---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/02/06: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:09 AM - Re: Slips / Rudder Pulley Brackets (W J R HAMILTON) 2. 05:57 AM - Re: Slips / Rudder Pulley Brackets (Steven) 3. 08:20 AM - Re: Slips () 4. 11:17 AM - Re: FLAPS (Bert Berry) 5. 04:07 PM - Re: Commander decent (Bert Berry) 6. 04:28 PM - Re: Commander decent (Ben Baltrusaitis) 7. 04:29 PM - Geared engined Commanders (Barry Collman) 8. 04:40 PM - Re: Commander decent (Bert Berry) 9. 04:46 PM - Re: Geared engined Commanders (Bert Berry) 10. 07:40 PM - Re: Geared engined Commanders (CloudCraft@aol.com) 11. 08:09 PM - Re: Geared engined Commanders (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 12. 08:10 PM - Re: Geared engined Commanders (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 13. 08:17 PM - MOLLY (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 14. 08:29 PM - Re: MOLLY (COMMANDER560@cs.com) 15. 09:13 PM - Re: MOLLY (John Vormbaum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:26 AM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: Slips / Rudder Pulley Brackets --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON Steve, My 500A (#1274) is the same, and it sure is hard to get at, So far I am just monitoring, while a work out a doable repair scheme. I also have the "standard"crack in the nose wheel support structure, where the shaft #5750039-11 and bearings #SF1301-1 reside, but at least this will be a tad easier to repair. Regards, Bill Hamilton At 01:14 2/01/2006, you wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: "Steven" > >Good, I'm not the only one to give the rudder a little boot on final >sometimes. Doesn't slip like a Cub, but gets the job done and I don't have >to mess with power. We need a steeper approach than standard at home base. > >Speaking of rudders, we noticed something last annual that was really tough >to see. On the bulkhead ahead of the pilot's feet (forgot the number) are >two rudder pulleys on either side of the airframe. They are a bitch to get >at. After pulling the side nose inspection panel off, we noticed a 1/4 inch >long crack at the top of the rudder pulley bracket. It takes some work, but >we also saw the same crack on the 'back' side of the bracket. > >Since we saw it on the one bracket, we took a real hard look at the other >side and found the same two cracks on the opposite side pulley brackets. The >airframe's got about 8000 hours on it, and it is used for survey work where >rudder is used often to correct yaw while on flightlines. Aircraft has been >indoors for at least 20 years, maybe longer. These brackets are a bear to >get at. It's one of the few places on the Commander where I thought it could >have been made of a heavier gauge. > >Talk about rudders and slipping got me to remembering this. I'd be >interested in hearing if anyone else has seen the same. > >Steve > > CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net. & . This message is intended for and should only be used by the addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information.If you are not the intended recipient any use distribution,disclosure or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.Confidentiality and legal privilege attached to this communication are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery to you.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately to Australia 61 (0)408 876 526 Dolores capitis non fero. Eos do. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:27 AM PST US From: "Steven" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Slips / Rudder Pulley Brackets --> Commander-List message posted by: "Steven" Good morning Bill, The four cracks were nearly identical in length on ours, and we're monitoring also. We did put a tiny stop-drill on each, but seeing as they cracked to a certain point and no further, we're wondering if they perhaps become somewhat stable over time once that intital crack forms? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "W J R HAMILTON" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Slips / Rudder Pulley Brackets > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON > > > Steve, > My 500A (#1274) is the same, and it sure is hard to get at, So far I > am just monitoring, while a work out a doable repair scheme. > I also have the "standard"crack in the nose wheel support structure, > where the shaft #5750039-11 and bearings #SF1301-1 reside, but at > least this will be a tad easier to repair. > Regards, > Bill Hamilton > > > At 01:14 2/01/2006, you wrote: >>--> Commander-List message posted by: "Steven" >> >>Good, I'm not the only one to give the rudder a little boot on final >>sometimes. Doesn't slip like a Cub, but gets the job done and I don't have >>to mess with power. We need a steeper approach than standard at home base. >> >>Speaking of rudders, we noticed something last annual that was really >>tough >>to see. On the bulkhead ahead of the pilot's feet (forgot the number) are >>two rudder pulleys on either side of the airframe. They are a bitch to get >>at. After pulling the side nose inspection panel off, we noticed a 1/4 >>inch >>long crack at the top of the rudder pulley bracket. It takes some work, >>but >>we also saw the same crack on the 'back' side of the bracket. >> >>Since we saw it on the one bracket, we took a real hard look at the other >>side and found the same two cracks on the opposite side pulley brackets. >>The >>airframe's got about 8000 hours on it, and it is used for survey work >>where >>rudder is used often to correct yaw while on flightlines. Aircraft has >>been >>indoors for at least 20 years, maybe longer. These brackets are a bear to >>get at. It's one of the few places on the Commander where I thought it >>could >>have been made of a heavier gauge. >> >>Talk about rudders and slipping got me to remembering this. I'd be >>interested in hearing if anyone else has seen the same. >> >>Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE > W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet > Services and Warbirds.Net. & . > This message is intended for and should only be used by the > addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged > information.If you are not the intended recipient any use > distribution,disclosure or copying of this message is strictly > prohibited.Confidentiality and legal privilege attached to this > communication are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken > delivery to you.If you have received this message in error, please > notify us immediately to Australia 61 (0)408 876 526 > Dolores capitis non fero. Eos do. > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:01 AM PST US From: "" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Slips --> Commander-List message posted by: "" In fact, my first trip back to MD80 training after the airbus we had quite an argument over rudder use. Prior to the entrail restrictions behind 757s, at DFW and elsewhere, before the guy ahead of you had completed his rotaion they would clear you for takeoff which put you right into the rather nasty vortecies generated by the 757. The width of the vortex was such that it completely blanked out the MD80 ailerons. So right after T.O. (happened twice to me) you are in an uncommanded ninety degree bank with full opposite aileron and still rolling. Your only effective controll is the rudder. My feeling was that Boeing and the attorneys were going to cause more trouble by discouraging it's use than by teaching it's proper use. Phil > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 1/1/2006 12:54:55 PM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Slips > > --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com > > I was an instructor at TWA (then owned by American) when American Flight > 587. To keep this short, it was determined that after encountering turbulence > from a 747 in front of it, the flying pilot over controlled the A300 aircraft > in the yaw axis. > > This over controlling of the rudder by rapid direction reversal is called a > Rudder Doublet. Contrary to popular belief, transport aircraft are only > required to demonstrate full travel of the rudder (at or below maneuvering speed) > from neutral to full deflection then back to neutral. Demonstration of full > deflection from stop to stop is not required! > > Boeing put out a great paper on the subject and proudly pointed out that > their aircraft have never had structural problems with their tails because of > the extra design margins in the Boeing Aircraft vs. their French competitors > aircraft. > > Proper use of the rudder became a priority in training after that. > > Bill Leff > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:17:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: FLAPS From: "Bert Berry" --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" Thanks Bill I wondered what that was all about. We had the first 681 built SN 6001 it was a good machine but noisy. Thanks Bert -----Original Message----- From: BillLeff1@aol.com To:commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FLAPS --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com Around 1979 Commander decided to reduce the price of the 690B by removing some of the standard equipment such as the co-pilot's HSI. They then lowered the price about $100K. The B-II was the completely equipped, higher priced, version. Systems and mechanically they are the same. Rockwell did the same thin when they introduced the 681B. It was just a striped down 681 to lower the cost. Bill Leff bertberry1@aol.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent From: "Bert Berry" --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" Which Commanders came standard with geared engines? Bert -----Original Message----- From: "Moe" To: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Nico, The situation with geared engines is that the engines can never be used to slow the airplane down. The prop should always be driven by the crankshaft. Also, on the ground the engines should never be run below about 1,200 RPM (1,500 is better) with the Simmonds fuel pumps. At lower RPM the engines will surge which loads and unloads the sun gear against the planetary gears. I won't go into the part about the 5/16" bolts that hold the gear drive to the drive plate. Regards, Moe ----- Original Message ----- From: "css nico" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" > > What's the vertical speed requirement that would cause one to slip, or is it > to avoid throttling back on the engines? > Nico > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Moe" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > > > JB, > > > > Thanks for the tip. I have been slipping pretty heavy at 100 MPH with > full > > flaps. N680RR has dual air speed indicators, with a pitot tube on each > > side. Will try to check them against each other on next slipping approach > > to see if there is any difference in the upstream and downstream sides. > > > > Moe > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > > > > HI MOE. > > > > > > I keep my commander on a 2400 strip with real 50 foot obstructions > on > > > both ends. I routinely slip the airplane. It slips fairly well. I > have > > only > > > slipped it with full flaps. No adverse handling characteristics, it > > recovers > > > naturally, all by itself. There is no tendency to drop the nose, nor > > does > > > it pitch up (like some floatplanes). > > > I have slipped to an airspeed as low as 60KIAS, although I think > the > > > pitot tube gets blocked a bit in the slip so the speed may have been a > > little > > > higher. The only caution is that once slowed, the Commander takes a > bit > > of > > > encouragement to re accelerate so plan for that. Have fun jb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bertberry1@aol.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:20 PM PST US From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" Bert, Here is a page I use to compare models: http://www.aerocommander.com/aircraft.asp Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Berry To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" Which Commanders came standard with geared engines? Bert ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:27 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Commander-List: Geared engined Commanders --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" Hi Bert, I'm hoping this list of geared-engined Commanders (standard, ex-factory) is complete.......... Geared: 520; 560; 560A; 560A(HC); 560E. Geared & Supercharged: 680; 680E; 720. Geared & Fuel Injected: 560F. Geared, Supercharged & Fuel Injected: 680F; 680F(P); 680FL; 680FLP; 685. ........but if it isn't, I'm absolutely certain that somebody will shout - LOUDLY! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Berry" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" | | Which Commanders came standard with geared engines? | | Bert | -----Original Message----- | From: "Moe" | Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:12:55 | To: | Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | | --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" | | Nico, | | The situation with geared engines is that the engines can never be used to | slow the airplane down. The prop should always be driven by the crankshaft. | Also, on the ground the engines should never be run below about 1,200 RPM | (1,500 is better) with the Simmonds fuel pumps. At lower RPM the engines | will surge which loads and unloads the sun gear against the planetary gears. | I won't go into the part about the 5/16" bolts that hold the gear drive to | the drive plate. | | Regards, | | Moe | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "css nico" | To: | Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | | | > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" | | > | > What's the vertical speed requirement that would cause one to slip, or is | it | > to avoid throttling back on the engines? | > Nico | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Moe" | > To: | > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | > | > | > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" | > > | > > JB, | > > | > > Thanks for the tip. I have been slipping pretty heavy at 100 MPH with | > full | > > flaps. N680RR has dual air speed indicators, with a pitot tube on each | > > side. Will try to check them against each other on next slipping | approach | > > to see if there is any difference in the upstream and downstream sides. | > > | > > Moe | > > ----- Original Message ----- | > > From: | > > To: | > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | > > | > > | > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com | > > > | > > > HI MOE. | > > > | > > > I keep my commander on a 2400 strip with real 50 foot | obstructions | > on | > > > both ends. I routinely slip the airplane. It slips fairly well. I | > have | > > only | > > > slipped it with full flaps. No adverse handling characteristics, it | > > recovers | > > > naturally, all by itself. There is no tendency to drop the nose, nor | > > does | > > > it pitch up (like some floatplanes). | > > > I have slipped to an airspeed as low as 60KIAS, although I think | > the | > > > pitot tube gets blocked a bit in the slip so the speed may have been | a | > > little | > > > higher. The only caution is that once slowed, the Commander takes a | > bit | > > of | > > > encouragement to re accelerate so plan for that. Have fun jb | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | | | | | | | | | | | | | | bertberry1@aol.com | | | | | | | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent From: "Bert Berry" --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" Thanks Ben -----Original Message----- From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" To: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent --> Commander-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" Bert, Here is a page I use to compare models: http://www.aerocommander.com/aircraft.asp Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Berry To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" Which Commanders came standard with geared engines? Bert bertberry1@aol.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Geared engined Commanders From: "Bert Berry" --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" Thanks Barry, I wonder how the K seriers Cont. That were put on the later 685's would have worked on the 680FLP? Bert -----Original Message----- From: "Barry Collman" To: Subject: Commander-List: Geared engined Commanders --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" Hi Bert, I'm hoping this list of geared-engined Commanders (standard, ex-factory) is complete.......... Geared: 520; 560; 560A; 560A(HC); 560E. Geared & Supercharged: 680; 680E; 720. Geared & Fuel Injected: 560F. Geared, Supercharged & Fuel Injected: 680F; 680F(P); 680FL; 680FLP; 685. ........but if it isn't, I'm absolutely certain that somebody will shout - LOUDLY! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Berry" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" | | Which Commanders came standard with geared engines? | | Bert | -----Original Message----- | From: "Moe" | Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:12:55 | To: | Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | | --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" | | Nico, | | The situation with geared engines is that the engines can never be used to | slow the airplane down. The prop should always be driven by the crankshaft. | Also, on the ground the engines should never be run below about 1,200 RPM | (1,500 is better) with the Simmonds fuel pumps. At lower RPM the engines | will surge which loads and unloads the sun gear against the planetary gears. | I won't go into the part about the 5/16" bolts that hold the gear drive to | the drive plate. | | Regards, | | Moe | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "css nico" | To: | Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | | | > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" | | > | > What's the vertical speed requirement that would cause one to slip, or is | it | > to avoid throttling back on the engines? | > Nico | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Moe" | > To: | > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | > | > | > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" | > > | > > JB, | > > | > > Thanks for the tip. I have been slipping pretty heavy at 100 MPH with | > full | > > flaps. N680RR has dual air speed indicators, with a pitot tube on each | > > side. Will try to check them against each other on next slipping | approach | > > to see if there is any difference in the upstream and downstream sides. | > > | > > Moe | > > ----- Original Message ----- | > > From: | > > To: | > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander decent | > > | > > | > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com | > > > | > > > HI MOE. | > > > | > > > I keep my commander on a 2400 strip with real 50 foot | obstructions | > on | > > > both ends. I routinely slip the airplane. It slips fairly well. I | > have | > > only | > > > slipped it with full flaps. No adverse handling characteristics, it | > > recovers | > > > naturally, all by itself. There is no tendency to drop the nose, nor | > > does | > > > it pitch up (like some floatplanes). | > > > I have slipped to an airspeed as low as 60KIAS, although I think | > the | > > > pitot tube gets blocked a bit in the slip so the speed may have been | a | > > little | > > > higher. The only caution is that once slowed, the Commander takes a | > bit | > > of | > > > encouragement to re accelerate so plan for that. Have fun jb | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | | | | | | | | | | | | | | bertberry1@aol.com | | | | | | | | | | | | bertberry1@aol.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:00 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Geared engined Commanders --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 02-Jan-06 16:47:12 Pacific Standard Time, bertberry1@aol.com writes: I wonder how the K seriers Cont. That were put on the later 685's would have worked on the 680FLP? >>> >>> They would have consumed the same 3 cylinders per year just like they do on the AC-685 ... Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:13 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Geared engined Commanders --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/2/2006 4:30:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: ........but if it isn't, I'm absolutely certain that somebody will shout - LOUDLY! Well done "Sir" Barry!! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:29 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Geared engined Commanders --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/2/2006 4:47:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bertberry1@aol.com writes: I wonder how the K seriers Cont. That were put on the later 685's would have worked on the 680FLP? Just a poorly as they did on the 685. The problem was the propeller. They never created a proper propeller for the 425HP Cont. jb ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:07 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: MOLLY --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com It is with great sadness that I report Sue and I lost our wonderful Wire Fox Terrier, Molly, on Christmas day. She was only 8 years old. She died in our arms of cancer. Molly (short for "Chromoly") was a wonderful, smart, saucy, sassy dear friend who had spent more time in Commanders than many who own them, and we miss her deeply. Those of you who knew her know what I mean. God Bless all of our pets this night. jb ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:24 PM PST US From: COMMANDER560@cs.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: MOLLY --> Commander-List message posted by: COMMANDER560@cs.com JB, sorry about your loss, we have many family members other than humans, seven dogs, one cat, feel sorry for your loss. Joe Shepherd ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:15 PM PST US From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: MOLLY --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" Jim, Sue, Our thoughts go out to you. The loss of a member of your family at such a young age is a tragedy. All us Dog People understand....most especially those of us with dogs who are Commander People as well. I'm sure that Molly knew just how much she was loved. /John & Sarah ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: MOLLY > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > It is with great sadness that I report Sue and I lost our wonderful Wire Fox > Terrier, Molly, on Christmas day. She was only 8 years old. She died in > our arms of cancer. Molly (short for "Chromoly") was a wonderful, smart, > saucy, sassy dear friend who had spent more time in Commanders than many who own > them, and we miss her deeply. Those of you who knew her know what I mean. > God Bless all of our pets this night. jb > >