Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:31 AM - regulators (Donnie Rose)
2. 10:39 AM - Re: regulators (CloudCraft@aol.com)
3. 10:53 AM - Re: regulators (Donnie Rose)
4. 11:01 AM - Advice from Gear-Heads... (Robert S. Randazzo)
5. 11:38 AM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (CloudCraft@aol.com)
6. 12:02 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (N395V)
7. 12:16 PM - Matronics BBS Forums (Matt Dralle)
8. 01:15 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Robert S. Randazzo)
9. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Robert S. Randazzo)
10. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (BobsV35B@aol.com)
11. 03:01 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (N395V)
12. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (BobsV35B@aol.com)
13. 08:25 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (BillLeff1@aol.com)
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--> Commander-List message posted by: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99@yahoo.com>
Anyone out there have any expierience with
"Zeftronics" changeover regulators and relays on a
500B?
Need to repair a Regulator system ASAP.
Thank You
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
__________________________________________________
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--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
Donnie,
It's a great system. The TCFG showcased them back in 1997-8 when Zeftronics
developed them.
At least one of our members (Dennis Polito, are you out there?) -- and
probably several by now -- have changed over to the Zeftronics from the old
regulators that came from Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
Message 3
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--> Commander-List message posted by: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99@yahoo.com>
Thank you for your kind reply Commander Gordon.
This is the very thing a good "chat list" is made for.
Your friend,
Donnie
--- CloudCraft@aol.com wrote:
> --> Commander-List message posted by:
> CloudCraft@aol.com
>
> Donnie,
>
> It's a great system. The TCFG showcased them back
> in 1997-8 when Zeftronics
> developed them.
>
> At least one of our members (Dennis Polito, are you
> out there?) -- and
> probably several by now -- have changed over to the
> Zeftronics from the old
> regulators that came from Dr. Frankenstein's
> laboratory.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com>
Gents-
I've finished reading the entire list-archive history finally- and have
cultivated a tremendous amount of information (some good...some not-so-good
hahahah) that will help me in my effort to learn all there is to know about
our AC685...
I have a question to a reference that comes up a few times in conversations-
and was hoping someone could elaborate more in order to expand my general
fund of knowledge!
-> In a few conversations, some fellows have referred to keeping the props
loaded. In the conversation- they seem to infer that you can tell when you
have unloaded the props. How can you tell? Obviously we don't have a
Torque gauge- so I'm assuming it's an experience factor here- but what am I
sensing-for/looking-for?
-> When operating on the ground, is there a preferred idle speed during that
serves the need to allow for oil heating/lubrication while also keeping the
torque working in the right direction?
-> On the same line of thought- any thought to be given to adjusting idle
speed on the ground in gusty conditions to prevent negative torque?
N414C has a newly overhauled prop on the left side- and freshly overhauled
engine/prop going on the right side starting this week (FINALLY!) and it'll
still be a few weeks before I get a chance to worry about running the
engines- but I'm still learning....
Robert
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 22-May-06 11:02:23 Pacific Daylight Time,
rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes:
-> In a few conversations, some fellows have referred to keeping the props
loaded. In the conversation- they seem to infer that you can tell when you
have unloaded the props. How can you tell? Obviously we don't have a
Torque gauge- so I'm assuming it's an experience factor here- but what am I
sensing-for/looking-for?
A loaded prop has glassy, blood shot eyes, can't taxi in a straight line and
is always hungry. The last two symptoms are very typical of Commanders with
geared engines. Sorry ... couldn't resist.
On the ground, with geared Lycomings, it's pretty obvious in that you can
hear lots of clatter in the gear box. I don't think the Continental gear box
clatters as much, but both engines like an idle of 1000 to 1200 RPMs, not 800
RPMs as with direct drive engines.
In flight there is no way to tell if the crank is driving the prop and not
vice versa (without a torque meter, you're correct) but by NOT bringing the
props to high RPMs (or Fine Pitch if you're British), is how to keep them "loaded."
You can keep your cruise RPMs set all the way from top of descent to touch
down and you'll be fine.
This rattles lots of pilots as it goes against the traditional wisdom and
training done in direct drive powered aircraft.
Look at the power curves of your geared Lycoming or Continental and you can
see that with props at cruise, one can add MAP to about 60% power or more, to
get the go-around or missed approach going and not have to worry about lots of
lever management in those first few moments.
Wing Commander Gordon
PS:Robert, I have not forgotten about scanning the trends from N414C -- it's
just that my day job has kept me from getting to them.
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" <n395v@hughes.net>
> keeping the props loaded
A little truth, a little OWT, and a little knowledge frequently leads to perpetuated
misunderstanding.
#1 Let's define keeping the "props loaded" also known as keep the engine driving
the prop and never let the prop drive the engine.
This implies that the engine is always trying to turn faster than the prop and
positive contact is maintained between the driving face of the gears.
This just isn't possible. As you note in idle, a vigorous wind gust can often "unload"
the props as will every power reduction no matter how gentle or slowly
it is made.
These gears are case hardened primarily on the driving surface and less so on the
"backside of each tooth. They are also lapped during manufacture so the drive
surfaces in a set more closely match than the non drive side of the gear.
This does NOT mean the non driving surface is soft nor is it fragile. It is just
wears more quickly when used in an unloaded condition.
Your props are going to unload when you reduce power just accept that as fact.
Just limit the duration of these unloaded periods as much as possible and limit
them to low power settings.
Also consider moving your levers in the sequence opposite from what we have always
learned Reduce RPM then reduce MP. When making small adjustments advance
MP then advance RPM.
Abrupt reduction inMP will backlash (unload the props) for longer than is probably
healthy. Gradual reductions unload the props briefly but they will quickly
equilibrate.
The time where loading is most prolonged and noticable is approach to landing,
landing, and roll out. These are times of significantly reduced power and cause
no real harm as long as you are smooth and gradual.
Get out of the habit of advancing RPM on final approach if you are comfortable
in the knowledge a go around will not be required.
Next time you fly and are in cruise do a rapid 5"MP reduction or shove the props
full forward. You will see and hear the "unloaded" condition. Useyour ears and
butt as your torque meter.
Damage is done based on total duration of the unloaded condition as well as the
quantitative sum of effective horsepower during the time you are unloaded. Un
loading rarely causes catastrophic failure mostly justv accelerated wear. Extensive
wear increases backlash (the distance you can rotate the prop between contact
with the front gear face to the rear gearface) and if this becomes large
enough a drastic power deduction may result in abrupt failure but part of every
annual involves measurement of backlash.
Use common sense, smooth control inputs and you have nothing to worry about. Do
not sweat the approach to landing or Taxi phase. The gears are precision pieces
of industrial metal they are not fragile.
Did you get the info on the SBs?
If you ever do find it necessary to make a rapid power reduction pull the RPM back
1st as far as you are comfortable with.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=35816#35816
Message 7
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| Subject: | Matronics BBS Forums |
--> Commander-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Hello Listers,
I just wanted to send out a reminder to all of the Listers regarding the new-ish
BBS (Bulletin Board System) Forums that are available at Matronics for the Email
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Basically, the BBS Forums give you yet another method of accessing the Matronics
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can have it either way or both with the Matronics Lists!
You'll have to register for a login/password on the BBS Forum to _post_ from the
BBS, but you can view message content without registering for an account. To
Register for an account, look for the link at the top of the main BBS Forum
page entitled "Register". Click on it and follow the instructions. Site Administrator
approval will be required (to keep spammers out), but I will try to
get these approved in less than 24 hours.
If you haven't yet taken a look at the Matronics Email List content over on the
BBS Forum, surf on over and take a peek. Its pretty cool. The URL is:
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I want to stress that the BBS Forums are simply an adjunct to the existing Matronics
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Thanks for all the great list participation and support; it is greatly appreciated!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 8
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| Subject: | Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com>
WCG:
No worries on the scans- they can wait until you have ABSOLUTELY nothing
else to do some afternoon....
You and Milt have both taken time to find old records on this airplane- and
the effort is greatly appreciated. Great community.
So now- in order to have loaded props, based upon your definition- I
should tear off the electric heating pads and use alcohol instead, right?
:-p Who knew it would be so easy. hahahahahah
Robert Randazzo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CloudCraft@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:37
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads...
--> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com
In a message dated 22-May-06 11:02:23 Pacific Daylight Time,
rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes:
-> In a few conversations, some fellows have referred to keeping the
-> props
loaded. In the conversation- they seem to infer that you can tell when you
have unloaded the props. How can you tell? Obviously we don't have a
Torque gauge- so I'm assuming it's an experience factor here- but what am I
sensing-for/looking-for?
A loaded prop has glassy, blood shot eyes, can't taxi in a straight line and
is always hungry. The last two symptoms are very typical of Commanders
with
geared engines. Sorry ... couldn't resist.
On the ground, with geared Lycomings, it's pretty obvious in that you can
hear lots of clatter in the gear box. I don't think the Continental gear
box clatters as much, but both engines like an idle of 1000 to 1200 RPMs,
not 800 RPMs as with direct drive engines.
In flight there is no way to tell if the crank is driving the prop and not
vice versa (without a torque meter, you're correct) but by NOT bringing the
props to high RPMs (or Fine Pitch if you're British), is how to keep them
"loaded."
You can keep your cruise RPMs set all the way from top of descent to touch
down and you'll be fine.
This rattles lots of pilots as it goes against the traditional wisdom and
training done in direct drive powered aircraft.
Look at the power curves of your geared Lycoming or Continental and you can
see that with props at cruise, one can add MAP to about 60% power or more,
to get the go-around or missed approach going and not have to worry about
lots of lever management in those first few moments.
Wing Commander Gordon
PS:Robert, I have not forgotten about scanning the trends from N414C --
it's just that my day job has kept me from getting to them.
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
__________ NOD32 1.1552 (20060522) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com>
Milt-
Okay- thanks- this is helpful information. Seems that the 520Ks are a bit
like the garrets on the J31s I flew years ago when it comes to their dislike
of negative torque... The 31 hated negative torque- and the engineers had
developed this fancy negative torque sensing system that would tinker with
the fuel flow in order to keep the prop from driving the engine- and it
would cause the airplane to shudder like crazy if you loaded the props- so
you because pretty proficient at avoiding it.
The techniques learned there will be very easy to apply to the 520Ks... It
isn't hard to avoid loading the props if you plan ahead and aren't afraid to
tell ATC when their plan won't work.
My experience with the N414C prior to putting it in the hangar for this
overhaul was that the airplane was very capable of managing the first/second
stage climbout of a go-around without adjusting the prop speeds on approach.
The only area where I think it might be more urgent to get the prop speeds
up is in a rejected landing.... But that is the rarest of of events,
fortunately.
Thanks for the comments, Milt- you are correct that it is easy to begin
thinking that the gears were made of sub-standard material after reading all
the "conventional wisdom" out there. Sure- these engines are more
complicated than most- and they are at the outter limits of power
production for this type of mechanical setup- but if flown procedurally
with care to respect their limits- they will operate just like any other
powerplant out there. Heck, most turboprop/jet engines will destroy
themselves if you don't manage them effectively... It's all about
procedures and minding the limits and capabilities. Difference is that you
generally get some pretty intensive training before you get to tinker with
stuff like that. Not so in GA- so I imagine it's easy for a new guy to get
in over his head with some engines.
I received the docs you sent and they have been married to all the rest of
the information we have on the airplane. I'm embarrased that I neglected to
send you a "thank you!" email.... You saved me a tremendous amount of
hassle having to dredge up those items on my own. No doubt Felix had some
headaches finding them for you- so please pass along our thanks to him as
well!
Robert Randazzo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:02
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads...
--> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" <n395v@hughes.net>
> keeping the props loaded
A little truth, a little OWT, and a little knowledge frequently leads to
perpetuated misunderstanding.
#1 Let's define keeping the "props loaded" also known as keep the engine
driving the prop and never let the prop drive the engine.
This implies that the engine is always trying to turn faster than the prop
and positive contact is maintained between the driving face of the gears.
This just isn't possible. As you note in idle, a vigorous wind gust can
often "unload" the props as will every power reduction no matter how gentle
or slowly it is made.
These gears are case hardened primarily on the driving surface and less so
on the "backside of each tooth. They are also lapped during manufacture so
the drive surfaces in a set more closely match than the non drive side of
the gear.
This does NOT mean the non driving surface is soft nor is it fragile. It is
just wears more quickly when used in an unloaded condition.
Your props are going to unload when you reduce power just accept that as
fact. Just limit the duration of these unloaded periods as much as possible
and limit them to low power settings.
Also consider moving your levers in the sequence opposite from what we have
always learned Reduce RPM then reduce MP. When making small adjustments
advance MP then advance RPM.
Abrupt reduction inMP will backlash (unload the props) for longer than is
probably healthy. Gradual reductions unload the props briefly but they will
quickly equilibrate.
The time where loading is most prolonged and noticable is approach to
landing, landing, and roll out. These are times of significantly reduced
power and cause no real harm as long as you are smooth and gradual.
Get out of the habit of advancing RPM on final approach if you are
comfortable in the knowledge a go around will not be required.
Next time you fly and are in cruise do a rapid 5"MP reduction or shove the
props full forward. You will see and hear the "unloaded" condition. Useyour
ears and butt as your torque meter.
Damage is done based on total duration of the unloaded condition as well as
the quantitative sum of effective horsepower during the time you are
unloaded. Un loading rarely causes catastrophic failure mostly justv
accelerated wear. Extensive wear increases backlash (the distance you can
rotate the prop between contact with the front gear face to the rear
gearface) and if this becomes large enough a drastic power deduction may
result in abrupt failure but part of every annual involves measurement of
backlash.
Use common sense, smooth control inputs and you have nothing to worry about.
Do not sweat the approach to landing or Taxi phase. The gears are precision
pieces of industrial metal they are not fragile.
Did you get the info on the SBs?
If you ever do find it necessary to make a rapid power reduction pull the
RPM back 1st as far as you are comfortable with.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=35816#35816
__________ NOD32 1.1552 (20060522) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 5/22/2006 2:03:31 P.M. Central Standard Time,
n395v@hughes.net writes:
Get out of the habit of advancing RPM on final approach if you are
comfortable in the knowledge a go around will not be required.
Good Afternoon Milt,
I agree with everything you say, but why not just keep the props back all of
the time during the approach whether there is a go around planned or not?
Any of the Continental and Lycoming engines are approved for a pretty
healthy dose of MP at the very lowest cruising RPMs. Some of them are even approved
for full throttle at minimum recommended cruising RPM. Since there is
always a possibility that an emergency go around will have to be conducted, why
not plan on adding half or three quarters of the MP available, then run the
props up, followed by adding the rest of the MP. If that is trained to as the
normal operation, an emergency becomes the same as any other go around and
there is never any need to shove the props up before a considerable amount of
power has been added.
I don't know how any other airline handled it, but that is the way it was
done at UAL and I carried that technique over to all my GA flying.
It is the way I have taught and the way I have flown for most of the sixty
years I have been flying.
Works for me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" <n395v@hughes.net>
> why not just keep the props back all of
> the time during the approach whether there is a go around planned or not?
No good reason to not do as you suggest.
Just in the past have found it to convince those transitioning to geared enginse
to view power management a little differently especially if they have never
flown blown engines. They easily learn to move the levers differently, oversquare
is difficult for them to embrace and the last thing they seem willing to
give up is shoving the props forward and making that God awful noise on approach
because they were afraid it would grow hair on their knuckles if they didn't.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=35902#35902
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 5/22/2006 5:01:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
n395v@hughes.net writes:
No good reason to not do as you suggest.
Just in the past have found it to convince those transitioning to geared
engines to view power management a little differently especially if they have
never flown blown engines. They easily learn to move the levers differently,
oversquare is difficult for them to embrace and the last thing they seem
willing to give up is shoving the props forward and making that God awful noise
on
approach because they were afraid it would grow hair on their knuckles if
they didn't.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
My Kinda Guy!!
Do Not Archive!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... |
--> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com
The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the engine
while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the throttles on touchdown.
One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound of the
props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the engine. It is not
a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative.
You can't set the idle to prevent it.
I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's (including
N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper training.
One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one!
(please no jokes about having two because one is always in the shop)! They fly
the
heck out of them.
Have fun
Bill Leff
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