Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:51 AM - Re: 2006 Fly-In and Convention (Barry Collman)
2. 07:31 AM - It's about time. (steve2)
3. 12:59 PM - Re: It's about time. (Robert S. Randazzo)
4. 01:40 PM - Re: 2006 Fly-In and Convention (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons)
5. 07:21 PM - Goodyear brakes (Dan Farmer)
6. 09:42 PM - Re: Commander Wing Spars (Robert S. Randazzo)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: 2006 Fly-In and Convention |
Hi Moe,
I've just booked my flights and the hotel in Dayton, plus I've reserved
a car from Enterprise. I am arriving in Dayton a day or two early, as I
am going to meet Greg Wartinger to have a look through some of the
'stuff' that Dick collected over the years.
So, I thought that I can drive you around and you won't need to rent a
car.
If Lynn needs a car, I'm sure Enterprise will be able to add her, or
your name, as a driver. I'm hoping to bring my Navman 'in-car' portable
GPS system with me (provided I can load the map software OK!), so we
shouldn't get lost!!
If you think that'll work OK, let me know.
And, I think it's only fair that I make some kind of contribution
towards the fuel. I haven't checked a map of the US, but my feeling is
that by dropping me off in Oklahoma City, you are taking yourself away
from the route you would have normally taken. That makes me feel rather
guilty and I will not be able to sleep at nights. Lunch is one thing,
gallons & gallons of fuel is another!!
Sincere Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Barry,
I would not even consider letting you buy gas, and besides you bought
lunch the last time in Jolly Old England.
Regards,
Moe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:02 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Hi Moe,
If you are absolutely certain that you are not going out of your way
to drop me off, that will be simply great!
There's quite a good restaurant at Wiley Post (KPWA), so I can treat
you (both?) to a spot of late breakfast or lunch! It's literally a few
yards walk from the FBO there.
Let me know how much you need as the fuel contribution, and I'll make
sure I bring enough pieces of the spendable paper!
Sincere Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Hi Barry,
I should be leaving Dayton fairly early Sunday morning, and would be
delighted to drop you off in Oakie City. This would be a good fuel stop
for me, as I go back to Los Angeles.
For many years I have had a "thing" about carry on luggage, and
seldom take anything on the plane with me. Often I travel with a lot of
hardware that couldn't go into the cabin in "the old days". If
everything is well packed it travels quite well. I use the same basic
technique that we use here at the piston factory.well packed but it
should be quick and simple to unpack and repack by the airport
inspectors. Foam can be easily cut with an electric knife to make
excellent computer, cell phone, and camera packing structures.
Regards,
Moe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:31 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Hi All,
If I'm able to attend this year's event, I'd like to ask whether
anyone is going home on the Sunday (September 24th) via, or within
driving distance of, Oklahoma City.
If so, are they willing to drop me off there as talking freight?
I will, of course, be more than willing to make a contribution
towards the fuel costs.
I would like to know whether this is a viable option, as I can then
book all my flights accordingly.
My getting there seems to be contingent on being allowed to take my
camera equipment on board the flights as hand luggage, following the
events of last week.
Somehow, I don't think being forced to having them flown in the
baggage hold is sensible, as they will then run the risk of going
missing, being pilfered, or damaged.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
Message 2
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Subject: | It's about time. |
This just in from a friend. Don't know about where you all fly, but this
has been getting out of hand in the northeast. It's about time.
Steve
The inane practice of using the phrase "any traffic please advise" has
become so wide spread that the FAA has finally included a "do not do
this" in the latest version of the AIM. You will find the following
quote at paragraph 4-1-9 G 1 in the latest version of the AIM:
Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or
intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF.
This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on
the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot
is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots
stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized
Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used
under any condition.
If you do not have a current copy of the AIM, you can reference one
online at:
http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/AIM/
Message 3
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Subject: | It's about time. |
Steve-
Amen.
Having recently transferred from the airline side to the GA side- I'm simply
astounded at the idiocy I see taking place at uncontrolled fields and it is
frequently accompanied by that very "please advise" call. From guys who
take off INTO OPPOSING TRAFFIC in order to save themselves 4 minutes of taxi
time and 30 seconds of flight time, to guys who land straight-in while
calling out their position and expecting those in the pattern to
see-and-avoid.
Makes me wish the warbird carried guns. Manually Applied Natural Selection.
RSR
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve2
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 07:33
Subject: Commander-List: It's about time.
This just in from a friend. Don't know about where you all fly, but this has
been getting out of hand in the northeast. It's about time.
Steve
The inane practice of using the phrase "any traffic please advise" has
become so wide spread that the FAA has finally included a "do not do this"
in the latest version of the AIM. You will find the following quote at
paragraph 4-1-9 G 1 in the latest version of the AIM:
Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or
intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This
procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the
airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is
unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating,
"Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce
Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.
If you do not have a current copy of the AIM, you can reference one online
at:
<http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/AIM/> http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/AIM/
__________ NOD32 1.1725 (20060825) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com
Message 4
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Subject: | 2006 Fly-In and Convention |
Hi Barry,
This sounds just great. I will be happy to ride around with you and save on
the rental car! We are not quite sure of Linn's plans just yet. She has to
be in Minnesota for business at about this time. She may drive down, or
possibly will not show. For the time being, we are not pre-registering her.
Presumably you will be staying at the Hampton Inn, as per the email of
August 10th? Currently, plans are for me to arrive Thursday, September 21,
around noon, although this may change.
Let's stop bickering about the fuel.
Best regards,
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Hi Moe,
I've just booked my flights and the hotel in Dayton, plus I've reserved a
car from Enterprise. I am arriving in Dayton a day or two early, as I am
going to meet Greg Wartinger to have a look through some of the 'stuff' that
Dick collected over the years.
So, I thought that I can drive you around and you won't need to rent a car.
If Lynn needs a car, I'm sure Enterprise will be able to add her, or your
name, as a driver. I'm hoping to bring my Navman 'in-car' portable GPS
system with me (provided I can load the map software OK!), so we shouldn't
get lost!!
If you think that'll work OK, let me know.
And, I think it's only fair that I make some kind of contribution towards
the fuel. I haven't checked a map of the US, but my feeling is that by
dropping me off in Oklahoma City, you are taking yourself away from the
route you would have normally taken. That makes me feel rather guilty and I
will not be able to sleep at nights. Lunch is one thing, gallons & gallons
of fuel is another!!
Sincere Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe - Ross Racing <mailto:moe@rosspistons.com> Pistons
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Barry,
I would not even consider letting you buy gas, and besides you bought lunch
the last time in Jolly Old England.
Regards,
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Hi Moe,
If you are absolutely certain that you are not going out of your way to drop
me off, that will be simply great!
There's quite a good restaurant at Wiley Post (KPWA), so I can treat you
(both?) to a spot of late breakfast or lunch! It's literally a few yards
walk from the FBO there.
Let me know how much you need as the fuel contribution, and I'll make sure I
bring enough pieces of the spendable paper!
Sincere Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe - Ross Racing <mailto:moe@rosspistons.com> Pistons
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Hi Barry,
I should be leaving Dayton fairly early Sunday morning, and would be
delighted to drop you off in Oakie City. This would be a good fuel stop for
me, as I go back to Los Angeles.
For many years I have had a "thing" about carry on luggage, and seldom take
anything on the plane with me. Often I travel with a lot of hardware that
couldn't go into the cabin in "the old days". If everything is well packed
it travels quite well. I use the same basic technique that we use here at
the piston factory.well packed but it should be quick and simple to unpack
and repack by the airport inspectors. Foam can be easily cut with an
electric knife to make excellent computer, cell phone, and camera packing
structures.
Regards,
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention
Hi All,
If I'm able to attend this year's event, I'd like to ask whether anyone is
going home on the Sunday (September 24th) via, or within driving distance
of, Oklahoma City.
If so, are they willing to drop me off there as talking freight?
I will, of course, be more than willing to make a contribution towards the
fuel costs.
I would like to know whether this is a viable option, as I can then book all
my flights accordingly.
My getting there seems to be contingent on being allowed to take my camera
equipment on board the flights as hand luggage, following the events of last
week.
Somehow, I don't think being forced to having them flown in the baggage hold
is sensible, as they will then run the risk of going missing, being
pilfered, or damaged.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
Message 5
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There is a set of Goodyear brakes on ebay. Search aero commander.
dan farmer
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
Message 6
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Subject: | Commander Wing Spars |
Steve-
Neat post, sir!
It sounds like it would be some fun to sit with your dad over a few
(beers/cokes/lemon-aids) and hear about some of that aerial work....
Thanks for posting...
Rob
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve2
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 07:23
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Wing Spars
My Dad and I have always been fascinated by the Commander wing spars. It's
an interesting story whose final chapter is perhaps not written. In the
early years it wasn't corrosion, and I'm not so sure about the cold-bend
theory, though it sounds plausible. (The cap was cold-bent?) The spar caps
are radiused and this I thought was a major issue. The outer station that
broke on the bathtubs wasn't in an area that was cold bent, right? Not being
an engineer however, I'm not contributing to factual information by
speculating.
After 41 years and 9000 hours, some of it aerial survey work, we just went
through our 500B wings at annual to give a thorough inspection to tighten
and replace some smoking rivets on the top and bottom caps in various
locations along the spar.
About a year ago my Dad jotted down some notes to send to Barry Collman,
with my dad still trying to learn more about the origins of the spar
problem. I've read the Aussie reports, and heard a lot of speculation. I
suspect there is someone out there that knows a hell of a lot more, but I
thought I would include some edited messages that add another perspective,
not of an engineer but of an old survey pilot. If nothing else it makes for
a little good reading..... I've deleted anything of a personal nature.
We don't operate or abuse aircraft anything like these guys did...... It was
their job.
What follows are a couple notes my Dad jotted down. Barry, I know my Dad
enjoyed recollecting them after all these years.
Steve
>>>>>>>>
I know the 680E family perhaps as well as anyone, having flown several of
them to just short of eventual destruction, in low altitude (read 100
[that's one hundred] feet in all sorts of mountainous terrain, all over the
world. Most of them had pods, booms and other assorted gadgets stuck on, and
sticking out of them. I made the papers (in the US) from time to time, as
local reporters dubbed the machines as "mystery ships." In fact we were
doing commercial aero-magnetic surveys for multi-national corporations, and
were not at liberty to talk about the work.
The lower spar caps at stations 22 (for sure) and 144 (if I remember
correctly) were deadly, and the planetary gear cases (77:120) on the GSO
480's (model B1A6) would come apart at the most inopportune moments. We
actually launched a starboard propeller into the Red Sea - followed by
having the Shah of Iran - Mohammed Rhezza Palavi - (spelled wrong, I'm sure)
give us a brand new engine, a spare for his own 680-E.
The dynamic counterweights on the crankshafts forced an interesting
convention of pulling the mixtures instead of retarding the throttles, as to
keep the iron wedges from breaking their positioning pins and tearing the
entire engine to pieces - which happened frequently in survey service until
we developed a trick. We used the pressurized air from the centrifugal
blower to maintain compression, so that no instantaneous reversal of torque
would result from the necessary termination of power. We had to keep the
machine within 100 ft. of the down-slope of a cliff as we went to
'fine-bite', and threw out flaps & gear to retard the predictable increase
in airspeed on the way down. It was kind of weird, needing to adjust the
throttles to manage manifold pressure as altitude changed - while the
engines were not even running. On the plus side, we never threw another
counterweight. When the descent was done and power was again required, one
simply pushed the mixture controls forward, and the noise came back. That's
really about as exciting as the exercise ever got. It scared the hell out of
visiting pilots, but there was really nothing to it. If there was a
down-side, it was quite disconcerting to hear the creaks and clinks as the
dimensions of the engines changed with the frightening rate of temperature
drop that resulted from an absence of combustion - with no change in
manifold pressure or RPM. Imagine - 48 inches at 3,800 RPM with no airspeed
and the cylinder head temps pegged - while struggling to clear a peak;
followed by a quick pitch down to maybe -30 degrees, pull the mixtures, all
the rest, and then be entertained by the cylinder head temp needles hanging
a quick left, and racing for their pegs.
Interesting times. We were quite pleased to get 600 hours without a
catastrophic failure. Notwithstanding, we usually ran them til they folded
up anyway. Work time was premium - engines were (in terms of production
time) cheap, and we operated (in the States) in the Restricted category. We
always had spares crated and ready to ship. I ordered one to a job site in
Nevada, thinking the port side was about finished. Two days later, the right
one mulched the front gear assembly. Guess where we hung the spare (using a
tow truck in the desert)? I know; sounds like baloney - but Steven has all
the pictures. The port one ran (poorly) another hundred or so hours til we
finally got back to ISP (home base). We changed that one before it caved in.
I have a ton of this anecdotal and documented junk if you're interested.
Steven has my full collection of slides, enough to bore anyone's spouse to
death.
Steven - Referring to the time I let our neighbor Tom Kanas first try a
takeoff - perhaps you can scan or photocopy for Barry the M&D I sent to FAA
after the starboard control yoke on 41C parted company from the elevator
control rod. Our survival, you'll recall, generated a revision to several
NTSB probable cause findings - changing them from pilot error, to component
failure. You may recall they grounded the whole fleet while we convinced
them that the factory spec for rigging the eye-end at the forward bell crank
was wrong.
Ron
>>>>>>>>
This is CF-ULD (nee N1005S) when I was operating it out of Palu, on
Sulawesi, Indonesia, in around 1969. It started life as a 560, and I think
it was our company that hung the GSO 480's on it to make it into a "680E".
It had gone to our sister Company, Lockwood Survey Corporation Limited - in
Toronto. There were few enough qualified survey pilots in those days, that
we hardly paid attention to which company had what assignment.
This was a former WWII Japanese fighter base with a bumpy 1,000 meter dirt
strip. We always went out over gross (273 gallons in 17 cells, plus all the
survey stuff - and this one had a big Doppler dish on the belly).
The lower cap eventually fractured at station 22 on the port side (we dye
checked both sides after every mission). After stripping the thing to the
bones, I ferried it to Singapore, the closest factory authorized Commander
repair station. The company elected to do the civilian (FAA approved) spar
mod as opposed to the heavier - much more expensive survey mod. My colleague
Bill Moriarty, some months later, ferried the machine to Brazil. My
understanding is that the company had sold it to the Brazilian government.
Last I heard, the excited new pilot came zooming low down the Amazon and did
a pull-up to impress his friends - as the story goes; everything went up
(momentarily) except the left wing. End of story - as I know it.
I flew the other two collectively for probably a couple thousand hours and
could bore a knot off a tree with the stories. I ferried 06S to the Factory
with a cracked lower cap, and worked with engineer Jerry Germin (not sure of
the spelling) to lend a survey pilot's perspective to the crafting of what
became known as the survey mod. I do not know what became of 06S as I left
the Company to form AeroGraphics Corp. (I put my money where my mouth was),
and shortly thereafter LIA went out of business.
You probably know that John Bratton (with his wife aboard) had the
misfortune of going into the ocean off Anchorage with 41C. That was the best
of our Commanders, and by far my favorite.
Prior to Long Island Airways, I flew N9368R in local airline service for
Stanley Pell (Commander Airlines, Inc.) The business was purchased by an
'enthusiast' named Sheldon Bash, and I was tasked to train Herb Baugh, who
was Sheldon's primary instructor, to be the company's pilot. I recall that
Herbie - at various times - put a bunch of wrinkles in the tin and shortened
the life of a pair of beautiful engines (that Stanley babied) with his
inability to stop pushing the throttles so as not to overboost on takeoff.
When you spotted 06S at Luton, it was probably being ferried back from Saudi
Arabia by Bill Moriarty, having completed several hundred thousand line
miles of low level aero-magnetic survey.
Finally: The name Doug Jacob does ring a bell, but in all honesty, I can't
say that I remember why. Now that you've resurrected all these memories, it
may come to me. Could it be that he was flying DC-3s for Bouraq? If so, then
I do remember him.
Kind regards,
Ron
>>>>>>>>
I am curious. How much do you know about the flaw in the spar, and is info
on that subject of interest, or available? The fact that it got into
production the way it was made is, in my opinion, quite stupid. Could the
idiotic radii in the lower cap at stations 22 and the lesser width in
between have been the result of an ''oops" when they found they couldn't get
the rear seat back erect (that was the prevailing myth)?
It's always bothered me that the machine got into production with that
obvious and deadly 'soft spot.'
It was said that Bob Hoover's later aerobatic performances in the new design
were a factory sponsored effort to overcome the bad rep that resulted from
all the fractures (and, tragically, failures).
Can you shed any light?
Thanx,
Ron
>>>>>>>>
Having lived with that anomaly daily for a good number of years, I like many
of my contemporaries became quite intimately familiar with the physical
realities of that particular weakness. I guess I'm somewhat over sensitive
compared to many long-time Commander pilots, as we worked the hell out of
the machines, and the two that were not somewhat 'babied' (that one being
S/N 789-52) each developed fractures at sta. 22 during the time that I was
operating them - one (S/N 605), at my hands.
Having participated (in the role of 'seasoned' pilot and only for ideas,
advice and commentary) at the factory in the crafting of the long strap
'survey-mod' applied to S/N 385-67 after ferrying it there (yet another
almost funny story), I may be able to contribute to your efforts.
How can it be that this major factory reconstruction event appears not to be
recorded in your compilation (not a challenge, but rather a curiosity about
the paper trail)? If you can find out how it came to be, I'd really like to
know about it. Indeed - as I sit here, I'm kind of surprised that I don't.
Have you seen the lower cap as it enters - passes through - and then leaves
the fuselage? It looks like the afterthought of an imbecile ("Duh, we need
more room at the back of the cabin. Let's cut away that metal bar, back to
the flat part."). They did it again, out in the nacelles. That's part of
what the survey mod was about.
The fracture that develops in the radius at station 22 essentially severs
the lower spar cap. That lower cap carries - under tension load - the weight
of the airplane. The upper cap transmits the force of the tension back
toward the longitudinal axis, as an approximately equal compression load on
itself. In the entire wingspan, the spot where the tension load is at its'
peak, is the place where they cut a radius into the metal that carries that
load.
The web (two vertically oriented plates of .060) holds the separation
between upper and lower caps, providing the geometry to make all this work.
Absent an external strap under the cap to bridge the fracture (and thereby
take on the entire tension load) - the wing WILL break away from the
airframe. The web will be simply torn in half like a piece of paper. Pease
note: They were all strapped. That's why most of the fractures were not
catastrophic. Look at any wing root just aft of the upper right corner of
the cabin door. If the laminated .060 straps extend into the nacelle, then
that's the survey mod - and its' ugly.
Of all the many types of airplane I spent a lot of hours flying: Given its
complexity, sophistication and its magnificent performance, operating and
handling characteristics, none was overall as satisfying to me as the 680E.
I dearly loved that breed of machine.
I suspect that I have an experiential anecdote to cover most of the screwy
things that could (indeed - did) go wrong while flying these machines. My
family has given up on my ever writing a book about all this - with Steven,
I think, being the last holdout.
I look forward to your comments.
With kind regards,
Ron
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