---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/23/06: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:28 AM - Re: regulators (W J R HAMILTON) 2. 08:26 AM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Tom Fisher) 3. 08:34 AM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (nico css) 4. 09:20 AM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (N395V) 5. 09:59 AM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (N395V) 6. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP (CloudCraft@aol.com) 7. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP (BobsV35B@aol.com) 8. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP (CloudCraft@aol.com) 9. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP (Barry Collman) 10. 01:08 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (BillLeff1@aol.com) 11. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 12. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 13. 01:30 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Robert S. Randazzo) 14. 02:34 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Robert S. Randazzo) 15. 06:22 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Bill Bow) 16. 06:51 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Tylor Hall) 17. 07:07 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (N395V) 18. 07:08 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Robert S. Randazzo) 19. 07:41 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Don Girod) 20. 08:57 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (STOLHorse@aol.com) 21. 09:45 PM - Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... (Robert S. Randazzo) 22. 10:36 PM - Prop feathering (Tom Fisher) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:14 AM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: regulators --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON Donnie, I have then on my 500A, last owner fitted them, not a problem in years. Cheers, Bill H. PS They are quite a popular retrofit under our version of a 337 approval. ---------- At 02:29 AM 23/05/2006, you wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: Donnie Rose > >Anyone out there have any expierience with >"Zeftronics" changeover regulators and relays on a >500B? >Need to repair a Regulator system ASAP. >Thank You > >Donnie Rose >205/492-8444 > >__________________________________________________ > > CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net. & . This message is intended for and should only be used by the addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information.If you are not the intended recipient any use distribution,disclosure or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.Confidentiality and legal privilege attached to this communication are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery to you.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately to: Australia 61 (0)408 876 526 Dolores capitis non fero. Eos do. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:15 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Just a quick comment, When I taxi by people on the ground in my 680FLP (Mr.RPM) I see them sticking their fingers in their ears due to my prop noise so at times I increase the pitch to a coarse setting (not letting it go into feather) until I am by them, any comments regarding stress on using this practice? Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 20:24 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... > --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com > > The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the engine > while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the throttles on touchdown. > > One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound of the > props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the engine. It is not > a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative. > > You can't set the idle to prevent it. > > I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's (including > N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper training. > > One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one! > (please no jokes about having two because one is always in the shop)! They fly the > heck out of them. > > Have fun > > Bill Leff > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:43 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Tom, There is a solution to the hearing sensitivity of your audience, though. Get a Paris Jet and taxi by them a couple of times and they would wave in delight when you next taxi by in the Commander. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Just a quick comment, When I taxi by people on the ground in my 680FLP (Mr.RPM) I see them sticking their fingers in their ears due to my prop noise so at times I increase the pitch to a coarse setting (not letting it go into feather) until I am by them, any comments regarding stress on using this practice? Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 20:24 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... > --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com > > The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the engine > while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the throttles on touchdown. > > One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound of the > props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the engine. It is not > a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative. > > You can't set the idle to prevent it. > > I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's (including > N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper training. > > One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one! > (please no jokes about having two because one is always in the shop)! They fly the > heck out of them. > > Have fun > > Bill Leff > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:49 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... From: "N395V" --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" > any comments regarding stress on using this practice? > Tom, In my opinion the answer is no problem. You might read this thread for further opinion........... I also wouldn't worry about the audience your taxi by is of short duration, they are at an airport and noise happens. I never have seen corporate types worry about opthers ears when they let the APU run for an hour on the ramp to cool the plane irrespective of the fact that nobody withi 100yards can think because of the racket. -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36021#36021 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:33 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... From: "N395V" --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" At the risk of generating spirited debate and controversy here is something for you big bore turboed gear heads to consider. [/img] I have never been a proponent of LOP solely for fuel savings but given $4/gal is probably here to stay it has moved up on my list of reasons to operate LOP. -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36027#36027 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:46 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 23-May-06 10:00:19 Pacific Daylight Time, n395v@hughes.net writes: At the risk of generating spirited debate and controversy here is something for you big bore turboed gear heads to consider. [/img] I have never been a proponent of LOP solely for fuel savings but given $4/gal is probably here to stay it has moved up on my list of reasons to operate LOP. <><><><><><><><><> Dr. Milt, you're a muck raker! I was (and in theory still am) a LOP guy but it was an interview I did last millennium with Suburban Air Freight of Omaha, Nebraska -- an AC-680-FL fleet operator -- who changed my mind. Their reason for running ROP was not about cylinder head temperature nor any of the usual heat or oil wash reasons: it was because of the low lead content in modern AvGas. They saw a problem with valve guide lubrication that lead was intended to provide in these engines. So, in the controversial spirit of cheapness, how much is one saving LOP vs. other engine wear costs? I don't know the answer and I think it depends on how many hours a year one operates. A recreational operator with one airplane has a different economic urge than a fleet operator who is trying to make money by flying a bunch of airplanes. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:08 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP --> Commander-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Afternoon Commander Gordon, My understanding is that the FAA ran some tests of leaded against non leaded fuel. Rumor has it that it was some model of Aero Commander, but I do not know which one. In any case, one engine was ran on leaded fuel and the other on nonleaded fuel. The only difference at overhaul time was that the engine that was run on nonleaded fuel was a lot cleaner. There was no measurable difference in wear. There are just as many engine experts who will tell you that the idea of lead being needed by any of our engines to lubricate the valves, or anything else, is pure unadulterated rubbish, as there are ones who swear the lead is needed. The FAA may not have said it in just those words, but it was pretty strong statement. Most of the folks who claim the engine needs the lead tend to be old time mechanics and engine rebuilders rather than trained engineers. Do you know of any scientific evaluation that shows things differently than did the FAA tests? I once read an article by a gentleman who claimed to be the engineer who developed Ethyl gasoline. It was his statement that the lead was a necessary evil to get the octane up at low cost. It did nothing for the engine other than change the octane and it was detrimental other than that. If anyone is interested in reading one pilot's take on engine operations, they might want to check through John Deakin's article for his series on engine management. Try: _http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182146-1.html_ (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182146-1.html) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 5/23/2006 12:38:26 P.M. Central Standard Time, CloudCraft@aol.com writes: Their reason for running ROP was not about cylinder head temperature nor any of the usual heat or oil wash reasons: it was because of the low lead content in modern AvGas. They saw a problem with valve guide lubrication that lead was intended to provide in these engines. So, in the controversial spirit of cheapness, how much is one saving LOP vs. other engine wear costs? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:32 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 23-May-06 11:27:46 Pacific Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Most of the folks who claim the engine needs the lead tend to be old time mechanics and engine rebuilders rather than trained engineers. Do you know of any scientific evaluation that shows things differently than did the FAA tests? <><><><><><><><><> Old Bob, As a friend of mine, since gone West, used to say, "It's either very loose science or very tight magic." The only science these guys had was operational experience on a fleet of Lycoming IGSO-540s over a long period of time, and their opinion on what kept the engines on the airplane and not in the shop. Their valve guide problems could have been something else entirely, but they had their belief in what caused and fixed it. The man I interviewed was Jay Armstrong (Jay Armstrong at 402-344-4100) and I just called him to make sure I either didn't misquote him or if he's changed his mind since 1999, but he's not in today. Rats! Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:02 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" Hi All, The FAA did indeed run some tests of leaded against non-leaded fuel. They were conducted, although I cannot say if it was exclusively, using their Aero Commander 680E, s/n 818-62, N50, in 1999. Very Best Regards, Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP | --> Commander-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com | | | | Good Afternoon Commander Gordon, | | My understanding is that the FAA ran some tests of leaded against non leaded | fuel. Rumor has it that it was some model of Aero Commander, but I do not | know which one. | | In any case, one engine was ran on leaded fuel and the other on nonleaded | fuel. The only difference at overhaul time was that the engine that was run on | nonleaded fuel was a lot cleaner. There was no measurable difference in | wear. | | There are just as many engine experts who will tell you that the idea of | lead being needed by any of our engines to lubricate the valves, or anything | else, is pure unadulterated rubbish, as there are ones who swear the lead is | needed. | | The FAA may not have said it in just those words, but it was pretty strong | statement. | | Most of the folks who claim the engine needs the lead tend to be old time | mechanics and engine rebuilders rather than trained engineers. | | Do you know of any scientific evaluation that shows things differently than | did the FAA tests? | | I once read an article by a gentleman who claimed to be the engineer who | developed Ethyl gasoline. It was his statement that the lead was a necessary | evil to get the octane up at low cost. It did nothing for the engine other than | change the octane and it was detrimental other than that. | | If anyone is interested in reading one pilot's take on engine operations, | they might want to check through John Deakin's article for his series on engine | management. | | Try: _http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182146-1.html_ | (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182146-1.html) | | Happy Skies, | | Old Bob | AKA | Bob Siegfried | Ancient Aviator | Stearman N3977A | Brookeridge Air Park LL22 | Downers Grove, IL 60516 | 630 985-8503 | | | In a message dated 5/23/2006 12:38:26 P.M. Central Standard Time, | CloudCraft@aol.com writes: | | | Their reason for running ROP was not about cylinder head temperature nor any | of the usual heat or oil wash reasons: it was because of the low lead | content | in modern AvGas. | | They saw a problem with valve guide lubrication that lead was intended to | provide in these engines. | | So, in the controversial spirit of cheapness, how much is one saving LOP vs. | other engine wear costs? | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:47 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com I think they think you are a Turbo Commander and are automatically expecting a lot of noise. The Mr RPM is very quiet on the ground except at lift off. Bill ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:31 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com Charles F. Kettering (of Dayton Ohio) invented the use of Tetra Ethyl Lead in gasoline. He is long dead! Bill Leff ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:00 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... LOP --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com I have been flying and maintaining IGSO-540's in Commanders since 1970. The only thing that keeps cylinders from failing is 50GPH at cuise! That generally works out to 50 deg. ROP. Heat is the issue. I do not have the same problem on my 560F with IGO-540's. I have been flying that specific airplane since 1973. Bill Leff ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:07 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" Bill- Well now... Sometimes I like having people confuse me with a turbo commander. All the mystique and half the fuel burn. ;-) Robert Randazzo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 13:07 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com I think they think you are a Turbo Commander and are automatically expecting a lot of noise. The Mr RPM is very quiet on the ground except at lift off. Bill __________ NOD32 1.1553 (20060522) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:37 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" Bill- We put 414C in the shop for a pretty intensive inspection immediately after bringing her west. It was pretty clear that we had a gem- but she'd been subjected to "lowest bidder maintenance" for a while- a suspicion which is more-or-less confirmed now that I've exchanged email with Milt... The process has been slow- but it's beginning to accelerate toward the finish line. I'm fortunate that our maintenance team is also the team conducting the overhaul- so they are very well invested in the airplane. They've taken great pride in pointing out some of the little details that they have looked after "just because." Hope to have her flying again during the next few months... Parts are going back in- which is nice. Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 20:24 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the engine while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the throttles on touchdown. One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound of the props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the engine. It is not a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative. You can't set the idle to prevent it. I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's (including N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper training. One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one! (please no jokes about having two because one is always in the shop)! They fly the heck out of them. Have fun Bill Leff __________ NOD32 1.1553 (20060522) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:26 PM PST US From: "Bill Bow" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" Perfect! bilbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:34 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" Tom, There is a solution to the hearing sensitivity of your audience, though. Get a Paris Jet and taxi by them a couple of times and they would wave in delight when you next taxi by in the Commander. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Just a quick comment, When I taxi by people on the ground in my 680FLP (Mr.RPM) I see them sticking their fingers in their ears due to my prop noise so at times I increase the pitch to a coarse setting (not letting it go into feather) until I am by them, any comments regarding stress on using this practice? Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 20:24 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... > --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com > > The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the engine > while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the throttles on touchdown. > > One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound of the > props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the engine. It is not > a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative. > > You can't set the idle to prevent it. > > I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's (including > N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper training. > > One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one! > (please no jokes about having two because one is always in the shop)! They fly the > heck out of them. > > Have fun > > Bill Leff > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:50 PM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: Tylor Hall Gear Heads, I have a question about checking the props to see if they will go into feather. I have been flying with my boss in a 421 and he does not like it since he says he can not test the props to feather mode with out causing a problem with the gear box. In the 500B that I had access to, pulling the props back to feather for a brief moment was a standard thing, but it is a direct drive engine. My Boss is down on the 421, because he feels that if there is an engine problem and the prop does not go into feather, there will be an off airport landing since the aircraft can not maintain altitude unless the prop feathers. He feels that there is a 50-50 chance that the prop will not feather. He does cycle the prop, but not to feather. How does one test the props to feather on a geared engine with out causing damage to the gear box??? Does unloading the prop at low RPM cause a gear backlash?? Pondering minds would like to know. Tylor Hall On May 23, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" > > > Bill- > > We put 414C in the shop for a pretty intensive inspection > immediately after > bringing her west. It was pretty clear that we had a gem- but > she'd been > subjected to "lowest bidder maintenance" for a while- a suspicion > which is > more-or-less confirmed now that I've exchanged email with Milt... > > The process has been slow- but it's beginning to accelerate toward the > finish line. > > I'm fortunate that our maintenance team is also the team conducting > the > overhaul- so they are very well invested in the airplane. They've > taken > great pride in pointing out some of the little details that they > have looked > after "just because." > > Hope to have her flying again during the next few months... Parts > are going > back in- which is nice. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > BillLeff1@aol.com > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 20:24 > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... > > --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com > > The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the > engine > while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the throttles on > touchdown. > > One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound > of the > props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the engine. > It is > not a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative. > > You can't set the idle to prevent it. > > I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's > (including > N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper > training. > > One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one! > (please no jokes about having two because one is always in the > shop)! They > fly the heck out of them. > > Have fun > > Bill Leff > > > __________ NOD32 1.1553 (20060522) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:27 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Advice from Gear-Heads... From: "N395V" --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" Shut one down at a time in flight and feather it. -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36126#36126 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:08 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" Tylor- What is it that makes him think feathering the prop on a GTSIO is a 50/50 proposition? I have read this supposition in a few less-informed discussion groups- but I have never seen anyone substantiate it with facts. A quick scan of NTSB findings doesn't provide any data that would appear to substantiate any concerns about feathering... (Aside from which- if there were an actual trend on this- we'd have half a dozen SB's and AD's to contend with on the issue and it would have been resolved by now.... I have enough faith in the FAA to believe in that- but not much more faith than that. ;-p ) I've NEVER found it to be a good idea to run a piston engine into feather just for the fun of it- generally a single swing of the prop pitch levers to ensure that you have control of prop pitch is sufficient. I can see the practical application of making a single test-to-feather after major engine work and/or hanging a new prop/engine combination- but once validate as working I'm not so certain there is value in this test whether the engine is geared or not... Just my opinion- and not based upon any specific engineering information... Robert Randazzo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 18:50 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: Tylor Hall --> Gear Heads, I have a question about checking the props to see if they will go into feather. I have been flying with my boss in a 421 and he does not like it since he says he can not test the props to feather mode with out causing a problem with the gear box. In the 500B that I had access to, pulling the props back to feather for a brief moment was a standard thing, but it is a direct drive engine. My Boss is down on the 421, because he feels that if there is an engine problem and the prop does not go into feather, there will be an off airport landing since the aircraft can not maintain altitude unless the prop feathers. He feels that there is a 50-50 chance that the prop will not feather. He does cycle the prop, but not to feather. How does one test the props to feather on a geared engine with out causing damage to the gear box??? Does unloading the prop at low RPM cause a gear backlash?? Pondering minds would like to know. Tylor Hall On May 23, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" > > > Bill- > > We put 414C in the shop for a pretty intensive inspection immediately > after bringing her west. It was pretty clear that we had a gem- but > she'd been subjected to "lowest bidder maintenance" for a while- a > suspicion which is more-or-less confirmed now that I've exchanged > email with Milt... > > The process has been slow- but it's beginning to accelerate toward the > finish line. > > I'm fortunate that our maintenance team is also the team conducting > the > overhaul- so they are very well invested in the airplane. They've > taken great pride in pointing out some of the little details that they > have looked after "just because." > > Hope to have her flying again during the next few months... Parts are > going back in- which is nice. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > BillLeff1@aol.com > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 20:24 > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... > > --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com > > The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the > engine while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the > throttles on touchdown. > > One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound of > the props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the > engine. > It is > not a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative. > > You can't set the idle to prevent it. > > I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's > (including > N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper > training. > > One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one! > (please no jokes about having two because one is always in the shop)! > They fly the heck out of them. > > Have fun > > Bill Leff > > > __________ NOD32 1.1553 (20060522) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > __________ NOD32 1.1554 (20060524) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:24 PM PST US From: "Don Girod" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Don Girod" Tylor; I am not an expert by any means, but logic tells me that probably the most 'positive prop pressure' you could inflict on a gear box is going to the feather position, that is ALL engine running prop. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tylor Hall" Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... > --> Commander-List message posted by: Tylor Hall > > > Gear Heads, > I have a question about checking the props to see if they will go > into feather. > > I have been flying with my boss in a 421 and he does not like it > since he says he can not test the props to feather mode with out > causing a problem with the gear box. > > In the 500B that I had access to, pulling the props back to feather > for a brief moment was a standard thing, but it is a direct drive > engine. > > My Boss is down on the 421, because he feels that if there is an > engine problem and the prop does not go into feather, there will be > an off airport landing since the aircraft can not maintain altitude > unless the prop feathers. He feels that there is a 50-50 chance that > the prop will not feather. He does cycle the prop, but not to feather. > > How does one test the props to feather on a geared engine with out > causing damage to the gear box??? > Does unloading the prop at low RPM cause a gear backlash?? > > Pondering minds would like to know. > Tylor Hall > > > On May 23, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > >> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" >> >> >> Bill- >> >> We put 414C in the shop for a pretty intensive inspection >> immediately after >> bringing her west. It was pretty clear that we had a gem- but >> she'd been >> subjected to "lowest bidder maintenance" for a while- a suspicion >> which is >> more-or-less confirmed now that I've exchanged email with Milt... >> >> The process has been slow- but it's beginning to accelerate toward the >> finish line. >> >> I'm fortunate that our maintenance team is also the team conducting >> the >> overhaul- so they are very well invested in the airplane. They've >> taken >> great pride in pointing out some of the little details that they >> have looked >> after "just because." >> >> Hope to have her flying again during the next few months... Parts >> are going >> back in- which is nice. >> >> Rob >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> BillLeff1@aol.com >> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 20:24 >> To: commander-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... >> >> --> Commander-List message posted by: BillLeff1@aol.com >> >> The bottom line is that you never want to let the props drive the >> engine >> while in flight. That does not mean you can't close the throttles on >> touchdown. >> >> One of the best ways to tell when this is happening is by the sound >> of the >> props. They make a distinct sound as they start to push the engine. >> It is >> not a catastrophic condition but the damaging effects are cumulative. >> >> You can't set the idle to prevent it. >> >> I have flown at least half of the fleet or more of the 685's >> (including >> N414C) It is a great airplane but there is no substitute for proper >> training. >> >> One of my customers liked their 685 so well, they bought a second one! >> (please no jokes about having two because one is always in the >> shop)! They >> fly the heck out of them. >> >> Have fun >> >> Bill Leff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 1.1553 (20060522) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:24 PM PST US From: STOLHorse@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: STOLHorse@aol.com I check the feathering on the 685 at about 1200 - 1300 rpm. It's very gentle and you can practically hear the blades change pitch before you see any rpm drop. You can pull the prop lever back to the detent just before feather and all will stay the same because at that rpm the governor is still so far below its minimum governing speed the prop stays at low pitch. When you pull back below the detent, the governor dumps the oil pressure and the propeller will gently start to feather. You can hear it plain as day and then bring it back out of feather before the rpm decays too much. This proves that the feathering function of the governor is working and that the rigging is correct on that end. (I suppose there could be a mechanical defect in the propeller that would stop the blades from moving before they hit the feathering stop but I'm thinking that kind of problem would show itself in flight as poor constant speed governing or inability to maintain low rpm at high air speeds.) Anyway, I don't do this at every runup - only when the rigging needs to be checked or after replacement of some component. And, if you want to actually see it feather, you're practically at idle so you can just pull the prop lever into feather and then mixture to cutoff (I like to open the throttle too after the fuel is cutoff). The engine dies before the blades go all the way and you can just watch the nitrogen and spring do the rest. I let it feather on shut down for the oil changes, too. To unfeather it, you need to bleed all the nitrogen out and get a guy on each blade and turn them back towards low pitch until you hear the pitch stops click into place. Incidentally, the 685 the Commander maintenance manual is incorrect on nitrogen pressure. The book says something like 80psi but that is for a prop without the feathering spring. The props on the 685 DO have springs so the correct pressure for these props is right around 40 psi depending on temperature. The Hartzell book lists the pressure ranges. Anyway, try it at low rpm in your 421 tylor and see if you like it. In my opinion it is far less stressful on the engine than the average hot start! Aaargh. Best regards, David Maytag ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:58 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" David- Interesting info- wasn't my question but the detail is appreciated. Robert Randazzo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of STOLHorse@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 20:57 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... --> Commander-List message posted by: STOLHorse@aol.com I check the feathering on the 685 at about 1200 - 1300 rpm. It's very gentle and you can practically hear the blades change pitch before you see any rpm drop. You can pull the prop lever back to the detent just before feather and all will stay the same because at that rpm the governor is still so far below its minimum governing speed the prop stays at low pitch. When you pull back below the detent, the governor dumps the oil pressure and the propeller will gently start to feather. You can hear it plain as day and then bring it back out of feather before the rpm decays too much. This proves that the feathering function of the governor is working and that the rigging is correct on that end. (I suppose there could be a mechanical defect in the propeller that would stop the blades from moving before they hit the feathering stop but I'm thinking that kind of problem would show itself in flight as poor constant speed governing or inability to maintain low rpm at high air speeds.) Anyway, I don't do this at every runup - only when the rigging needs to be checked or after replacement of some component. And, if you want to actually see it feather, you're practically at idle so you can just pull the prop lever into feather and then mixture to cutoff (I like to open the throttle too after the fuel is cutoff). The engine dies before the blades go all the way and you can just watch the nitrogen and spring do the rest. I let it feather on shut down for the oil changes, too. To unfeather it, you need to bleed all the nitrogen out and get a guy on each blade and turn them back towards low pitch until you hear the pitch stops click into place. Incidentally, the 685 the Commander maintenance manual is incorrect on nitrogen pressure. The book says something like 80psi but that is for a prop without the feathering spring. The props on the 685 DO have springs so the correct pressure for these props is right around 40 psi depending on temperature. The Hartzell book lists the pressure ranges. Anyway, try it at low rpm in your 421 tylor and see if you like it. In my opinion it is far less stressful on the engine than the average hot start! Aaargh. Best regards, David Maytag __________ NOD32 1.1554 (20060524) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:41 PM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Commander-List: Prop feathering --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" I sometimes feather when I shut down just to reseat the seals if nothing else. The IO 720's idle so nicely at 600 RPM that the blades come out of feather with what appears to be no stress at all. Tom F. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 20:56 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Advice from Gear-Heads... > --> Commander-List message posted by: STOLHorse@aol.com > > I check the feathering on the 685 at about 1200 - 1300 rpm. It's very > gentle and you can practically hear the blades change pitch before you see any rpm > drop. > > You can pull the prop lever back to the detent just before feather and all > will stay the same because at that rpm the governor is still so far below its > minimum governing speed the prop stays at low pitch. When you pull back > below the detent, the governor dumps the oil pressure and the propeller will > gently start to feather. You can hear it plain as day and then bring it back out > of feather before the rpm decays too much. This proves that the feathering > function of the governor is working and that the rigging is correct on that > end. (I suppose there could be a mechanical defect in the propeller that > would stop the blades from moving before they hit the feathering stop but I'm > thinking that kind of problem would show itself in flight as poor constant speed > governing or inability to maintain low rpm at high air speeds.) > > Anyway, I don't do this at every runup - only when the rigging needs to be > checked or after replacement of some component. And, if you want to actually > see it feather, you're practically at idle so you can just pull the prop > lever into feather and then mixture to cutoff (I like to open the throttle too > after the fuel is cutoff). The engine dies before the blades go all the way > and you can just watch the nitrogen and spring do the rest. I let it feather > on shut down for the oil changes, too. > > To unfeather it, you need to bleed all the nitrogen out and get a guy on > each blade and turn them back towards low pitch until you hear the pitch stops > click into place. > > Incidentally, the 685 the Commander maintenance manual is incorrect on > nitrogen pressure. The book says something like 80psi but that is for a prop > without the feathering spring. The props on the 685 DO have springs so the > correct pressure for these props is right around 40 psi depending on temperature. > The Hartzell book lists the pressure ranges. > > Anyway, try it at low rpm in your 421 tylor and see if you like it. In my > opinion it is far less stressful on the engine than the average hot start! > Aaargh. > > Best regards, > > David Maytag > >