---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/22/06: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:12 AM - Re: Commander-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 08/21/06 (Dan Farmer) 2. 12:40 PM - Re: Message regarding autopilot () 3. 01:27 PM - Re: Message regarding autopilot (Tylor Hall) 4. 06:44 PM - SA10439SC.pdf () 5. 06:55 PM - Re: SA10439SC.pdf (Tylor Hall) 6. 07:38 PM - Re: SA10439SC.pdf (Robert S. Randazzo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:17 AM PST US From: Dan Farmer Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 08/21/06 Oddly enough I am in Toykyo reading about spar problems in all commanders. Google "Aero Commander" on the first page is a hit on "wikipedia" then a article on adey murphey's crash click one of the links and it takes you to the sj swift report. dan farmer Commander-List Digest Server wrote: * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list/Digest.Commander-List.2006-08-21.html Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list/Digest.Commander-List.2006-08-21.txt =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/21/06: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (W J R HAMILTON) 2. 05:32 AM - Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (W J R HAMILTON) 3. 11:40 AM - Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. () 4. 12:52 PM - Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (Robert S. Randazzo) 5. 01:58 PM - Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (N395V) 6. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (Robert S. Randazzo) 7. 02:36 PM - Re: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (John Vormbaum) 8. 04:20 PM - Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (N395V) 9. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. (Robert S. Randazzo) 10. 09:36 PM - Re: Commander pics and stuff (BillLeff1@aol.com) 11. 09:48 PM - Re: Commander pics and stuff (BillLeff1@aol.com) 12. 10:41 PM - Re: Message regarding autopilot (BillLeff1@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:04 AM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: History of 500A wing spar problems. Jim, Some info. If I can find an actual link, I will send it, in the meantime, try Google: [2] Swift SJ (1995) =91The Aero Commander Chronicle=92. Proceedings of the 18th Symposium of the International Committee on Aeronautical Fatigue, EMAS, Melbourne, Australia, pages 507 ' 530. [3] Swift SJ (1999) =91Gnats and Camels ' 30 Years of Regulating Structural Fatigue in Light Aircraft=92. Proceedings of the 20th Symposium of the International Committee on Aeronautical Fatigue, Bellevue, Washington, USA, pages 685 ' 708. Regards, Bill Hamilton At 11:04 PM 18/08/2006, you wrote: > >I was wondering if anyone could help me with >current or historic information on the Aero >commander 500A in reference to problems with the wing spar. >I have N 800AC which I have been working to get >airworthy for the last few years and was down to >one last problem. I had a fuel leak which you >could smell in the aft cabin. When they pulled >the center fuel bladder out to repair or replace >they found the wing spar in my plane to be 50% deteriorated. > >Are there any ADs or service advisories which >would have covered this problem in the past? >Where can I get replacement parts? > >Thanks, >Jim > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:24 AM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: History of 500A wing spar problems. Jim, Try this, I was looking everywhere but the obvious place, I was talking to Swift today, it doesn't altogether surprise me he rides a bicycle. http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf Cheers, Bill Hamilton At 11:04 PM 18/08/2006, you wrote: > >I was wondering if anyone could help me with current or historic >information on the Aero commander 500A in reference to problems with >the wing spar. >I have N 800AC which I have been working to get airworthy for the >last few years and was down to one last problem. I had a fuel leak >which you could smell in the aft cabin. When they pulled the center >fuel bladder out to repair or replace they found the wing spar in my >plane to be 50% deteriorated. > >Are there any ADs or service advisories which would have covered >this problem in the past? >Where can I get replacement parts? > >Thanks, >Jim > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:48 AM PST US From: "" Subject: Re: Commander-List: History of 500A wing spar problems. Excellent infromation. Thanks Phil Stubbs ----- Original Message ----- From: W J R HAMILTON Sent: 8/21/2006 8:41:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: History of 500A wing spar problems. Jim, Try this, I was looking everywhere but the obvious place, I was talking to Swift today, it doesn't altogether surprise me he rides a bicycle. http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf Cheers, Bill Hamilton At 11:04 PM 18/08/2006, you wrote: I was wondering if anyone could help me with current or historic information on the Aero commander 500A in reference to problems with the wing spar. I have N 800AC which I have been working to get airworthy for the last few years and was down to one last problem. I had a fuel leak which you could smell in the aft cabin. When they pulled the center fuel bladder out to repair or replace they found the wing spar in my plane to be 50% deteriorated. Are there any ADs or service advisories which would have covered this problem in the past? Where can I get replacement parts? Thanks, Jim ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:08 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: History of 500A wing spar problems. I think i'm going to take up walking... Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of br549phil@mindspring.com Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 11:39 Subject: Re: Commander-List: History of 500A wing spar problems. Excellent infromation. Thanks Phil Stubbs ----- Original Message ----- From: W J R HAMILTON Sent: 8/21/2006 8:41:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: History of 500A wing spar problems. Jim, Try this, I was looking everywhere but the obvious place, I was talking to Swift today, it doesn't altogether surprise me he rides a bicycle. http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf Cheers, Bill Hamilton At 11:04 PM 18/08/2006, you wrote: I was wondering if anyone could help me with current or historic information on the Aero commander 500A in reference to problems with the wing spar. I have N 800AC which I have been working to get airworthy for the last few years and was down to one last problem. I had a fuel leak which you could smell in the aft cabin. When they pulled the center fuel bladder out to repair or replace they found the wing spar in my plane to be 50% deteriorated. Are there any ADs or service advisories which would have covered this problem in the past? Where can I get replacement parts? Thanks, Jim __________ NOD32 1.1717 (20060821) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:25 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. From: "N395V" --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" I'm sooooooooo0o confused. My impression when I first got into commanders was only 2 planes had had spar failure. 1 allegedly had pre existing spar damage in a hangar door accident that was poorly repaired and the other was 2 tennagers high on Marijuana trying to imitate Bob Hoover. Were there really 24 in flight failures????? -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56152#56152 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:46 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" Milt- I thought there had been a few more- but that they were mostly low-level work aircraft subject to pretty high stress loads as a routine part of their operation. Apparently this isn't the case. This makes me worry... N414C had that hard landing incident in 2001(?)... Was any consideration given to the strain placed on the wing spar in that incident? Crikey... Time for more costly inspections? Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 13:57 Subject: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" I'm sooooooooo0o confused. My impression when I first got into commanders was only 2 planes had had spar failure. 1 allegedly had pre existing spar damage in a hangar door accident that was poorly repaired and the other was 2 tennagers high on Marijuana trying to imitate Bob Hoover. Were there really 24 in flight failures????? -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56152#56152 __________ NOD32 1.1718 (20060821) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:32 PM PST US From: "John Vormbaum" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. --> Commander-List message posted by: "John Vormbaum" Milt, I haven't decided how much credit to grant these reports. I've heard varying stories, including one that the chief investigator was on a crusade against Commander for some bizarre personal reasons. I also have heard that some of the accidents ascribed to spar failure did involve a "spar failure"....when the spar hit the ground at 170kts, it failed. I also think that the airplanes down under were operated in a harsher environment, in a more heavy-handed or less well (factory) supported fashion (this may be erroneous on my part). Regardless, the AD's & SB's are in place, and if the airplanes are so bad, why have spar failures dropped to zero? When's the last time we had spar issues in the flight group? There've been NONE in the almost 8 years I've been participating. I've got 18,000+ hours on my airframe and my spar is fine. /John ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 1:57 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. > --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" > > I'm sooooooooo0o confused. > > My impression when I first got into commanders was only 2 planes had had > spar failure. 1 allegedly had pre existing spar damage in a hangar door > accident that was poorly repaired and the other was 2 tennagers high on > Marijuana trying to imitate Bob Hoover. > > Were there really 24 in flight failures????? > > -------- > Milt > N395V > F1 Rocket > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56152#56152 > > > __________ NOD32 1.1717 (20060821) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ NOD32 1.1717 (20060821) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:21 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. From: "N395V" --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" I believe ALL spar failures have been corrosion related. N414C has had 1 if not 2 AD mandated inspections since the landing and has passed without difficulty. Also note from the commander aero website that those aircraft affected (based on repetetive inspections of the fleet) are few and far between. To my knowledge since the AD there have been no failures. Drink beer get some nooki and don't worry. [Laughing] -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56178#56178 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:49 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. --> Commander-List message posted by: "Robert S. Randazzo" Milt- I'll have to settle for just the beer. First child shows up any day now- so The Mr.s isn't much in the mood for nooki. ;-) Just got the new cabinets for N414C back from the cabinet maker. Nice mahogany finish (not real- but looks great). Redesigned them to suit my needs a bit better- flight manuals/docs within easy reach, an ice drawer capable of holding a 6 pack of coke and ice (reachable from the cockpit, of course!) and two nice, roomy storage bins for any food stuffs the wife might wish to bring along.... Still wending our way through the autopilot certification process... It's holding up progress a bit- but the short term game plan is to get her flying again by end of september. You are correct- 2 spar AD inspections and nothing noted. Third one is due next year. No doubt I'll be seeking advice from this group on where to take her. Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 16:20 Subject: Commander-List: Re: History of 500A wing spar problems. --> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" I believe ALL spar failures have been corrosion related. N414C has had 1 if not 2 AD mandated inspections since the landing and has passed without difficulty. Also note from the commander aero website that those aircraft affected (based on repetetive inspections of the fleet) are few and far between. To my knowledge since the AD there have been no failures. Drink beer get some nooki and don't worry. [Laughing] -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56178#56178 __________ NOD32 1.1718 (20060821) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:59 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander pics and stuff The Mr. RPM I did in 1976 had the blankets on each turbo. That would be N400CH now. Bill Leff ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:47 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander pics and stuff You can get the information you need, via the Freedom of information Act, from the region that certified the STC if the owner does not exists any more. Bill Leff ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:42 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Message regarding autopilot I had a Collins AP-102E. Nobody can fix it. There is one test set in the world! and it is in Asia!! I am currently installing a Century III witch is approved for the 560F Bill Leff --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:03 PM PST US From: "" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Message regarding autopilot Hi Bill, Just found out the Chelton AP-3c is STCd for the 560F. I'm exploring that but was wondering if you got your CIII from salvage 560F or what? Phil Stubbs ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: 8/22/2006 1:46:53 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Message regarding autopilot I had a Collins AP-102E. Nobody can fix it. There is one test set in the world! and it is in Asia!! I am currently installing a Century III witch is approved for the 560F Bill Leff ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:03 PM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: Message regarding autopilot Phil, I just looked on the Chelton web site and no Aero Commanders were listed. What models have they added? Any thing on a 680E? Tylor Hall On Aug 22, 2006, at 1:39 PM, "" wrote: > Hi Bill, > Just found out the Chelton AP-3c is STCd for the 560F. I'm > exploring that but was wondering if you got your CIII from salvage > 560F or what? > > > Phil Stubbs > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: 8/22/2006 1:46:53 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Message regarding autopilot > > I had a Collins AP-102E. Nobody can fix it. There is one test set > in the world! and it is in Asia!! > > I am currently installing a Century III witch is approved for the 560F > > Bill Leff > <> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:52 PM PST US From: "" Subject: Commander-List: SA10439SC.pdf http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/0/2ff5206c961ea963862570990050e72a/$FILE/SA10439SC.pdf Tylor, Here is the link to the STC. Don't know how I missed it in the earlier searches. Unfortunately, Chelton is in the process of moving their ops from TX to OK and are not shipping for about 90 days. After four years whats another few days. SA10439SC covers 560F, 680, 680E, 680F, 720 Phil Stubbs ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:12 PM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: SA10439SC.pdf Phil, That is interesting. It includes round and flat nacelle commanders, but does not included the 500A,B, U, S or the 560, 520??? But it should not be hard to add the other since they have some of both. No long body commanders? I hear it is a good unit. and the cost is reasonable. Tylor Hall On Aug 22, 2006, at 7:44 PM, "" wrote: > > http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/ > 0/2ff5206c961ea963862570990050e72a/$FILE/SA10439SC.pdf > > Tylor, > Here is the link to the STC. Don't know how I missed it in the > earlier searches. > Unfortunately, Chelton is in the process of moving their ops from > TX to OK and are not shipping for about 90 days. After four years > whats another few days. > SA10439SC covers 560F, 680, 680E, 680F, 720 > Phil Stubbs > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:01 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: SA10439SC.pdf Tylor- I've been working with Chelton Aviation Corp (now Wulfsberg) since December of last year when a CAC rep suggested they would be interested to use our airplane as the testbed for their STC on the 685 and long body commanders. Unfortunately, he and one other CAC employee were killed in an accident in April so CAC was rolled up under a sister company, Wulfsberg- and the story has been less than positive since that time. We are working very hard to get the STC completed- but I cannot honestly tell you that Wulfsberg is being very helpful and instead they have foisted us off on a DER that can't get enough information from them to move the process along. Currently we are sitting with an un-certified AP-3C in our commander that cannot be returned to flight because we the promises that have been made to us are not being followed through with. I'm trying everything I can to prevent this from going to litigation- but..... it's looking more and more likely. Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 18:52 Subject: Re: Commander-List: SA10439SC.pdf Phil, That is interesting. It includes round and flat nacelle commanders, but does not included the 500A,B, U, S or the 560, 520??? But it should not be hard to add the other since they have some of both. No long body commanders? I hear it is a good unit. and the cost is reasonable. Tylor Hall On Aug 22, 2006, at 7:44 PM, "" wrote: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/0/2ff520 6c961ea963862570990050e72a/$FILE/SA10439SC.pdf Tylor, Here is the link to the STC. Don't know how I missed it in the earlier searches. Unfortunately, Chelton is in the process of moving their ops from TX to OK and are not shipping for about 90 days. After four years whats another few days. SA10439SC covers 560F, 680, 680E, 680F, 720 Phil Stubbs onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ntribution __________ NOD32 1.1720 (20060822) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com