Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:54 AM - Re: 500B winglet length (Moe)
2. 07:04 AM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (Moe)
3. 07:08 AM - Re: 500B winglet length (MASON CHEVAILLIER)
4. 07:17 AM - Re: 500B winglet length (Myron Ashley)
5. 08:16 AM - Re: 500B winglet length (Tom Fisher)
6. 09:01 AM - Re: 500B winglet length (nico css)
7. 09:19 AM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (AAInstalls@aol.com)
8. 09:54 AM - Re: 500B winglet length (John Vormbaum)
9. 12:19 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (MASON CHEVAILLIER)
10. 12:54 PM - Awsome (and quick) Commander Conversion (Brock Lorber)
11. 02:24 PM - Re: Awesome (and quick) Commander Conversion (swperk@earthlink.net)
12. 04:24 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (Moe)
13. 04:42 PM - Re: 500B winglet length (Myron Ashley)
14. 06:34 PM - Re: 500B winglet length (John Vormbaum)
15. 07:22 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
16. 07:24 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
17. 07:58 PM - Re: 500B winglet length (Myron Ashley)
18. 08:27 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions ()
19. 09:01 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (RRamm52@cs.com)
20. 09:16 PM - Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions (nico css)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Myron,
Congratulations on your purchase!
The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49 feet.
Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out board
of the winglets?
Regards,
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
>
> Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has winglets. I
> will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
hanger
> space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to the
> already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
space.
> If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I would
> appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> Thanks,
> Myron Ashley
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> >
> > Myron,
> >
> > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
length
> at
> > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the angle (?)
> > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the overall
> > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a 680F(p).
> >
> > Moe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> wingspan?
> > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay turbo
mod
> > can be found?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Myron Ashley
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Commander drivers,
In reference to JB's email regarding flap gap seals degrading take off
performance. On N680RR which is a 680F(p) it appears that about an
additional 80 to 100 feet is required for take off. I base this on 8,000
gross weight, about 75'F and a density altitude of under 1,000 feet, which
is pretty much the "standard" conditions for take off at HHR.
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other
questions
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> HI KIDS..
>
> The gap seals do make a difference in the cruse performance on
the
> Commander family. I have flown several "before & after" and noticed
about a 1
> - 4 kt improvement. However, the gap seals reduce the take off and
obstical
> clearance climb. I installed a set on a 560A many years ago and was
working
> from a short (1600) foor strip. The degridation in TO performance was
> pronounced. If you look at the ramp built into the flap cutout, it is
plain to
> see that the air was intended to remain atached and excite the LE of the
flap.
> Covering this area does infact improve the speed, but at a cost.
> Winglets seem to have a neutral to slightly negative effect on cruse
> performance. At high operating weights and high altitudes where the
airplane is
> flying at a high angle of attack, their may (?) be some improvement. The
> winglets on the Commander are to small to make any real difference. Look
at
> the size compared to say a Boeing 737 (about a 3% increase in speed above
FL
> 350) or Gulfstream and you will see the small size of the Commander
winglet
> wont change much. I flew only one "B & A" and the airplane was about
2kts
> slower below 8 thousand , about the same above 10K. The main attraction
is
> asthetic and personaly, I would put up modest degridation in performance,
they look
> great.
> There are really only two things that truly make airplanes
meaningfully
> faster. A good GPS (and use it, always GPS direct) and more fuel.
Virtually
> all other mods make such a small difference that they will probably never
> pay for themselves.
> On another note. I just returned from delivering Jimmy Rodriguez"
500B
> to him in San Juan PR. I was home only one day and then back to the
> Caribbean for a 7 day cruse with my wife, yippee!!
> Hope all is well in your "Commanderland" jb
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <KAMALA@msn.com>
moe, from factory 680f p 49 ft 6 in. mason according to factory lit.
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe<mailto:moe@rosspistons.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com<mailto:moe@rosspistons.com>>
Myron,
Congratulations on your purchase!
The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49 feet.
Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out board
of the winglets?
Regards,
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com<mailto:mashley2@kc.rr.com>>
To: <commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com<mailto:mashley2@kc.rr.com>>
>
> Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has winglets. I
> will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
hanger
> space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to the
> already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
space.
> If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I would
> appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> Thanks,
> Myron Ashley
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com<mailto:moe@rosspistons.com>>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com<mailto:moe@rosspistons.com>>
> >
> > Myron,
> >
> > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
length
> at
> > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the angle (?)
> > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the overall
> > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a 680F(p).
> >
> > Moe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com<mailto:mashley2@kc.rr.com>>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>>
> > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> <mashley2@kc.rr.com<mailto:mashley2@kc.rr.com>>
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> wingspan?
> > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay turbo
mod
> > can be found?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Myron Ashley
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
Thanks Moe,
It does not have strobes outboard of the winglets or recognition lights.
Thanks,
Myron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> Myron,
> Congratulations on your purchase!
>
> The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49 feet.
> Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
> wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out
board
> of the winglets?
>
> Regards,
>
> Moe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
<mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> >
> > Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has winglets.
I
> > will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
> hanger
> > space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to the
> > already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
> space.
> > If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I would
> > appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> > Thanks,
> > Myron Ashley
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > >
> > > Myron,
> > >
> > > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
> length
> > at
> > > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the angle
(?)
> > > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the
overall
> > > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a 680F(p).
> > >
> > > Moe
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> > wingspan?
> > > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay turbo
> mod
> > > can be found?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Myron Ashley
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
I'm sorry, I usually keep my opinion to myself but in this instance....
Can you say.... "HANGER RASH"?
If you have to worry about inches of clearance between the wing-tips and the
hanger door then you don't want to put your Commander in that hanger.
Tom F.
C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
>
> Thanks Moe,
> It does not have strobes outboard of the winglets or recognition lights.
> Thanks,
> Myron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> >
> > Myron,
> > Congratulations on your purchase!
> >
> > The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49 feet.
> > Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
> > wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out
> board
> > of the winglets?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Moe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > >
> > > Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has
winglets.
> I
> > > will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
> > hanger
> > > space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to the
> > > already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
> > space.
> > > If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I
would
> > > appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Myron Ashley
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > >
> > > > Myron,
> > > >
> > > > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
> > length
> > > at
> > > > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the angle
> (?)
> > > > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the
> overall
> > > > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a
680F(p).
> > > >
> > > > Moe
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> > > wingspan?
> > > > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay
turbo
> > mod
> > > > can be found?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
I was wondering about that.
If the wingspan is 50' get a hangar with a 55' door. You can twist the plane
in, but who would want to. A ding here and a ding there - it's not worth it.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>
> I'm sorry, I usually keep my opinion to myself but in this instance....
> Can you say.... "HANGER RASH"?
> If you have to worry about inches of clearance between the wing-tips and
the
> hanger door then you don't want to put your Commander in that hanger.
>
> Tom F.
> C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM).
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
<mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> >
> > Thanks Moe,
> > It does not have strobes outboard of the winglets or recognition lights.
> > Thanks,
> > Myron
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > >
> > > Myron,
> > > Congratulations on your purchase!
> > >
> > > The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49
feet.
> > > Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
> > > wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out
> > board
> > > of the winglets?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Moe
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has
> winglets.
> > I
> > > > will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
> > > hanger
> > > > space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to
the
> > > > already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
> > > space.
> > > > If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I
> would
> > > > appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Myron,
> > > > >
> > > > > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
> > > length
> > > > at
> > > > > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the
angle
> > (?)
> > > > > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the
> > overall
> > > > > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a
> 680F(p).
> > > > >
> > > > > Moe
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > > > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> > > > wingspan?
> > > > > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay
> turbo
> > > mod
> > > > > can be found?
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: AAInstalls@aol.com
jb, you mentioned the winglets on the B737 and the 3% speed increase above FL350.
The improvement is 3-5% but it's really the reduction in fuel flow. The real
benefit is the drag reduction and that takes place immediately during rotation.
Also, one of the other benefits is the ability to cruise at higher altides
at the same weight. A major airline is flying B757's out of New York/EWR to
cities in Germany, Norway and Sweden all because of the range improvement. The
Boeing winglets are nearly 8' tall but increase the overall wingspan by 10'.
That's nearly a 10% increase in span. If you've ever seen a B747 during cruise
contrailing, the outboard engine trails get tucked inside of the inboard engine
trails due to the wing-tip vortices.
That's my two cents. Al Auger (one-time AC6T aviator that wishes he could remember
the N Number of that one)
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Hi Myron,
The stock wingspan of a 500B is 49 feet 6 inches. Roughly 4" on each wingtip
are from the stock wingtips. The Aerodyne winglets replace those, and I'm
guessing, with the angle, add another 4" per side for a total wingspan of
about 50 feet 2 inches or so.
My experiences looking for hangars are T-hangars, 40-foot hangars (which do
us Commander guys no good) and >50 foot hangars, which around here at least
(northern CA) are ridiculously expensive. I highly doubt that the winglets
themselves are going to make a hangar a no-go. A 50-foot hangar leaves you
3" on each side with the stock wings. You'd need 3 people to pull it in
safely, and I'm still betting that you'd bang a wingtip pretty quickly.
One thing you might want to be sure of when shopping for hangar space: much
more than the wingspan, the height of the tail is a limiting factor. Not too
many non-commercial hangars (again, around here anyway) have enough door
height for a 14'5" tail (plus beacon).
I gave up. I keep mine tied down outside. The cost of new paint/interior
every 7 years or so is still cheaper than 7 years of hangar space where I
live.
Regardless, you're going to LOVE your airplane! My 500B is my passion, and
no matter what I've done, I've never managed to use 100% of the airplane's
capability. It truly is an amazing machine.
Best,
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> Myron,
> Congratulations on your purchase!
>
> The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49 feet.
> Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
> wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out
board
> of the winglets?
>
> Regards,
>
> Moe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
<mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> >
> > Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has winglets.
I
> > will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
> hanger
> > space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to the
> > already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
> space.
> > If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I would
> > appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> > Thanks,
> > Myron Ashley
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > >
> > > Myron,
> > >
> > > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
> length
> > at
> > > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the angle
(?)
> > > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the
overall
> > > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a 680F(p).
> > >
> > > Moe
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> > wingspan?
> > > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay turbo
> mod
> > > can be found?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Myron Ashley
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <KAMALA@msn.com>
as a note on these winglets, they were designed and tested with the help of air
force wind tunnels and engineers for optimun assist to commander wings. so
large or small it supposedly the best for the aircraft.. thanks to dick wartinger
at commander aero. mason
----- Original Message -----
From: AAInstalls@aol.com<mailto:AAInstalls@aol.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions
--> Commander-List message posted by: AAInstalls@aol.com<mailto:AAInstalls@aol.com>
jb, you mentioned the winglets on the B737 and the 3% speed increase above FL350.
The improvement is 3-5% but it's really the reduction in fuel flow. The
real benefit is the drag reduction and that takes place immediately during rotation.
Also, one of the other benefits is the ability to cruise at higher altides
at the same weight. A major airline is flying B757's out of New York/EWR
to cities in Germany, Norway and Sweden all because of the range improvement.
The Boeing winglets are nearly 8' tall but increase the overall wingspan by 10'.
That's nearly a 10% increase in span. If you've ever seen a B747 during cruise
contrailing, the outboard engine trails get tucked inside of the inboard
engine trails due to the wing-tip vortices.
That's my two cents. Al Auger (one-time AC6T aviator that wishes he could remember
the N Number of that one)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Awsome (and quick) Commander Conversion |
--> Commander-List message posted by: Brock Lorber <blorber@southwestcirrus.com>
If y'all haven't tried it, FlightAware is about the best flight tracker
out there, and it's FREE!
http://flightaware.com
Anyway, I was looking over the list of arrivals and departures at KVGT
today. I noticed that N95JM landed this morning at 0826. It was listed
as an AC6L (Commander 685). Now I see it with a scheduled departure
time of 1330 as an AC90!
I didn't know anyone was doing conversions in Las Vegas, or that they
could be completed so quickly! Heck, it took my old mechanic two weeks
to convert 400CH from old tires to new ones! :)
Brock Lorber
702-510-7728
http://www.southwestcirrus.com/n400ch/index.htm
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: Awesome (and quick) Commander Conversion |
--> Commander-List message posted by: swperk@earthlink.net
Hi Brock,
Thanks for the pointer--it's a pretty amazing web site!
Just for fun, I typed in my own tail number and it showed the IFR flight I took
from KDVT to KMYF on Sunday, with not only my scheduled vs. actual departure
and arrival times, but my *actual* ground track--even showing where LA Center
gave me a shortcut.
Stan Perkins
N681SP
-----Original Message-----
From: Brock Lorber <blorber@southwestcirrus.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Awsome (and quick) Commander Conversion
--> Commander-List message posted by: Brock Lorber <blorber@southwestcirrus.com>
If y'all haven't tried it, FlightAware is about the best flight tracker
out there, and it's FREE!
http://flightaware.com
Anyway, I was looking over the list of arrivals and departures at KVGT
today. I noticed that N95JM landed this morning at 0826. It was listed
as an AC6L (Commander 685). Now I see it with a scheduled departure
time of 1330 as an AC90!
I didn't know anyone was doing conversions in Las Vegas, or that they
could be completed so quickly! Heck, it took my old mechanic two weeks
to convert 400CH from old tires to new ones! :)
Brock Lorber
702-510-7728
http://www.southwestcirrus.com/n400ch/index.htm
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
My perception is that the landing roll out is longer with the flap gap
seals. What do you think?
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
----- Original Message -----
From: <dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other
questions
> --> Commander-List message posted by: <dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I've only been flying a Twin Commander for 1.5 years (400 hr.) and
> installed flap gap seals about 50 hr. ago. I don't know about speed
> improvement but the T/O and landings have been a dream since they were
> installed. The plane now "floats" slightly in ground effect and it is a
> breeze to grease it in. After flying a single commander at 3250 GTW and
> upgrading to a 500S at 6750 GTW setting it down without a thump was
> quite a challenge until the gap seals were installed. Now it's easy to
> "grease it" in. Slow speed handling "feels" greatly improved so it is
> easier to maintain a more steady approach speed coming in over the
> numbers which shortens the roll out.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> YOURTCFG@aol.com
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other
> questions
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> HI KIDS..
>
> The gap seals do make a difference in the cruse performance on
> the
> Commander family. I have flown several "before & after" and noticed
> about a 1
> - 4 kt improvement. However, the gap seals reduce the take off and
> obstical
> clearance climb. I installed a set on a 560A many years ago and was
> working
> from a short (1600) foor strip. The degridation in TO performance was
> pronounced. If you look at the ramp built into the flap cutout, it is
> plain to
> see that the air was intended to remain atached and excite the LE of
> the flap.
> Covering this area does infact improve the speed, but at a cost.
> Winglets seem to have a neutral to slightly negative effect on
> cruse
> performance. At high operating weights and high altitudes where the
> airplane is
> flying at a high angle of attack, their may (?) be some improvement.
> The
> winglets on the Commander are to small to make any real difference.
> Look at
> the size compared to say a Boeing 737 (about a 3% increase in speed
> above FL
> 350) or Gulfstream and you will see the small size of the Commander
> winglet
> wont change much. I flew only one "B & A" and the airplane was about
> 2kts
> slower below 8 thousand , about the same above 10K. The main
> attraction is
> asthetic and personaly, I would put up modest degridation in
> performance, they look
> great.
> There are really only two things that truly make airplanes
> meaningfully
> faster. A good GPS (and use it, always GPS direct) and more fuel.
> Virtually
> all other mods make such a small difference that they will probably
> never
> pay for themselves.
> On another note. I just returned from delivering Jimmy Rodriguez"
> 500B
> to him in San Juan PR. I was home only one day and then back to the
> Caribbean for a 7 day cruse with my wife, yippee!!
> Hope all is well in your "Commanderland" jb
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
Thanks for everyone's response. My dilemma is that my airport has 52 ft
hangers and 55 ft hangers. The 55 ft hangers are substantially more
expensive. I was hoping that the winglets did not add allot to the overall
width. If in fact they do I will opt to go with the larger hanger to prevent
hanger rash.
Thanks,
Myron Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
>
> Hi Myron,
>
> The stock wingspan of a 500B is 49 feet 6 inches. Roughly 4" on each
wingtip
> are from the stock wingtips. The Aerodyne winglets replace those, and I'm
> guessing, with the angle, add another 4" per side for a total wingspan of
> about 50 feet 2 inches or so.
>
> My experiences looking for hangars are T-hangars, 40-foot hangars (which
do
> us Commander guys no good) and >50 foot hangars, which around here at
least
> (northern CA) are ridiculously expensive. I highly doubt that the winglets
> themselves are going to make a hangar a no-go. A 50-foot hangar leaves you
> 3" on each side with the stock wings. You'd need 3 people to pull it in
> safely, and I'm still betting that you'd bang a wingtip pretty quickly.
>
> One thing you might want to be sure of when shopping for hangar space:
much
> more than the wingspan, the height of the tail is a limiting factor. Not
too
> many non-commercial hangars (again, around here anyway) have enough door
> height for a 14'5" tail (plus beacon).
>
> I gave up. I keep mine tied down outside. The cost of new paint/interior
> every 7 years or so is still cheaper than 7 years of hangar space where I
> live.
>
> Regardless, you're going to LOVE your airplane! My 500B is my passion, and
> no matter what I've done, I've never managed to use 100% of the airplane's
> capability. It truly is an amazing machine.
>
> Best,
>
> /John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> >
> > Myron,
> > Congratulations on your purchase!
> >
> > The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49 feet.
> > Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
> > wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out
> board
> > of the winglets?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Moe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > >
> > > Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has
winglets.
> I
> > > will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
> > hanger
> > > space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to the
> > > already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
> > space.
> > > If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I
would
> > > appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Myron Ashley
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > >
> > > > Myron,
> > > >
> > > > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
> > length
> > > at
> > > > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the angle
> (?)
> > > > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the
> overall
> > > > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a
680F(p).
> > > >
> > > > Moe
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> > > wingspan?
> > > > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay
turbo
> > mod
> > > > can be found?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
A careful man could probably squish a Commander into a 52 foot hangar
without too much trouble ;-).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
>
> Thanks for everyone's response. My dilemma is that my airport has 52 ft
> hangers and 55 ft hangers. The 55 ft hangers are substantially more
> expensive. I was hoping that the winglets did not add allot to the overall
> width. If in fact they do I will opt to go with the larger hanger to
prevent
> hanger rash.
> Thanks,
> Myron Ashley
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum"
<john@vormbaum.com>
> >
> > Hi Myron,
> >
> > The stock wingspan of a 500B is 49 feet 6 inches. Roughly 4" on each
> wingtip
> > are from the stock wingtips. The Aerodyne winglets replace those, and
I'm
> > guessing, with the angle, add another 4" per side for a total wingspan
of
> > about 50 feet 2 inches or so.
> >
> > My experiences looking for hangars are T-hangars, 40-foot hangars (which
> do
> > us Commander guys no good) and >50 foot hangars, which around here at
> least
> > (northern CA) are ridiculously expensive. I highly doubt that the
winglets
> > themselves are going to make a hangar a no-go. A 50-foot hangar leaves
you
> > 3" on each side with the stock wings. You'd need 3 people to pull it in
> > safely, and I'm still betting that you'd bang a wingtip pretty quickly.
> >
> > One thing you might want to be sure of when shopping for hangar space:
> much
> > more than the wingspan, the height of the tail is a limiting factor. Not
> too
> > many non-commercial hangars (again, around here anyway) have enough door
> > height for a 14'5" tail (plus beacon).
> >
> > I gave up. I keep mine tied down outside. The cost of new paint/interior
> > every 7 years or so is still cheaper than 7 years of hangar space where
I
> > live.
> >
> > Regardless, you're going to LOVE your airplane! My 500B is my passion,
and
> > no matter what I've done, I've never managed to use 100% of the
airplane's
> > capability. It truly is an amazing machine.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > /John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > >
> > > Myron,
> > > Congratulations on your purchase!
> > >
> > > The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49
feet.
> > > Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure the
> > > wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights out
> > board
> > > of the winglets?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Moe
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has
> winglets.
> > I
> > > > will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to get
> > > hanger
> > > > space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to
the
> > > > already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find hanger
> > > space.
> > > > If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I
> would
> > > > appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Myron,
> > > > >
> > > > > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add any
> > > length
> > > > at
> > > > > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the
angle
> > (?)
> > > > > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the
> > overall
> > > > > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a
> 680F(p).
> > > > >
> > > > > Moe
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > > > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the overall
> > > > wingspan?
> > > > > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay
> turbo
> > > mod
> > > > > can be found?
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 11/15/2005 9:20:34 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
AAInstalls@aol.com writes:
The improvement is 3-5% but it's really the reduction in fuel flow.
Those are about the numbers I was given. The point I was trying to make was
that even those very large winglets had a very small improvement. If you
operate like the airline with your fleet airborne most of the time, 3% is a
great improvement. If, on the other hand you only fly a thundered hours or so,
3% wont really show up. Also, the small size of the Commander winglet leads
me to believe that little could be accomplished with them. Thanks jb
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 11/15/2005 4:25:42 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
moe@rosspistons.com writes:
My perception is that the landing roll out is longer with the flap gap
seals. What do you think?
Yep, the airplane tends to float more. Probably due to the reduced drag
caused by the reduced lift. If you never visit short strips, it wont matter.
jb
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 500B winglet length |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
The word squish makes me a little uneasy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
>
> A careful man could probably squish a Commander into a 52 foot hangar
> without too much trouble ;-).
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
<mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> >
> > Thanks for everyone's response. My dilemma is that my airport has 52 ft
> > hangers and 55 ft hangers. The 55 ft hangers are substantially more
> > expensive. I was hoping that the winglets did not add allot to the
overall
> > width. If in fact they do I will opt to go with the larger hanger to
> prevent
> > hanger rash.
> > Thanks,
> > Myron Ashley
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum"
> <john@vormbaum.com>
> > >
> > > Hi Myron,
> > >
> > > The stock wingspan of a 500B is 49 feet 6 inches. Roughly 4" on each
> > wingtip
> > > are from the stock wingtips. The Aerodyne winglets replace those, and
> I'm
> > > guessing, with the angle, add another 4" per side for a total wingspan
> of
> > > about 50 feet 2 inches or so.
> > >
> > > My experiences looking for hangars are T-hangars, 40-foot hangars
(which
> > do
> > > us Commander guys no good) and >50 foot hangars, which around here at
> > least
> > > (northern CA) are ridiculously expensive. I highly doubt that the
> winglets
> > > themselves are going to make a hangar a no-go. A 50-foot hangar leaves
> you
> > > 3" on each side with the stock wings. You'd need 3 people to pull it
in
> > > safely, and I'm still betting that you'd bang a wingtip pretty
quickly.
> > >
> > > One thing you might want to be sure of when shopping for hangar space:
> > much
> > > more than the wingspan, the height of the tail is a limiting factor.
Not
> > too
> > > many non-commercial hangars (again, around here anyway) have enough
door
> > > height for a 14'5" tail (plus beacon).
> > >
> > > I gave up. I keep mine tied down outside. The cost of new
paint/interior
> > > every 7 years or so is still cheaper than 7 years of hangar space
where
> I
> > > live.
> > >
> > > Regardless, you're going to LOVE your airplane! My 500B is my passion,
> and
> > > no matter what I've done, I've never managed to use 100% of the
> airplane's
> > > capability. It truly is an amazing machine.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > /John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > >
> > > > Myron,
> > > > Congratulations on your purchase!
> > > >
> > > > The wing span stock on both the 500B and the 680 F(p) is about 49
> feet.
> > > > Hopefully I will be able to get to the airport tonight and measure
the
> > > > wingspan with the winglets. Does your bird have the strobe lights
out
> > > board
> > > > of the winglets?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Moe
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply Moe. I am a new owner of a 500B that has
> > winglets.
> > > I
> > > > > will not be able to get it home for 2-3 weeks and I am trying to
get
> > > > hanger
> > > > > space lined up. I did not know if the winglets added any length to
> the
> > > > > already wide wingspan which would make it even harder to find
hanger
> > > > space.
> > > > > If the stock wingspan of your airplane is the same as the 500B, I
> > would
> > > > > appreciate getting a good measurement from wingtip to wingtip.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe"
<moe@rosspistons.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Myron,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Aerodyne (Commander Aero, Ohio) winglets appear not to add
any
> > > > length
> > > > > at
> > > > > > all. If you need an exact number (at the most outboard of the
> angle
> > > (?)
> > > > > > please advise, and I can go over to the airport and measure the
> > > overall
> > > > > > length, or anything else that you need on N680RR. This is a
> > 680F(p).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Moe
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Myron Ashley" <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Commander-List: 500B winglet length
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley"
> > > > > <mashley2@kc.rr.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > Does anybody know how much, if any, winglets add to the
overall
> > > > > wingspan?
> > > > > > Also, Does anyone know where a operating manual for the Ray Jay
> > turbo
> > > > mod
> > > > > > can be found?
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Myron Ashley
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: <dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
My perception is that the stall speed is reduced and therefore I can
come in over the numbers at a more appropriate speed and height which
makes the overall landing distance shorter and more manageable. The roll
out may be longer but the combined landing and roll out to me appears
shorter.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
YOURTCFG@aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other
questions
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 11/15/2005 4:25:42 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
moe@rosspistons.com writes:
My perception is that the landing roll out is longer with the flap gap
seals. What do you think?
Yep, the airplane tends to float more. Probably due to the reduced
drag
caused by the reduced lift. If you never visit short strips, it wont
matter. jb
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: RRamm52@cs.com
Thanks, JB
Neat post and I concur......
Thanks, Rob
YOURTCFG@aol.com writes:
>
> HI KIDS..
>
> The gap seals do make a difference in the cruse performance on the
> Commander family. I have flown several "before &after" and noticed about a
> 1
> - 4 kt improvement. However, the gap seals reduce the take off and
> obstical
> clearance climb. I installed a set on a 560A many years ago and was
> working
> from a short (1600) foor strip. The degridation in TO performance was
> pronounced. If you look at the ramp built into the flap cutout, it is
> plain to
> see that the air was intended to remain atached and excite the LE of the
> flap.
> Covering this area does infact improve the speed, but at a cost.
> Winglets seem to have a neutral to slightly negative effect on cruse
> performance. At high operating weights and high altitudes where the
> airplane is
> flying at a high angle of attack, their may (?) be some improvement. The
> winglets on the Commander are to small to make any real difference. Look
> at
> the size compared to say a Boeing 737 (about a 3% increase in speed above
> FL
> 350) or Gulfstream and you will see the small size of the Commander winglet
>
> wont change much. I flew only one "B &A" and the airplane was about 2kts
> slower below 8 thousand , about the same above 10K. The main attraction is
>
> asthetic and personaly, I would put up modest degridation in performance,
> they look
> great.
> There are really only two things that truly make airplanes meaningfully
>
> faster. A good GPS (and use it, always GPS direct) and more fuel.
> Virtually
> all other mods make such a small difference that they will probably never
> pay for themselves.
> On another note. I just returned from delivering Jimmy Rodriguez" 500B
>
> to him in San Juan PR. I was home only one day and then back to the
> Caribbean for a 7 day cruse with my wife, yippee!!
> Hope all is well in your "Commanderland" jb
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other questions |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
I liked the "thundered" hours. That's about how it goes nowadays. :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 500B Cruise performance and other
questions
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 11/15/2005 9:20:34 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> AAInstalls@aol.com writes:
>
> The improvement is 3-5% but it's really the reduction in fuel flow.
>
>
> Those are about the numbers I was given. The point I was trying to make
was
> that even those very large winglets had a very small improvement. If you
> operate like the airline with your fleet airborne most of the time, 3%
is a
> great improvement. If, on the other hand you only fly a thundered hours
or so,
> 3% wont really show up. Also, the small size of the Commander winglet
leads
> me to believe that little could be accomplished with them. Thanks jb
>
>
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