Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:32 AM - Commander decent (Moe)
2. 07:55 AM - Re: Commander decent (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 07:57 AM - Re: FLAPS (Moe)
4. 07:57 AM - Re: Commander decent (Tom Fisher)
5. 08:22 AM - Re: Commander decent (CloudCraft@aol.com)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: Commander decent (Brock Lorber)
7. 10:19 AM - Re: Commander decent (YOURTCFG@AOL.COM)
8. 12:05 PM - Re: Commander decent (Moe)
9. 01:27 PM - Re: Commander decent (css nico)
10. 01:47 PM - Re: Commander decent (Moe)
11. 01:55 PM - Re: Commander decent ()
12. 02:15 PM - Re: Commander decent (Moe)
13. 07:06 PM - Slips (Jim Addington)
14. 07:53 PM - Re: FLAPS (Nancy & Roland Gilliam)
15. 07:56 PM - Re: Slips (css nico)
16. 08:11 PM - Re: Slips (Bill Bow)
17. 08:44 PM - Re: Slips (Deneal Schilmeister (Portege))
Message 1
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Subject: | Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Gents,
Thanks for all of the comments on flap extension.
Does anyone have comments on slipping the plane, on final approach, with gear
extended and full flaps below 150 mph?
When making a straight in approach to HHR, in VFR conditions, we must remain at
1,400 (above threshold height) until 2.8 knots from the threshold. In the past,
I have been using rather severe "S" turns, or slipping, or asking the tower
for a left 360 turn in order to get down at a manageable speed. The "S" turns
seem to scare people on the Lowe's parking lot, and the left 360 disrupts the
orderly flow of traffic in the pattern.
Further comment will be greatly appreciated.
Happy New Year Everyone!
Moe Mills
N680RR
680F(p)
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 12/30/2005 9:33:50 A.M. Central Standard Time,
moe@rosspistons.com writes:
When making a straight in approach to HHR, in VFR conditions, we must remain
at 1,400 (above threshold height) until 2.8 knots from the threshold. In
the past, I have been using rather severe "S" turns, or slipping, or asking
the tower for a left 360 turn in order to get down at a manageable speed. The
"S" turns seem to scare people on the Lowe's parking lot, and the left 360
disrupts the orderly flow of traffic in the pattern
Good Morning Moe,
First question, if I may, where is HHR?
As I see your problem, you need to descend at around 500 feet per nautical
mile or 434 ft per statute mile. While it has been a very long time since I
last flew any Twin Commander, I would think that a power off descent rate with
full flap and gear down would result in well over 500 feet per nautical mile.
Most competitive twins will descend around 600 to 650 feet per nautical mile
traveled in landing configuration. Any head wind at all would help.
While I would imagine a simple slip would work very well, wouldn't a low
power slow speed descent also work? What is your desired minimum approach
speed? Do you use knots or statute?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Message 3
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Bill,
The initial problem is convincing the unwashed masses that the airplane is
pressurized. Trying to keep these unwashed types out of the inside of the
plane, I tried showing them the blower and equipment in the rear fuselage,
only to be told that it was merely a fan to blow through the air
conditioner. After allowing them to come inside and view the pressurization
control, some seem to still be a unconvinced.
The FAA registry in some instances does not mention the (p) in the model
information as it was optional equipment, and in some instances it does.
???? Personally, I wish that the designation was 680FP instead of 680F(p),
due to the fact that when typing I can't use the top key board keys without
looking at my hands. This problem is further exacerbated because one must
hold down the shift key with the left pinky while hitting the '(' AND the
')' keys. Wing Commander Gordon in right....life is not simple anywhere.
Regards,
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
----- Original Message -----
From: <BillLeff1@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FLAPS
> --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com
>
> The following is from the Type certification Data Sheet for the 680F
>
> Maneuvering 157 m.p.h. (137 K) True Ind.
> Max. Struc. cruising 230 m.p.h. (200 K) True Ind.
> Never exceed 288 m.p.h. (250 K) True Ind.
> Flaps extended - half 150 m.p.h. (130 K) True Ind.
> Flaps extended - full 136 m.p.h. (118 K) True Ind.
> Landing gear extended 180 m.p.h. (156 K) True Ind.
>
> These are the only limitations that apply to your model.
>
> Before you ask what True Indicated Airspeed is; it is the same as
Calibrated
> Airspeed.
>
> The full flap 129 kt limitation is for the early Turbo Commanders (680T
thru
> 681)
>
> Wait, you have a 680FP. There is no such model. How could that be?
>
> Well, it goes like this: Unlike Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft who had to
> build a special models to pressurize their poorly built aircraft. Ted
Smith built
> the Aero Commander so strong that pressurization was an option!!. See note
5
> from the Type Certification Data Sheet. It is installed per an engineering
> drawing and a Service Information Letter!
>
> NOTE 5:
>
> An optional pressurized version of the Model 680-F
> designated "680-F (Pressurized)" was approved June 29, 1962.
> This model is a standard 680-F incorporating a factory
> modification per Aero Commander Dwg. 610021. Note the
> special required equipment list and the special equipment
> column for this modified 680-F in Revision No. 24 or Service
> Information SI-118.
>
> Cool isn't it. Next time you want to brag about your Aero Commander to the
> unwashed masses who own Cessnas, Pipers, and Beechcraft tell them about
this.
> Let them top that!
>
> By the way the 500A, 500B, 560F and the 680F are all the same airframe.
So,
> any of them could have been pressurized: structurally, that is.
>
> I believe if you look at your Data Plate on the tail , it says 680F not
> 680FP.
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> Bill Leff
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
When I am doing nap of the Earth flying and have to descend rapidly
(non-geared engine) into the next valley I drop my gear and flaps to obtain
a descent rate of 3,000 ft/min @ 120MPH. The aircraft appears to be quite
unstable in the yaw axis, given that, I would not side slip with full flaps.
When I approach the airport I intend to land at I TELL the controllers what
speed and maximum descent rate I am able to maintain and that I will need a
back track once landed to clear the runway. That way they have time to
space other traffic ahead and behind me to accommodate me. Too many times I
have had an aircraft launched right in front of me supposedly on an
immediate take-off requiring me to over shoot.
My local field is now trained to give me room, they advise other traffic
about the "fast moving Commander" (110 MPH) on approach.
Your geared machine deserves respect from the controllers and perhaps they
can handle you more appropriately if they had a heads up of your
requirements.
Tom F.
C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Commander decent
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> Gents,
>
> Thanks for all of the comments on flap extension.
>
> Does anyone have comments on slipping the plane, on final approach, with
gear extended and full flaps below 150 mph?
>
> When making a straight in approach to HHR, in VFR conditions, we must
remain at 1,400 (above threshold height) until 2.8 knots from the threshold.
In the past, I have been using rather severe "S" turns, or slipping, or
asking the tower for a left 360 turn in order to get down at a manageable
speed. The "S" turns seem to scare people on the Lowe's parking lot, and
the left 360 disrupts the orderly flow of traffic in the pattern.
>
> Further comment will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Happy New Year Everyone!
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 30-Dec-05 07:55:45 Pacific Standard Time, BobsV35B@aol.com
writes:
I would think that a power off descent rate with
full flap and gear down would result in well over 500 feet per nautical mile.
Most competitive twins will descend around 600 to 650 feet per nautical mile
traveled in landing configuration.
>>
>>
You're correct, Old Bob, but Moe has a Commander powered by Lycoming
IGSO-540 and power off descents are too expensive to do.
He has the classic problem that pilots based in complex airspace (or steep
valleys) face.
Tom Fisher said no to slips. I've slipped the short body Commanders with
half flaps and gear down and do not remember any bad handling characteristics.
Sounds like a good excuse to go fly. Set a "hard deck" altitude, set up in
approach configuration (or just half flaps) and try it out. Be sure to report
back.
I'm looking at the LOC RWY 25 approach and see that you can cross DEMON at
660', 2.7 nm from the threshold. I take it your 1400' restriction is some
other limitation? Do the local controllers make you adhere to that if you're on
the IFR approach in VFR conditions?
If not, I'd execute the LOC approach all the time. I can see that LAX
controllers may not like the parallels with their airport; the GPS RWY 25 looks
like
a more ATC happy solution, plus your GPS may give you pseudo glideslope.
Any of that a possibility?
Wing Commander Gordon
PS: Bill Leff! Great to see you active on the email net!
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: Brock Lorber <blorber@southwestcirrus.com>
Moe wrote:
>--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
>Gents,
>
>Thanks for all of the comments on flap extension.
>
>Does anyone have comments on slipping the plane, on final approach, with gear
extended and full flaps below 150 mph?
>
>When making a straight in approach to HHR, in VFR conditions, we must remain at
1,400 (above threshold height) until 2.8 knots from the threshold. In the past,
I have been using rather severe "S" turns, or slipping, or asking the tower
for a left 360 turn in order to get down at a manageable speed. The "S" turns
seem to scare people on the Lowe's parking lot, and the left 360 disrupts
the orderly flow of traffic in the pattern.
>
>Further comment will be greatly appreciated.
>
>Happy New Year Everyone!
>
>Moe Mills
>N680RR
>680F(p)
>
>
>
Moe:
I treat every engine the same (geared, direct-drive, normally-aspirated,
turbo'd, ad nauseum). I have two inviolate rules: no more that 2" MAP
change at a time, and the engines produce power any time I'm not using
the brakes. These rules force me to be at least 60 nm ahead of the
airplane or I'd be doing a lot of go-arounds. Therefore, I usually
surprise Towers who aren't familiar with the N-number by approaching the
field at an airspeed they associate with a single-engine commander,
anticipating the slam-dunk on to the runway. On speed at the perch
(100-120 KIAS) and with approach power setting, I've found the 680FL(P)
sticks the touchdown markers from 1,500' and 3 nm every time with full
flaps.
I use HHR to practice landings with students in the Cirrus SR-22. The
turn to final from the freeway requires them to be on-speed (119 KIAS in
that airplane) and still may require a slip. But, more than anything,
the parking garage and the raised surface of the 105 messes with their
heads. So, even if they make a perfect approach from the freeway, or
even slightly high of a 3 degree glide slope, they feel like they are
too low and pull way above the glide slope. They play catch-up the rest
of the way to the runway, and more often than not, end up going around
and trying it from a standard pattern.
I've never had the commander in to HHR, but if I did I'd approach it the
same way as in the Cirrus. Straight-in: stay slow over the freeway,
drop the flaps, and lower the nose to Vfe to burn the altitude.
Parallel to the freeway: drop the flaps and burn as much energy as I
comfortably (for the passengers) can in the turn to final.
Individual results may vary!
Brock
http://www.southwestcirrus.com/n400ch
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
HI MOE.
I keep my commander on a 2400 strip with real 50 foot obstructions on
both ends. I routinely slip the airplane. It slips fairly well. I have only
slipped it with full flaps. No adverse handling characteristics, it recovers
naturally, all by itself. There is no tendency to drop the nose, nor does
it pitch up (like some floatplanes).
I have slipped to an airspeed as low as 60KIAS, although I think the
pitot tube gets blocked a bit in the slip so the speed may have been a little
higher. The only caution is that once slowed, the Commander takes a bit of
encouragement to re accelerate so plan for that. Have fun jb
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
JB,
Thanks for the tip. I have been slipping pretty heavy at 100 MPH with full
flaps. N680RR has dual air speed indicators, with a pitot tube on each
side. Will try to check them against each other on next slipping approach
to see if there is any difference in the upstream and downstream sides.
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> HI MOE.
>
> I keep my commander on a 2400 strip with real 50 foot obstructions on
> both ends. I routinely slip the airplane. It slips fairly well. I have
only
> slipped it with full flaps. No adverse handling characteristics, it
recovers
> naturally, all by itself. There is no tendency to drop the nose, nor
does
> it pitch up (like some floatplanes).
> I have slipped to an airspeed as low as 60KIAS, although I think the
> pitot tube gets blocked a bit in the slip so the speed may have been a
little
> higher. The only caution is that once slowed, the Commander takes a bit
of
> encouragement to re accelerate so plan for that. Have fun jb
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
What's the vertical speed requirement that would cause one to slip, or is it
to avoid throttling back on the engines?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> JB,
>
> Thanks for the tip. I have been slipping pretty heavy at 100 MPH with
full
> flaps. N680RR has dual air speed indicators, with a pitot tube on each
> side. Will try to check them against each other on next slipping approach
> to see if there is any difference in the upstream and downstream sides.
>
> Moe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> >
> > HI MOE.
> >
> > I keep my commander on a 2400 strip with real 50 foot obstructions
on
> > both ends. I routinely slip the airplane. It slips fairly well. I
have
> only
> > slipped it with full flaps. No adverse handling characteristics, it
> recovers
> > naturally, all by itself. There is no tendency to drop the nose, nor
> does
> > it pitch up (like some floatplanes).
> > I have slipped to an airspeed as low as 60KIAS, although I think
the
> > pitot tube gets blocked a bit in the slip so the speed may have been a
> little
> > higher. The only caution is that once slowed, the Commander takes a
bit
> of
> > encouragement to re accelerate so plan for that. Have fun jb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Wing Commander Gordon:
Thank you very much for the reply. As always, your good advice and wise
council is muchly appreciated.
As mentioned in my reply to JB I have been slipping the plane at about 100
mph with gear down and full flaps. Although aggressive rudder action is
required, the aircraft handles well, and the sink rate increases quite
rapidly by slipping.
Running north and south almost directly over DEMON along the 110 Freeway is
a Los Angeles helicopter routing, thus, when flying into HHR VFR there is
the altitude restriction of 1,500 (approx 1,440 above the runway). When the
LOC RWY 25 approach is used, the choppers are held until the aircraft
shooting the approach is clear. On clear days it is much easier to go into
HHR VFR than to go in IFR. To get a "pop up" approach you need to go down
to SLI (Seal Beach VOR). Also, in many instances the LA APPROACH controllers
frequency is so busy that it can take several minutes just to get him to
answer you back. Other than when coming from the south east (San Diego) on
an IFR flight, going into HHR by shooting an IFR approach is most definitely
NOT a time saver. The guys in the HHR tower and LA APPROACH are really a
great group, who have been very nice to me over the years, so I try to
accommodate them as much as is practical.
Regards,
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent
> --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 30-Dec-05 07:55:45 Pacific Standard Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com
> writes:
> I would think that a power off descent rate with
> full flap and gear down would result in well over 500 feet per nautical
mile.
> Most competitive twins will descend around 600 to 650 feet per nautical
mile
> traveled in landing configuration.
> >>
> >>
>
> You're correct, Old Bob, but Moe has a Commander powered by Lycoming
> IGSO-540 and power off descents are too expensive to do.
>
> He has the classic problem that pilots based in complex airspace (or
steep
> valleys) face.
>
> Tom Fisher said no to slips. I've slipped the short body Commanders with
> half flaps and gear down and do not remember any bad handling
characteristics.
>
> Sounds like a good excuse to go fly. Set a "hard deck" altitude, set up
in
> approach configuration (or just half flaps) and try it out. Be sure to
report
> back.
>
> I'm looking at the LOC RWY 25 approach and see that you can cross DEMON at
> 660', 2.7 nm from the threshold. I take it your 1400' restriction is
some
> other limitation? Do the local controllers make you adhere to that if
you're on
> the IFR approach in VFR conditions?
>
> If not, I'd execute the LOC approach all the time. I can see that LAX
> controllers may not like the parallels with their airport; the GPS RWY 25
looks like
> a more ATC happy solution, plus your GPS may give you pseudo glideslope.
>
> Any of that a possibility?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
> PS: Bill Leff! Great to see you active on the email net!
>
> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "" <br549phil@mindspring.com>
With a light load on a cool day I find slipping the easiest way to get the
thing down without unloading the box. There seem to be fewer ATC guys who
know anything about piston and non-pressurized capabilities. (Worked great
in the cub so I figured why not.)
Phil
> [Original Message]
> From: Moe <moe@rosspistons.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 12/30/2005 10:32:20 AM
> Subject: Commander-List: Commander decent
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
>
> Gents,
>
> Thanks for all of the comments on flap extension.
>
> Does anyone have comments on slipping the plane, on final approach, with
gear extended and full flaps below 150 mph?
>
> When making a straight in approach to HHR, in VFR conditions, we must
remain at 1,400 (above threshold height) until 2.8 knots from the
threshold. In the past, I have been using rather severe "S" turns, or
slipping, or asking the tower for a left 360 turn in order to get down at a
manageable speed. The "S" turns seem to scare people on the Lowe's parking
lot, and the left 360 disrupts the orderly flow of traffic in the pattern.
>
> Further comment will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Happy New Year Everyone!
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Commander decent |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
Nico,
The situation with geared engines is that the engines can never be used to
slow the airplane down. The prop should always be driven by the crankshaft.
Also, on the ground the engines should never be run below about 1,200 RPM
(1,500 is better) with the Simmonds fuel pumps. At lower RPM the engines
will surge which loads and unloads the sun gear against the planetary gears.
I won't go into the part about the 5/16" bolts that hold the gear drive to
the drive plate.
Regards,
Moe
----- Original Message -----
From: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
> What's the vertical speed requirement that would cause one to slip, or is
it
> to avoid throttling back on the engines?
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" <moe@rosspistons.com>
> >
> > JB,
> >
> > Thanks for the tip. I have been slipping pretty heavy at 100 MPH with
> full
> > flaps. N680RR has dual air speed indicators, with a pitot tube on each
> > side. Will try to check them against each other on next slipping
approach
> > to see if there is any difference in the upstream and downstream sides.
> >
> > Moe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> > >
> > > HI MOE.
> > >
> > > I keep my commander on a 2400 strip with real 50 foot
obstructions
> on
> > > both ends. I routinely slip the airplane. It slips fairly well. I
> have
> > only
> > > slipped it with full flaps. No adverse handling characteristics, it
> > recovers
> > > naturally, all by itself. There is no tendency to drop the nose, nor
> > does
> > > it pitch up (like some floatplanes).
> > > I have slipped to an airspeed as low as 60KIAS, although I think
> the
> > > pitot tube gets blocked a bit in the slip so the speed may have been
a
> > little
> > > higher. The only caution is that once slowed, the Commander takes a
> bit
> > of
> > > encouragement to re accelerate so plan for that. Have fun jb
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@charter.net>
My two cents on slips.
Be sure to keep the nose below the horizon when doing slips, if you get the
nose up with the airspeed indicators being unreliable as they are and it
does stall the shiny side will not be up for long. The Commander having a
high wing should not give the problems that could come up with the low wing
aircraft, such as the fuselage blocking the upper wing. Yes, I have slipped
low wing planes too, probable as much as any one, but, there can be trouble.
Jim A
N444BD
Message 14
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--> Commander-List message posted by: Nancy & Roland Gilliam <amg@nc.rr.com>
Thanks Bill for emailing me direct on the 500 and 500 A differences.
Could the 500 airframe also be pressurized structurally? Just a
question, in case someone asked.
Roland
BillLeff1@aol.com wrote:
>--> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com
>
>The following is from the Type certification Data Sheet for the 680F
>
> Maneuvering 157 m.p.h. (137 K) True Ind.
>Max. Struc. cruising 230 m.p.h. (200 K) True Ind.
>Never exceed 288 m.p.h. (250 K) True Ind.
>Flaps extended - half 150 m.p.h. (130 K) True Ind.
>Flaps extended - full 136 m.p.h. (118 K) True Ind.
>Landing gear extended 180 m.p.h. (156 K) True Ind.
>
>These are the only limitations that apply to your model.
>
>Before you ask what True Indicated Airspeed is; it is the same as Calibrated
>Airspeed.
>
>The full flap 129 kt limitation is for the early Turbo Commanders (680T thru
>681)
>
>Wait, you have a 680FP. There is no such model. How could that be?
>
>Well, it goes like this: Unlike Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft who had to
>build a special models to pressurize their poorly built aircraft. Ted Smith built
>the Aero Commander so strong that pressurization was an option!!. See note 5
>from the Type Certification Data Sheet. It is installed per an engineering
>drawing and a Service Information Letter!
>
>NOTE 5:
>
> An optional pressurized version of the Model 680-F
>designated "680-F (Pressurized)" was approved June 29, 1962.
>This model is a standard 680-F incorporating a factory
>modification per Aero Commander Dwg. 610021. Note the
>special required equipment list and the special equipment
>column for this modified 680-F in Revision No. 24 or Service
>Information SI-118.
>
>Cool isn't it. Next time you want to brag about your Aero Commander to the
>unwashed masses who own Cessnas, Pipers, and Beechcraft tell them about this.
>Let them top that!
>
>By the way the 500A, 500B, 560F and the 680F are all the same airframe. So,
>any of them could have been pressurized: structurally, that is.
>
>I believe if you look at your Data Plate on the tail , it says 680F not
>680FP.
>
>Happy New Year!
>
>Bill Leff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
I cannot remember ever having had a need to slip my straight 500 (which I
flew for about 1,000 hours - measly compared to what some of you guys have
spent in the front office), but then again, one could hang full flaps and
gear out, nose her over and fall out of the sky like a brick. The few hours
I spent flying a 680 - now let me get this right - (P), I had ample time to
keep positive thrust in regular descents, so no need there.
It never dawned on me that a slip should or should not be attempted, which
is why I value this group because there is always something new to learn
somewhere. From a gut-feel stance, I would have been hesitant to attempt a
slip for fear of the large wing putting the tail in turbulence or exposing
the large tail to undue side-ways forces. Sudden high rudder inputs
apparently caused structural failure in a large jet reported not too long
ago. Do I recall that correctly? Apparently I would have been unduly
cautious. What a machine!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@charter.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Slips
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington"
<jtaddington@charter.net>
>
>
> My two cents on slips.
> Be sure to keep the nose below the horizon when doing slips, if you get
the
> nose up with the airspeed indicators being unreliable as they are and it
> does stall the shiny side will not be up for long. The Commander having a
> high wing should not give the problems that could come up with the low
wing
> aircraft, such as the fuselage blocking the upper wing. Yes, I have
slipped
> low wing planes too, probable as much as any one, but, there can be
trouble.
>
> Jim A
> N444BD
>
>
Message 16
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
". Sudden high rudder inputs apparently caused structural failure in a large
jet reported not too long ago. Do I recall that correctly? Apparently I
would have been unduly cautious. What a machine!"
Nico, the rudders only break off on "Hugo" Jets(AirBus). I know pilots who
slipped Stretch DC-8s. The tail didn't break off and the fuselage did not
break or bend (not permanently).
bilbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of css nico
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Slips
--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
I cannot remember ever having had a need to slip my straight 500 (which I
flew for about 1,000 hours - measly compared to what some of you guys have
spent in the front office), but then again, one could hang full flaps and
gear out, nose her over and fall out of the sky like a brick. The few hours
I spent flying a 680 - now let me get this right - (P), I had ample time to
keep positive thrust in regular descents, so no need there.
It never dawned on me that a slip should or should not be attempted, which
is why I value this group because there is always something new to learn
somewhere. From a gut-feel stance, I would have been hesitant to attempt a
slip for fear of the large wing putting the tail in turbulence or exposing
the large tail to undue side-ways forces. Sudden high rudder inputs
apparently caused structural failure in a large jet reported not too long
ago. Do I recall that correctly? Apparently I would have been unduly
cautious. What a machine!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@charter.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Slips
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington"
<jtaddington@charter.net>
>
>
> My two cents on slips.
> Be sure to keep the nose below the horizon when doing slips, if you get
the
> nose up with the airspeed indicators being unreliable as they are and it
> does stall the shiny side will not be up for long. The Commander having a
> high wing should not give the problems that could come up with the low
wing
> aircraft, such as the fuselage blocking the upper wing. Yes, I have
slipped
> low wing planes too, probable as much as any one, but, there can be
trouble.
>
> Jim A
> N444BD
>
>
Message 17
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Deneal Schilmeister (Portege)" <deneals@sbcglobal.net>
Of course the Commanders' tails are not made of plasti...err "composites"
___________________________
Deneal Schilmeister
St. Louis - Cincinnati
1997 SL500
http://homepage.mac.com/deneals/SL500.htm
http://homepage.mac.com/deneals/Sites/My_Commanders.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Bill Bow
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Slips
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
". Sudden high rudder inputs apparently caused structural failure in a large
jet reported not too long ago. Do I recall that correctly? Apparently I
would have been unduly cautious. What a machine!"
Nico, the rudders only break off on "Hugo" Jets(AirBus). I know pilots who
slipped Stretch DC-8s. The tail didn't break off and the fuselage did not
break or bend (not permanently).
bilbo
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