---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/17/06: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:30 AM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (Barry Collman) 2. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (Nancy & Roland Gilliam) 3. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (Jerry Sprayberry) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (Bert Berry) 5. 07:17 AM - Re: 500B hydraulic pump parts (Donnie Rose) 6. 07:29 AM - Aircraft Jacks (Tom Bijou) 7. 10:46 AM - Re: Shrike nose (N395V) 8. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (BillLeff1@aol.com) 9. 02:30 PM - Re: Aircraft Jacks (Jody Pillatzki) 10. 05:33 PM - Re: Shrike nose (jetprop) 11. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose () 12. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (Moe) 13. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (Seth) 14. 06:38 PM - gap seals (Victor C. Rupert) 15. 10:00 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 16. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 17. 10:04 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (YOURTCFG@aol.com) 18. 10:16 PM - Re: Re: Shrike nose (YOURTCFG@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:30:39 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" Hi Tylor, No, I can't! Vortex Generators is an item I don't track. I do recall seeing a few Forms 337 for their installation, but to find them again......... Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tylor Hall" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:06 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose | --> Commander-List message posted by: Tylor Hall | | | Has anyone tried to add Vortex Generators on a field approval? | | There is one 500B that has them on it and I was told that they were a | great help in lowering approach speeds and lower single engine | control speed. They were installed on a one time STC. | Sir Berry can tell us who has them. | | Tylor Hall | | On Jan 16, 2006, at 7:19 PM, YOURTCFG@aol.com wrote: | | > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com | > | > | > In a message dated 1/16/2006 5:36:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, | > BillLeff1@aol.com writes: | > | > Flap gap seals actually improve takeoff performance even though | > they close | > off the gap somewhat. | > | > | > That is not true:-) I have empirical knowledge of this. I | > operated from a | > very short (1600) strip at 2500 ft above sea level. After | > installing the gap | > seals, the TO (and landing) performance suffered noticeably. In | > fact, I was | > so disappointed that I never painted the gap seals, wondering if I | > might | > remove them. They do however give the advertised increase in | > speed. If you | > always fly from a long (3000 ft) I recommend them. jb | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:35 AM PST US From: Nancy & Roland Gilliam Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: Nancy & Roland Gilliam Hello all, Try landshorter.com. Roland Barry Collman wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" > >Hi Tylor, > >No, I can't! Vortex Generators is an item I don't track. I do recall seeing a >few Forms 337 for their installation, but to find them again......... > >Best Regards, >Barry > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tylor Hall" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:06 AM >Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose > > >| --> Commander-List message posted by: Tylor Hall >| >| >| Has anyone tried to add Vortex Generators on a field approval? >| >| There is one 500B that has them on it and I was told that they were a >| great help in lowering approach speeds and lower single engine >| control speed. They were installed on a one time STC. >| Sir Berry can tell us who has them. >| >| Tylor Hall >| >| On Jan 16, 2006, at 7:19 PM, YOURTCFG@aol.com wrote: >| >| > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com >| > >| > >| > In a message dated 1/16/2006 5:36:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >| > BillLeff1@aol.com writes: >| > >| > Flap gap seals actually improve takeoff performance even though >| > they close >| > off the gap somewhat. >| > >| > >| > That is not true:-) I have empirical knowledge of this. I >| > operated from a >| > very short (1600) strip at 2500 ft above sea level. After >| > installing the gap >| > seals, the TO (and landing) performance suffered noticeably. In >| > fact, I was >| > so disappointed that I never painted the gap seals, wondering if I >| > might >| > remove them. They do however give the advertised increase in >| > speed. If you >| > always fly from a long (3000 ft) I recommend them. jb >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:31 AM PST US From: "Jerry Sprayberry" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jerry Sprayberry" I hate to get into this one, However, I have Pictures of N198JW 50FT. in the air, 1000FT from start of take-off from my 1900 FT grass strip 800 Ft Elevation. I can't complain about that performance. My Two Cent's worth JRS. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > In a message dated 1/16/2006 5:36:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > BillLeff1@aol.com writes: > > Flap gap seals actually improve takeoff performance even though they > close > off the gap somewhat. > > > That is not true:-) I have empirical knowledge of this. I operated from > a > very short (1600) strip at 2500 ft above sea level. After installing the > gap > seals, the TO (and landing) performance suffered noticeably. In fact, I > was > so disappointed that I never painted the gap seals, wondering if I might > remove them. They do however give the advertised increase in speed. If > you > always fly from a long (3000 ft) I recommend them. jb > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose From: "Bert Berry" --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bert Berry" Hey JB, Maybe the magic doesn't work until you paint them. Bert -----Original Message----- From: "Jerry Sprayberry" To: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jerry Sprayberry" I hate to get into this one, However, I have Pictures of N198JW 50FT. in the air, 1000FT from start of take-off from my 1900 FT grass strip 800 Ft Elevation. I can't complain about that performance. My Two Cent's worth JRS. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com > > > In a message dated 1/16/2006 5:36:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > BillLeff1@aol.com writes: > > Flap gap seals actually improve takeoff performance even though they > close > off the gap somewhat. > > > That is not true:-) I have empirical knowledge of this. I operated from > a > very short (1600) strip at 2500 ft above sea level. After installing the > gap > seals, the TO (and landing) performance suffered noticeably. In fact, I > was > so disappointed that I never painted the gap seals, wondering if I might > remove them. They do however give the advertised increase in speed. If > you > always fly from a long (3000 ft) I recommend them. jb > > > bertberry1@aol.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:41 AM PST US From: Donnie Rose Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B hydraulic pump parts --> Commander-List message posted by: Donnie Rose Thank you Myron. Donnie --- Myron Ashley wrote: > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Myron Ashley" > > > > Aircraft accessories of oklahoma are the experts for > the hydrualic pumps. > 800-255-9924 > > Good Luck, > Myron Ashley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Donnie Rose" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:07 PM > Subject: Commander-List: 500B hydraulic pump parts > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: Donnie Rose > > > > > Dear members, does anyone have any info on the > below > > topic? > > Thank you in advance... > > > > > > > > > > Good morning Mr. Tower, > > You had offered you help earlier in the > Commander > > search for things and now I surely need it. I am > in > > need of an oil seal for one of the main hydraulic > > pumps in my 1964 500B. My serial number is in the > > upper bracket [1300-] and the pump was > manufactured by > > Eastern Industries, Hamden, CT. Model number of > the > > pump is 105HBG-211B, part 4790222-501. > > The seal is on the input shaft and is in itself > unique > > because of it's unusual depth of .690 on the outer > > case housing a double seal. I have found two > smaller > > seals to "stack" in the originals place but would > > prefer OEM config. These two seals were obtained > from > > Motion Industries with no other options. > > I sure hope you or one of the other members of > the > > chat group can help Mr. Tower, I have exhausted > all of > > my options. > > > > Best Regards, > > Donnie Rose > > > > > > Donnie Rose > > 205/492-8444 > > > > > > > > Donnie Rose > > 205/492-8444 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:48 AM PST US From: "Tom Bijou" Subject: Commander-List: Aircraft Jacks --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Bijou" After years of operating and maintaining various Twin Commanders I am stepping down to a Cirrus SR22 (to be supplemented by a Diamond Twin Star in December). I loved the aircraft, but 75gph is a lot of fuel to burn to move one or two people around. The point of all this is I have a set of jacks, of the correct size for high wing aircraft like commanders that I no longer need. They are for sale for $500.00. Located at ADS in the Dallas area. 8 ton capacity and about a year old. I can be reached at 800-500-1650 if anyone is interested. Tom Bijou ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:59 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose From: "N395V" --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" It is my impression that an STC requires demonstration and documentation of claims as well as demonstration and documentation of adverse affects of the modification in question. Below is the link to the flap gap seal page of Aircenters website and an excerpt from that page stating what the flap gap seals will do. http://www.aircenterinc.com/products_seals.php WHY? Increases Speed, Rate Of Climb, & Roll Rate Less Drag Increase In Fuel Efficiency Cosmetics PRICE OF KIT: $1,800 PMA: Yes STC NO: SA2903SW The Flap Gap Seals are installed on the top and bottom of the wings. There is a large opening between the flaps and the bottom of the wing. The Flap Gap Seal will seal this opening between the top and bottom of the flaps. When the flaps are in the up position, lifting air pressure can no longer escape through this gap, thus the increased lift improves rate of climb and performance. Our Flap Gap Seal STC is the same type as you find on the Turbo Commanders. The Flap Gap Seals increase overall airspeed by six knots. Installation of the Flap Gap Seals will greatly improve slow speed roll control, resulting in better short field take-off and landing capabilities. Our STC is approved for all 500 and 600 series Twin Commanders. The kit can be installed in two days. I suppose that "improved short field takeoff capabilities" is open to interpretation but it suggests to me shorter takeoff. My suspicion is that the amount of increased or decreased takeoff distance is negated by pilot technique in either direction and is a small number when measured in feet so as to make it inconsequential to the original poster of the nose question. If indeed the seals do increase takeoff distance by a small amount you probably shouldn't be taking off from that field in the first place. I understand that using the seals the standard technique is to not use flaps. This is immensley beneficial in the event of engine loss at a critical moment in that it is one less item to have to clean up. Thus one could argue that the gap seals add a safety factor. As the owner of the STC Gary should be able to tell us exactly the Takeoff difference with the seals for each model. [/url] -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4741#4741 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:08 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com My 560F gets off the ground better since I installed them. I did not see much speed difference Bill Leff ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:45 PM PST US From: "Jody Pillatzki" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Aircraft Jacks --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jody Pillatzki" Tim Sold, call me tonight (701)640-0113. Jody -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Bijou Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: Commander-List: Aircraft Jacks --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Bijou" After years of operating and maintaining various Twin Commanders I am stepping down to a Cirrus SR22 (to be supplemented by a Diamond Twin Star in December). I loved the aircraft, but 75gph is a lot of fuel to burn to move one or two people around. The point of all this is I have a set of jacks, of the correct size for high wing aircraft like commanders that I no longer need. They are for sale for $500.00. Located at ADS in the Dallas area. 8 ton capacity and about a year old. I can be reached at 800-500-1650 if anyone is interested. Tom Bijou ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:46 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose From: "jetprop" --> Commander-List message posted by: "jetprop" amg(at)nc.rr.com wrote: > Hello, > > Anyone know how much a Shrike nose cost, and who sells and installs them??? Hi - Bruce Byerly here - just wanted to introduce myself. I've been lurking around the board for awhile now -- you guys seem to be having fun :D I've grown up with Commanders and we have had a fiberglass nose cut from an airframe for years. It's in good shape but will need to be removed from the original structure. It's setup for a radome, but the radome has since found a home. Let me know if you're interested. 309-397-2525 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4817#4817 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:35 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: Installation of flap gap seals on my 500 Shrike improved my landings by 100% as it improved the slow speed handling and allowed it to float. I am now able to reduce my over the numbers speed by 15 mph without worrying about stalling and flopping down. By being able to slow down safely I can reduce my ground roll significantly and operate into shorter fields without burning out my brakes. As far as take off performance, and this is anecdotal, I feel it comes off the ground sooner due to improved lift. I cost me $1800.00 for the kit and 32 hours labor but I wouldn't fly without them. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com My 560F gets off the ground better since I installed them. I did not see much speed difference Bill Leff ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:18 PM PST US From: "Moe" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" Regarding the Flap Gap Seals, There is no doubt in my mind that flap gap seals do degrade the distance before rotation. I can't remember exactly how much (I think that it is about 75 feet) but if anyone wants to know exactly, I will stop by the plane and pick up my figures. This comes from taking off and landing at the same airport (HHR) for several years in the same plane with the conditions being about the same every day. I had the flap gap seals and winglets added at the same time. The performance degraded enough that I changed my "you should rotate at this point" when taking off references. Regards, Moe N680RR 680F(p) ----- Original Message ----- From: "jetprop" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:33 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose > --> Commander-List message posted by: "jetprop" > > > amg(at)nc.rr.com wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Anyone know how much a Shrike nose cost, and who sells and installs them??? > > > Hi - Bruce Byerly here - just wanted to introduce myself. I've been lurking around the board for awhile now -- you guys seem to be having fun :D > > I've grown up with Commanders and we have had a fiberglass nose cut from an airframe for years. It's in good shape but will need to be removed from the original structure. It's setup for a radome, but the radome has since found a home. Let me know if you're interested. > > 309-397-2525 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4817#4817 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:55 PM PST US From: Seth Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: Seth It seems to make sense to me that adding the gap seals will eliminate any intended or unintended slotted effect that might exist in the flap design, thereby reducing runway performance but increasing cruise performance. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: Please consider the materials in this electronic mail transmission (including all attachments) as private, confidential, and the property of the sender. The information contained in the material is privileged and is intended only for the use of the named addressee(s). Please do not make any unauthorized disclosure, copying, or distribution of this material. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please immediately notify me by sending an electronic message to capt_seth@yahoo.com, and thereafter, destroy it immediately. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:19 PM PST US From: "Victor C. Rupert" Subject: Commander-List: gap seals --> Commander-List message posted by: "Victor C. Rupert" Hmmmm.... Me suspicious of your winglets. Every plane that I've had from T-Tail Arrow, Mooney 201, Beech A-36, F-33 and a Twin Comanche, all had much better TOL performance ( by that I mean distance and speed were both lower ) with gap seals... Not to mention cruise is better so much so that is now the first mod I make on a new plane. Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moe" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Moe" > > Regarding the Flap Gap Seals, > > There is no doubt in my mind that flap gap seals do degrade the distance > before rotation. I can't remember exactly how much (I think that it is > about 75 feet) but if anyone wants to know exactly, I will stop by the > plane > and pick up my figures. This comes from taking off and landing at the > same > airport (HHR) for several years in the same plane with the conditions > being > about the same every day. I had the flap gap seals and winglets added at > the > same time. The performance degraded enough that I changed my "you should > rotate at this point" when taking off references. > > Regards, > > Moe > N680RR > 680F(p) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jetprop" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:33 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose > > >> --> Commander-List message posted by: "jetprop" >> >> >> amg(at)nc.rr.com wrote: >> > Hello, >> > >> > Anyone know how much a Shrike nose cost, and who sells and installs > them??? >> >> >> Hi - Bruce Byerly here - just wanted to introduce myself. I've been > lurking around the board for awhile now -- you guys seem to be having fun > :D >> >> I've grown up with Commanders and we have had a fiberglass nose cut from > an airframe for years. It's in good shape but will need to be removed from > the original structure. It's setup for a radome, but the radome has since > found a home. Let me know if you're interested. >> >> 309-397-2525 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4817#4817 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:48 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/17/2006 6:54:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, capnspray_611@hotmail.com writes: Pictures of N198JW 50FT. in the air, 1000FT from start of take-off from my 1900 FT grass strip 800 Ft Without the gap seals it would have been 150 feet at the same spot;-) jb ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:17 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/17/2006 7:03:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bertberry1@aol.com writes: Maybe the magic doesn't work until you paint them Never thought of that!! What WAS I thinking????? jb ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:56 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/17/2006 6:05:01 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, moe@rosspistons.com writes: The performance degraded enough that I changed my "you should rotate at this point" when taking off references. That's how it worked in my neighborhood as well. jb ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:50 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Shrike nose --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com In a message dated 1/17/2006 5:39:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, dfalik@sbcglobal.net writes: As far as take off performance, and this is anecdotal, I feel it comes off the ground sooner due to improved lift. Great opinion. But lets be reasonable here. Without the gap seals, the air is free to travel up a well thought out slot between the flap and the TE of the wing. If you look closely, you will see that Ted Smith put a lot of time into this area of the wing. The air can reattach to the LE of the flap and creates a much more efficient slow speed wing (look at the flaps on a Boeing). You simply cannot improve lift by closing this area up. You can, however, decrease drag. (more lift, more drag, less lift, less drag) Cover the gap up, and you now have an early twin Cessna flap. There is less drag, sure, hince the "float". But float does not mean the airplane is performing better at slow speed, in fact, just the opposite is true. Look, I fly all kinds of Commanders, all different models, all the time. I fly them with and without all of these mods, long and short noses, gap seals etc. I love the gap seals if TO / Landing performance is not an issue. If it is, better think twice. I am not trying to be a pill here, but this is aerodynamic fact. jb