---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/25/06: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - Re: 2006 Fly-In and Convention (Barry Collman) 2. 07:31 AM - It's about time. (steve2) 3. 12:59 PM - Re: It's about time. (Robert S. Randazzo) 4. 01:40 PM - Re: 2006 Fly-In and Convention (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons) 5. 07:21 PM - Goodyear brakes (Dan Farmer) 6. 09:42 PM - Re: Commander Wing Spars (Robert S. Randazzo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:55 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi Moe, I've just booked my flights and the hotel in Dayton, plus I've reserved a car from Enterprise. I am arriving in Dayton a day or two early, as I am going to meet Greg Wartinger to have a look through some of the 'stuff' that Dick collected over the years. So, I thought that I can drive you around and you won't need to rent a car. If Lynn needs a car, I'm sure Enterprise will be able to add her, or your name, as a driver. I'm hoping to bring my Navman 'in-car' portable GPS system with me (provided I can load the map software OK!), so we shouldn't get lost!! If you think that'll work OK, let me know. And, I think it's only fair that I make some kind of contribution towards the fuel. I haven't checked a map of the US, but my feeling is that by dropping me off in Oklahoma City, you are taking yourself away from the route you would have normally taken. That makes me feel rather guilty and I will not be able to sleep at nights. Lunch is one thing, gallons & gallons of fuel is another!! Sincere Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:16 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Barry, I would not even consider letting you buy gas, and besides you bought lunch the last time in Jolly Old England. Regards, Moe ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:02 AM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi Moe, If you are absolutely certain that you are not going out of your way to drop me off, that will be simply great! There's quite a good restaurant at Wiley Post (KPWA), so I can treat you (both?) to a spot of late breakfast or lunch! It's literally a few yards walk from the FBO there. Let me know how much you need as the fuel contribution, and I'll make sure I bring enough pieces of the spendable paper! Sincere Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi Barry, I should be leaving Dayton fairly early Sunday morning, and would be delighted to drop you off in Oakie City. This would be a good fuel stop for me, as I go back to Los Angeles. For many years I have had a "thing" about carry on luggage, and seldom take anything on the plane with me. Often I travel with a lot of hardware that couldn't go into the cabin in "the old days". If everything is well packed it travels quite well. I use the same basic technique that we use here at the piston factory.well packed but it should be quick and simple to unpack and repack by the airport inspectors. Foam can be easily cut with an electric knife to make excellent computer, cell phone, and camera packing structures. Regards, Moe ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:31 AM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi All, If I'm able to attend this year's event, I'd like to ask whether anyone is going home on the Sunday (September 24th) via, or within driving distance of, Oklahoma City. If so, are they willing to drop me off there as talking freight? I will, of course, be more than willing to make a contribution towards the fuel costs. I would like to know whether this is a viable option, as I can then book all my flights accordingly. My getting there seems to be contingent on being allowed to take my camera equipment on board the flights as hand luggage, following the events of last week. Somehow, I don't think being forced to having them flown in the baggage hold is sensible, as they will then run the risk of going missing, being pilfered, or damaged. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:26 AM PST US From: "steve2" Subject: Commander-List: It's about time. This just in from a friend. Don't know about where you all fly, but this has been getting out of hand in the northeast. It's about time. Steve The inane practice of using the phrase "any traffic please advise" has become so wide spread that the FAA has finally included a "do not do this" in the latest version of the AIM. You will find the following quote at paragraph 4-1-9 G 1 in the latest version of the AIM: Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition. If you do not have a current copy of the AIM, you can reference one online at: http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/AIM/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:52 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: It's about time. Steve- Amen. Having recently transferred from the airline side to the GA side- I'm simply astounded at the idiocy I see taking place at uncontrolled fields and it is frequently accompanied by that very "please advise" call. From guys who take off INTO OPPOSING TRAFFIC in order to save themselves 4 minutes of taxi time and 30 seconds of flight time, to guys who land straight-in while calling out their position and expecting those in the pattern to see-and-avoid. Makes me wish the warbird carried guns. Manually Applied Natural Selection. RSR _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve2 Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 07:33 Subject: Commander-List: It's about time. This just in from a friend. Don't know about where you all fly, but this has been getting out of hand in the northeast. It's about time. Steve The inane practice of using the phrase "any traffic please advise" has become so wide spread that the FAA has finally included a "do not do this" in the latest version of the AIM. You will find the following quote at paragraph 4-1-9 G 1 in the latest version of the AIM: Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition. If you do not have a current copy of the AIM, you can reference one online at: http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/AIM/ __________ NOD32 1.1725 (20060825) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:54 PM PST US From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi Barry, This sounds just great. I will be happy to ride around with you and save on the rental car! We are not quite sure of Linn's plans just yet. She has to be in Minnesota for business at about this time. She may drive down, or possibly will not show. For the time being, we are not pre-registering her. Presumably you will be staying at the Hampton Inn, as per the email of August 10th? Currently, plans are for me to arrive Thursday, September 21, around noon, although this may change. Let's stop bickering about the fuel. Best regards, Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi Moe, I've just booked my flights and the hotel in Dayton, plus I've reserved a car from Enterprise. I am arriving in Dayton a day or two early, as I am going to meet Greg Wartinger to have a look through some of the 'stuff' that Dick collected over the years. So, I thought that I can drive you around and you won't need to rent a car. If Lynn needs a car, I'm sure Enterprise will be able to add her, or your name, as a driver. I'm hoping to bring my Navman 'in-car' portable GPS system with me (provided I can load the map software OK!), so we shouldn't get lost!! If you think that'll work OK, let me know. And, I think it's only fair that I make some kind of contribution towards the fuel. I haven't checked a map of the US, but my feeling is that by dropping me off in Oklahoma City, you are taking yourself away from the route you would have normally taken. That makes me feel rather guilty and I will not be able to sleep at nights. Lunch is one thing, gallons & gallons of fuel is another!! Sincere Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:16 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Barry, I would not even consider letting you buy gas, and besides you bought lunch the last time in Jolly Old England. Regards, Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi Moe, If you are absolutely certain that you are not going out of your way to drop me off, that will be simply great! There's quite a good restaurant at Wiley Post (KPWA), so I can treat you (both?) to a spot of late breakfast or lunch! It's literally a few yards walk from the FBO there. Let me know how much you need as the fuel contribution, and I'll make sure I bring enough pieces of the spendable paper! Sincere Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi Barry, I should be leaving Dayton fairly early Sunday morning, and would be delighted to drop you off in Oakie City. This would be a good fuel stop for me, as I go back to Los Angeles. For many years I have had a "thing" about carry on luggage, and seldom take anything on the plane with me. Often I travel with a lot of hardware that couldn't go into the cabin in "the old days". If everything is well packed it travels quite well. I use the same basic technique that we use here at the piston factory.well packed but it should be quick and simple to unpack and repack by the airport inspectors. Foam can be easily cut with an electric knife to make excellent computer, cell phone, and camera packing structures. Regards, Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:31 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2006 Fly-In and Convention Hi All, If I'm able to attend this year's event, I'd like to ask whether anyone is going home on the Sunday (September 24th) via, or within driving distance of, Oklahoma City. If so, are they willing to drop me off there as talking freight? I will, of course, be more than willing to make a contribution towards the fuel costs. I would like to know whether this is a viable option, as I can then book all my flights accordingly. My getting there seems to be contingent on being allowed to take my camera equipment on board the flights as hand luggage, following the events of last week. Somehow, I don't think being forced to having them flown in the baggage hold is sensible, as they will then run the risk of going missing, being pilfered, or damaged. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:41 PM PST US From: Dan Farmer Subject: Commander-List: Goodyear brakes There is a set of Goodyear brakes on ebay. Search aero commander. dan farmer --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:43 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Wing Spars Steve- Neat post, sir! It sounds like it would be some fun to sit with your dad over a few (beers/cokes/lemon-aids) and hear about some of that aerial work.... Thanks for posting... Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve2 Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 07:23 Subject: Commander-List: Commander Wing Spars My Dad and I have always been fascinated by the Commander wing spars. It's an interesting story whose final chapter is perhaps not written. In the early years it wasn't corrosion, and I'm not so sure about the cold-bend theory, though it sounds plausible. (The cap was cold-bent?) The spar caps are radiused and this I thought was a major issue. The outer station that broke on the bathtubs wasn't in an area that was cold bent, right? Not being an engineer however, I'm not contributing to factual information by speculating. After 41 years and 9000 hours, some of it aerial survey work, we just went through our 500B wings at annual to give a thorough inspection to tighten and replace some smoking rivets on the top and bottom caps in various locations along the spar. About a year ago my Dad jotted down some notes to send to Barry Collman, with my dad still trying to learn more about the origins of the spar problem. I've read the Aussie reports, and heard a lot of speculation. I suspect there is someone out there that knows a hell of a lot more, but I thought I would include some edited messages that add another perspective, not of an engineer but of an old survey pilot. If nothing else it makes for a little good reading..... I've deleted anything of a personal nature. We don't operate or abuse aircraft anything like these guys did...... It was their job. What follows are a couple notes my Dad jotted down. Barry, I know my Dad enjoyed recollecting them after all these years. Steve >>>>>>>> I know the 680E family perhaps as well as anyone, having flown several of them to just short of eventual destruction, in low altitude (read 100 [that's one hundred] feet in all sorts of mountainous terrain, all over the world. Most of them had pods, booms and other assorted gadgets stuck on, and sticking out of them. I made the papers (in the US) from time to time, as local reporters dubbed the machines as "mystery ships." In fact we were doing commercial aero-magnetic surveys for multi-national corporations, and were not at liberty to talk about the work. The lower spar caps at stations 22 (for sure) and 144 (if I remember correctly) were deadly, and the planetary gear cases (77:120) on the GSO 480's (model B1A6) would come apart at the most inopportune moments. We actually launched a starboard propeller into the Red Sea - followed by having the Shah of Iran - Mohammed Rhezza Palavi - (spelled wrong, I'm sure) give us a brand new engine, a spare for his own 680-E. The dynamic counterweights on the crankshafts forced an interesting convention of pulling the mixtures instead of retarding the throttles, as to keep the iron wedges from breaking their positioning pins and tearing the entire engine to pieces - which happened frequently in survey service until we developed a trick. We used the pressurized air from the centrifugal blower to maintain compression, so that no instantaneous reversal of torque would result from the necessary termination of power. We had to keep the machine within 100 ft. of the down-slope of a cliff as we went to 'fine-bite', and threw out flaps & gear to retard the predictable increase in airspeed on the way down. It was kind of weird, needing to adjust the throttles to manage manifold pressure as altitude changed - while the engines were not even running. On the plus side, we never threw another counterweight. When the descent was done and power was again required, one simply pushed the mixture controls forward, and the noise came back. That's really about as exciting as the exercise ever got. It scared the hell out of visiting pilots, but there was really nothing to it. If there was a down-side, it was quite disconcerting to hear the creaks and clinks as the dimensions of the engines changed with the frightening rate of temperature drop that resulted from an absence of combustion - with no change in manifold pressure or RPM. Imagine - 48 inches at 3,800 RPM with no airspeed and the cylinder head temps pegged - while struggling to clear a peak; followed by a quick pitch down to maybe -30 degrees, pull the mixtures, all the rest, and then be entertained by the cylinder head temp needles hanging a quick left, and racing for their pegs. Interesting times. We were quite pleased to get 600 hours without a catastrophic failure. Notwithstanding, we usually ran them til they folded up anyway. Work time was premium - engines were (in terms of production time) cheap, and we operated (in the States) in the Restricted category. We always had spares crated and ready to ship. I ordered one to a job site in Nevada, thinking the port side was about finished. Two days later, the right one mulched the front gear assembly. Guess where we hung the spare (using a tow truck in the desert)? I know; sounds like baloney - but Steven has all the pictures. The port one ran (poorly) another hundred or so hours til we finally got back to ISP (home base). We changed that one before it caved in. I have a ton of this anecdotal and documented junk if you're interested. Steven has my full collection of slides, enough to bore anyone's spouse to death. Steven - Referring to the time I let our neighbor Tom Kanas first try a takeoff - perhaps you can scan or photocopy for Barry the M&D I sent to FAA after the starboard control yoke on 41C parted company from the elevator control rod. Our survival, you'll recall, generated a revision to several NTSB probable cause findings - changing them from pilot error, to component failure. You may recall they grounded the whole fleet while we convinced them that the factory spec for rigging the eye-end at the forward bell crank was wrong. Ron >>>>>>>> This is CF-ULD (nee N1005S) when I was operating it out of Palu, on Sulawesi, Indonesia, in around 1969. It started life as a 560, and I think it was our company that hung the GSO 480's on it to make it into a "680E". It had gone to our sister Company, Lockwood Survey Corporation Limited - in Toronto. There were few enough qualified survey pilots in those days, that we hardly paid attention to which company had what assignment. This was a former WWII Japanese fighter base with a bumpy 1,000 meter dirt strip. We always went out over gross (273 gallons in 17 cells, plus all the survey stuff - and this one had a big Doppler dish on the belly). The lower cap eventually fractured at station 22 on the port side (we dye checked both sides after every mission). After stripping the thing to the bones, I ferried it to Singapore, the closest factory authorized Commander repair station. The company elected to do the civilian (FAA approved) spar mod as opposed to the heavier - much more expensive survey mod. My colleague Bill Moriarty, some months later, ferried the machine to Brazil. My understanding is that the company had sold it to the Brazilian government. Last I heard, the excited new pilot came zooming low down the Amazon and did a pull-up to impress his friends - as the story goes; everything went up (momentarily) except the left wing. End of story - as I know it. I flew the other two collectively for probably a couple thousand hours and could bore a knot off a tree with the stories. I ferried 06S to the Factory with a cracked lower cap, and worked with engineer Jerry Germin (not sure of the spelling) to lend a survey pilot's perspective to the crafting of what became known as the survey mod. I do not know what became of 06S as I left the Company to form AeroGraphics Corp. (I put my money where my mouth was), and shortly thereafter LIA went out of business. You probably know that John Bratton (with his wife aboard) had the misfortune of going into the ocean off Anchorage with 41C. That was the best of our Commanders, and by far my favorite. Prior to Long Island Airways, I flew N9368R in local airline service for Stanley Pell (Commander Airlines, Inc.) The business was purchased by an 'enthusiast' named Sheldon Bash, and I was tasked to train Herb Baugh, who was Sheldon's primary instructor, to be the company's pilot. I recall that Herbie - at various times - put a bunch of wrinkles in the tin and shortened the life of a pair of beautiful engines (that Stanley babied) with his inability to stop pushing the throttles so as not to overboost on takeoff. When you spotted 06S at Luton, it was probably being ferried back from Saudi Arabia by Bill Moriarty, having completed several hundred thousand line miles of low level aero-magnetic survey. Finally: The name Doug Jacob does ring a bell, but in all honesty, I can't say that I remember why. Now that you've resurrected all these memories, it may come to me. Could it be that he was flying DC-3s for Bouraq? If so, then I do remember him. Kind regards, Ron >>>>>>>> I am curious. How much do you know about the flaw in the spar, and is info on that subject of interest, or available? The fact that it got into production the way it was made is, in my opinion, quite stupid. Could the idiotic radii in the lower cap at stations 22 and the lesser width in between have been the result of an ''oops" when they found they couldn't get the rear seat back erect (that was the prevailing myth)? It's always bothered me that the machine got into production with that obvious and deadly 'soft spot.' It was said that Bob Hoover's later aerobatic performances in the new design were a factory sponsored effort to overcome the bad rep that resulted from all the fractures (and, tragically, failures). Can you shed any light? Thanx, Ron >>>>>>>> Having lived with that anomaly daily for a good number of years, I like many of my contemporaries became quite intimately familiar with the physical realities of that particular weakness. I guess I'm somewhat over sensitive compared to many long-time Commander pilots, as we worked the hell out of the machines, and the two that were not somewhat 'babied' (that one being S/N 789-52) each developed fractures at sta. 22 during the time that I was operating them - one (S/N 605), at my hands. Having participated (in the role of 'seasoned' pilot and only for ideas, advice and commentary) at the factory in the crafting of the long strap 'survey-mod' applied to S/N 385-67 after ferrying it there (yet another almost funny story), I may be able to contribute to your efforts. How can it be that this major factory reconstruction event appears not to be recorded in your compilation (not a challenge, but rather a curiosity about the paper trail)? If you can find out how it came to be, I'd really like to know about it. Indeed - as I sit here, I'm kind of surprised that I don't. Have you seen the lower cap as it enters - passes through - and then leaves the fuselage? It looks like the afterthought of an imbecile ("Duh, we need more room at the back of the cabin. Let's cut away that metal bar, back to the flat part."). They did it again, out in the nacelles. That's part of what the survey mod was about. The fracture that develops in the radius at station 22 essentially severs the lower spar cap. That lower cap carries - under tension load - the weight of the airplane. The upper cap transmits the force of the tension back toward the longitudinal axis, as an approximately equal compression load on itself. In the entire wingspan, the spot where the tension load is at its' peak, is the place where they cut a radius into the metal that carries that load. The web (two vertically oriented plates of .060) holds the separation between upper and lower caps, providing the geometry to make all this work. Absent an external strap under the cap to bridge the fracture (and thereby take on the entire tension load) - the wing WILL break away from the airframe. The web will be simply torn in half like a piece of paper. Pease note: They were all strapped. That's why most of the fractures were not catastrophic. Look at any wing root just aft of the upper right corner of the cabin door. If the laminated .060 straps extend into the nacelle, then that's the survey mod - and its' ugly. Of all the many types of airplane I spent a lot of hours flying: Given its complexity, sophistication and its magnificent performance, operating and handling characteristics, none was overall as satisfying to me as the 680E. I dearly loved that breed of machine. I suspect that I have an experiential anecdote to cover most of the screwy things that could (indeed - did) go wrong while flying these machines. My family has given up on my ever writing a book about all this - with Steven, I think, being the last holdout. I look forward to your comments. With kind regards, Ron __________ NOD32 1.1723 (20060824) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com