. We also have the Q tip props. Stock > IO540's....we'll > > report back to you with observed performance in another couple of weeks, > God > > willing.....and the money pump keeps working..... > > Thanks, Rob > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:35 AM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Nico, This is supposed to be the case, however, no one who makes the winglets will quote any figures on lift, drag, or speed. I thought that the idea was to block the transfer of positive pressure under the wing to the top of the wing where there is negative pressure (or vice versa). Shouldn't droopy wing tips be better than winglets? The droopy wing tips seemed to help my Skymaster quite a bit (although they were done with a complete STOL Kit and it was impossible to tell). If wingtip vortices create drag, then the Boeing 757 must be a very inefficient bird? Perhaps someone with aerodynamic expertise will weigh in on the subject. Regards, Moe ----- Original Message ----- From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions > --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" > > Moe, > Don't the winglets reduce wingtip vortices and hence drag?, which will > increase the speed? Or am I missing something here. > Nico > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Moe" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other > questions > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > > > Rob, > > > > Regarding your inquirey about the Shrike mods on a 500B: > > > > On my 680F(p) N680RR the shrike nose, winglets and flap gap seals have > been > > installed. The winglets and flap gap seals were installed at the same > time > > by Commander Aero in Dayton, O. so an indivudal analises of the two mods > is > > impossible. Frankly, there did not seem to be too much difference in > cruise > > flight Those guys are really first class, and a joy to deal with. As one > > wag told me before having them installed "if you get the winglets be sure > > and have the flap gap seals installed, as they will make up for the speed > > loss that you will get with the winglets". Having said this I love them > and > > would gladly have them done again. The winglets give the plane a much > > better ramp presence. Also, the nav lights (red and green) and strobes > can > > be checked from the pilots seat at night. It does stall without as much > > buffet, but you still get plenty of warning. > > > > The nose conversion also makes the plane look about 100 miles an hour > faster > > on the ground. Keep in mind that it is merely a cap over the original > nose, > > and the weight penalty is 41 pounds. At the time that it was installed it > > appeared that the plane was more pitch sensitive after the instillation. > > Since airplanes are a matter of personal preference, much the same as the > > style of clothes that we wear and the girls that we choose, again, I would > > do it all over again. > > > > The serious down side of doing a Shrike conversion is that ground control > > and others actually think that you are a Shrike instead of a real > commander > > with big geared engines (JUST KIDDING!) > > > > Moe Mills > > N680RR > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other > > questions > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > > > > > In a message dated 10/28/2005 9:54:38 PM Central Standard Time, > > > CloudCraft@aol.com writes: > > > > As far as performance goes, I don't have any charts around and > probably > > > > never > > > > did. I've found that at DENALTs of 8000 to 10,000, the average 500B > has > > a > > > > hull speed of 165 knots (TAS) at 62-65% power. > > > > > > > > Push the power and fuel flows up and you'll get 175 to 178 Knots. > > > > > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > > > > Hello, Gordon > > > Good to hear from you. What do you think [or know] the shrike kit does > for > > > cruise? > > > Full throttle, LOP at about 12,000 feet? And winglets, if they matter in > > > cruise at that altitude. We also have the Q tip props. Stock > > IO540's....we'll > > > report back to you with observed performance in another couple of weeks, > > God > > > willing.....and the money pump keeps working..... > > > Thanks, Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:25 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Moe, I am not an aerodynamic expert but I always understood the inability of wingtip vortices to fully develop in ground effect to be the cause of the "extra lift" of an aircraft less than 75% of the wingspan AGL. Wingtip vortices would probably never be eliminated, but disrupting them from trying to equalize the pressure differential top and bottom of the wing would increase the efficiency of the wing. In the back of my mind the equation wingtip vortices=drag lingers. BTW, I have a few hours on a Skymaster with a STOL kit, and man, that thing just about hovers when played like a fiddle. So does the 206. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > Nico, > > This is supposed to be the case, however, no one who makes the winglets will > quote any figures on lift, drag, or speed. I thought that the idea was to > block the transfer of positive pressure under the wing to the top of the > wing where there is negative pressure (or vice versa). Shouldn't droopy > wing tips be better than winglets? The droopy wing tips seemed to help my > Skymaster quite a bit (although they were done with a complete STOL Kit and > it was impossible to tell). If wingtip vortices create drag, then the Boeing > 757 must be a very inefficient bird? > > Perhaps someone with aerodynamic expertise will weigh in on the subject. > > Regards, > > Moe > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nico css" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other > questions > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" > > > > > Moe, > > Don't the winglets reduce wingtip vortices and hence drag?, which will > > increase the speed? Or am I missing something here. > > Nico > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Moe" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other > > questions > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > > > > > Rob, > > > > > > Regarding your inquirey about the Shrike mods on a 500B: > > > > > > On my 680F(p) N680RR the shrike nose, winglets and flap gap seals have > > been > > > installed. The winglets and flap gap seals were installed at the same > > time > > > by Commander Aero in Dayton, O. so an indivudal analises of the two mods > > is > > > impossible. Frankly, there did not seem to be too much difference in > > cruise > > > flight Those guys are really first class, and a joy to deal with. As > one > > > wag told me before having them installed "if you get the winglets be > sure > > > and have the flap gap seals installed, as they will make up for the > speed > > > loss that you will get with the winglets". Having said this I love them > > and > > > would gladly have them done again. The winglets give the plane a much > > > better ramp presence. Also, the nav lights (red and green) and strobes > > can > > > be checked from the pilots seat at night. It does stall without as much > > > buffet, but you still get plenty of warning. > > > > > > The nose conversion also makes the plane look about 100 miles an hour > > faster > > > on the ground. Keep in mind that it is merely a cap over the original > > nose, > > > and the weight penalty is 41 pounds. At the time that it was installed > it > > > appeared that the plane was more pitch sensitive after the instillation. > > > Since airplanes are a matter of personal preference, much the same as > the > > > style of clothes that we wear and the girls that we choose, again, I > would > > > do it all over again. > > > > > > The serious down side of doing a Shrike conversion is that ground > control > > > and others actually think that you are a Shrike instead of a real > > commander > > > with big geared engines (JUST KIDDING!) > > > > > > Moe Mills > > > N680RR > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other > > > questions > > > > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/28/2005 9:54:38 PM Central Standard Time, > > > > CloudCraft@aol.com writes: > > > > > As far as performance goes, I don't have any charts around and > > probably > > > > > never > > > > > did. I've found that at DENALTs of 8000 to 10,000, the average 500B > > has > > > a > > > > > hull speed of 165 knots (TAS) at 62-65% power. > > > > > > > > > > Push the power and fuel flows up and you'll get 175 to 178 Knots. > > > > > > > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > > > > > > Hello, Gordon > > > > Good to hear from you. What do you think [or know] the shrike kit does > > for > > > > cruise? > > > > Full throttle, LOP at about 12,000 feet? And winglets, if they matter > in > > > > cruise at that altitude. We also have the Q tip props. Stock > > > IO540's....we'll > > > > report back to you with observed performance in another couple of > weeks, > > > God > > > > willing.....and the money pump keeps working..... > > > > Thanks, Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:08 AM PST US From: BertBerry1@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: 500S SHRIKE REPORT --> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com FYI: I just sent Nico the March 1968 Flying Report of the NEW 500 Shrike. Enjoy, Bert ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:38 AM PST US From: BertBerry1@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: 500U Aero Commander Report Jan 1967 --> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com I just dropped this one in Nico's Lap as well. Thanks Nico, Bert ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:06 PM PST US From: RRamm52@cs.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com Thanks, Moe, I appreciate your insight and will have a much more comprehensive view after I get her home.... Rob moe@rosspistons.com writes: > > Rob, > > Regarding your inquirey about the Shrike mods on a 500B: > > On my 680F(p) N680RR the shrike nose, winglets and flap gap seals have been > installed. The winglets and flap gap seals were installed at the same time > by Commander Aero in Dayton, O. so an indivudal analises of the two mods is > impossible. Frankly, there did not seem to be too much difference in cruise > flight Those guys are really first class, and a joy to deal with. As one > wag told me before having them installed "if you get the winglets be sure > and have the flap gap seals installed, as they will make up for the speed > loss that you will get with the winglets". Having said this I love them and > would gladly have them done again. The winglets give the plane a much > better ramp presence. Also, the nav lights (red and green) and strobes can > be checked from the pilots seat at night. It does stall without as much > buffet, but you still get plenty of warning. > > The nose conversion also makes the plane look about 100 miles an hour faster > on the ground. Keep in mind that it is merely a cap over the original nose, > and the weight penalty is 41 pounds. At the time that it was installed it > appeared that the plane was more pitch sensitive after the instillation. > Since airplanes are a matter of personal preference, much the same as the > style of clothes that we wear and the girls that we choose, again, I would > do it all over again. > > The serious down side of doing a Shrike conversion is that ground control > and others actually think that you are a Shrike instead of a real commander > with big geared engines (JUST KIDDING!) > > Moe Mills > N680RR ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:42 PM PST US From: BertBerry1@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: 690 TURBO COMMANDER APRIL 1972 --> Commander-List message posted by: BertBerry1@aol.com Just sent this one to Nico as well. Bert ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:18 PM PST US From: RRamm52@cs.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 690 TURBO COMMANDER APRIL 1972 --> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com In a message dated 10/31/2005 4:14:07 PM Central Standard Time, BertBerry1@aol.com writes: > Just sent this one to Nico as well. > > Bert Hi, Bert Could you post Nico's site address?? Thanks, Rob ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:00 PM PST US From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" Subject: Commander-List: another Commander for sale --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" I just noticed this posting on Controller: http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?OHID1096924&guid6656A855587642D4BA9F9C0785067779 Again, I have no interest. I just wanted to send it to you guys for research. Ben ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:37 PM PST US From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" Subject: Re: Commander-List: another Commander for sale --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" That didn't work. Here is some of the info: COMMANDER 560A 1956, S/N: 275, unknown, 0 SCMOH SCMOH, 0 SHSI, IFR, Good condition, complete, needs work, located in Kingman AZ, 1990 Paint, 1991 Int, 6 Seats, For Sale - $8,000