---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/24/07: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:53 AM - Engine Failure in N6253X (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 2. 09:12 AM - Re: Engine Failure in N6253X (CloudCraft@aol.com) 3. 09:37 AM - Re: Engine Failure in N6253X (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 4. 09:40 AM - Re: Engine Failure in N6253X (Jerry Sprayberry) 5. 09:52 AM - Re: Fw: worlds smallest airplane (Robert S. Randazzo) 6. 10:01 AM - Re: Engine Failure in N6253X (John Vormbaum) 7. 10:05 AM - Speaking of weird engine issues... (John Vormbaum) 8. 10:33 AM - Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 9. 12:30 PM - Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... (Robert S. Randazzo) 10. 03:00 PM - Re: Engine Failure in N6253X (Tylor Hall) 11. 03:09 PM - Re: Fw: worlds smallest airplane (nico css) 12. 03:15 PM - Re: Engine Failure in N6253X (nico css) 13. 03:26 PM - Re: Engine Failure in N6253X (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 14. 04:00 PM - Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... (John Vormbaum) 15. 04:11 PM - Re: Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... (nico css) 16. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons) 17. 04:39 PM - Re: Switch (Donnie Rose) 18. 09:50 PM - Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... (YOURTCFG@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:05 AM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the left engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHTs going up. We are thinking whats going on here..??. My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luckabout a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one enginenot easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs. The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5 diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like. Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that both engines received new cylinders, both engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the same time. Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. Ill keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:39 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X In a message dated 24-Feb-07 08:56:00 Pacific Standard Time, rcdettmer@charter.net writes: Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. That's an uderstatement! Good job on the O.E.I. approach, landing -- and the really hard part -- taxi! Between Morris and Dave Teeters, you're in good hands and the common denominator does seem to be the new cylinders. You didn't say if the rod failure was with one of the new jugs. I've had bad piston rings on an IGSO-540 pressurize the case and blow oil, so I'm going to vote for that theory -- but do let us know. Tell Morris I say hello as I know you'll be in close contact with him the next few days. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:36 AM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X The new cylinder was the outboard middle cylinder. The failed rod was on the aft outboard cylinder (next to the new cylinder). Thanks for your input. RD DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X In a message dated 24-Feb-07 08:56:00 Pacific Standard Time, rcdettmer@charter.net writes: Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. That's an uderstatement! Good job on the O.E.I. approach, landing -- and the really hard part -- taxi! Between Morris and Dave Teeters, you're in good hands and the common denominator does seem to be the new cylinders. You didn't say if the rod failure was with one of the new jugs. I've had bad piston rings on an IGSO-540 pressurize the case and blow oil, so I'm going to vote for that theory -- but do let us know. Tell Morris I say hello as I know you'll be in close contact with him the next few days. Wing Commander Gordon _____ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 4298082137/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com" 137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom" target="_blank">AOL.com. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:03 AM PST US From: "Jerry Sprayberry" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Randy, You are not at all alone on this one, as I have had a strange Oil disappearing act on my 680, it happened two times on the left side and we found the Oil separator was full of gunk, cleaned and it was again OK. I have just put a new Engine on that side which Morris found for me. I just flew it yesterday for the first time to break-in and after about :20 Minutes Oil Pres went down to 30 PSI, and the Simmonds started acting up so I feathered it and landed, I had dropped 17 quarts of Oil. We cleaned it up and did a ground run this morning and found a broken High Pressure Oil line to the OP Gage that was cracked, It made me feel a lot better knowing the reason for the loss of oil. I was able to taxi all the way back to the Hanger only because I was able to keep my speed up. I hope you find out about yours, keep us posted. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Dettmer, AIA To: Commander Chat Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the "left" engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHT's going up. We are thinking "what's going on here..??". My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luck.about a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one engine.not easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs. The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines.5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5" diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like. Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that "both" engines received new cylinders, "both" engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the "same time". Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. I'll keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:32 AM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane If the Airline Transport Associate and the FAA get their way- that's about all we'll all be able to afford to fly... Robert S. Randazzo _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 23:54 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane Look at the bright side, if he messes up, there's little to clean up and the collateral damage will be negligible. ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane Flying lawnmowers should be illegal. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane He probably meant this little fella here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlV8WJ6N3nU Of course, anyone willing to fly that should probably have their certificate revoked on general principle ;-). ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane So small, it's invisible! (At least via my email server.) Wing Commander Gordon _____ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2076 (20070222) Information __________ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2076 (20070222) Information __________ __________ NOD32 2078 (20070223) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:08 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Engine Failure in N6253X From: "John Vormbaum" Randy, I heard about your adventures from Morris last week....I was going to call but figured you'd be in mourning for a while. I know I would. I'm glad you got down safely, and managed to keep the right one turning. Hopefully Dave & Morris can get you back flying quickly! /John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97084#97084 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:01 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Speaking of weird engine issues... From: "John Vormbaum" There seems to be a rash of engine weirdness going around. I blew both oil coolers, at idle, 5 sec. apart after startup one day. We replaced the coolers, checked everything, started up again on a nice, sunny, 63-deg. day, and blew the left one again. Turns out the filters that are on it (don't remember the name) have fewer oil return holes than the Champions we normally use....which built the pressure in the cooler loop up to 650psi! It looks like the Champions will return the airplane to its normal behavior. The coolers are bench tested to 400psi, and we've discovered that normal pressure for that part of the oil system is about 200-250psi. Oh, and the $2k environmental cleanup charge (to recover the 14 quarts of oil spilled on the ramp), courtesy of Marin County Airports, was a real drag too. /John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97085#97085 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:43 AM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Speaking of weird engine issues... I'll trade your $2K clean-up for my $$$ engine replacement. RD DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: Commander-List: Speaking of weird engine issues... There seems to be a rash of engine weirdness going around. I blew both oil coolers, at idle, 5 sec. apart after startup one day. We replaced the coolers, checked everything, started up again on a nice, sunny, 63-deg. day, and blew the left one again. Turns out the filters that are on it (don't remember the name) have fewer oil return holes than the Champions we normally use....which built the pressure in the cooler loop up to 650psi! It looks like the Champions will return the airplane to its normal behavior. The coolers are bench tested to 400psi, and we've discovered that normal pressure for that part of the oil system is about 200-250psi. Oh, and the $2k environmental cleanup charge (to recover the 14 quarts of oil spilled on the ramp), courtesy of Marin County Airports, was a real drag too. /John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97085#97085 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:15 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Speaking of weird engine issues... John- Are you SERIOUS??? $2000?????? I'm not sure I'd want to live in a place like that.... Robert S. Randazzo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:04 Subject: Commander-List: Speaking of weird engine issues... --> There seems to be a rash of engine weirdness going around. I blew both oil coolers, at idle, 5 sec. apart after startup one day. We replaced the coolers, checked everything, started up again on a nice, sunny, 63-deg. day, and blew the left one again. Turns out the filters that are on it (don't remember the name) have fewer oil return holes than the Champions we normally use....which built the pressure in the cooler loop up to 650psi! It looks like the Champions will return the airplane to its normal behavior. The coolers are bench tested to 400psi, and we've discovered that normal pressure for that part of the oil system is about 200-250psi. Oh, and the $2k environmental cleanup charge (to recover the 14 quarts of oil spilled on the ramp), courtesy of Marin County Airports, was a real drag too. /John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97085#97085 __________ NOD32 2078 (20070223) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:58 PM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Randy, I went on line and found a IGSO-504 at Dodson if you need it. http://www.dodson.com/engines_piston_lycoming.htm What kind of cylinders did Morris use? New, rebuilt Lyc, or the new Superior or EIC? Tylor Hall "Randy Dettmer, AIA" wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} The new cylinder was the outboard middle cylinder. The failed rod was on the aft outboard cylinder (next to the new cylinder). Thanks for your input. RD DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X In a message dated 24-Feb-07 08:56:00 Pacific Standard Time, rcdettmer@charter.net writes: Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. That's an uderstatement! Good job on the O.E.I. approach, landing -- and the really hard part -- taxi! Between Morris and Dave Teeters, you're in good hands and the common denominator does seem to be the new cylinders. You didn't say if the rod failure was with one of the new jugs. I've had bad piston rings on an IGSO-540 pressurize the case and blow oil, so I'm going to vote for that theory -- but do let us know. Tell Morris I say hello as I know you'll be in close contact with him the next few days. Wing Commander Gordon --------------------------------- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 4298082137/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com" 37/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom" target="_blank">AOL.com. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. - The Commander-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:29 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane If the FAA user-fees kick in, one would have one of few laughs by sending a check for $0.02, huh? _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane If the Airline Transport Associate and the FAA get their way- that's about all we'll all be able to afford to fly... Robert S. Randazzo _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 23:54 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane Look at the bright side, if he messes up, there's little to clean up and the collateral damage will be negligible. ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane Flying lawnmowers should be illegal. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane He probably meant this little fella here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlV8WJ6N3nU Of course, anyone willing to fly that should probably have their certificate revoked on general principle ;-). ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: worlds smallest airplane So small, it's invisible! (At least via my email server.) Wing Commander Gordon _____ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2076 (20070222) Information __________ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2076 (20070222) Information __________ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2078 (20070223) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:17 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Sorry to hear about your engines, Randy. My hair stood on end imagining what I would think when the right engine is the suspect one and the left one fails. I bet the guys at SQL could kick themselves for having lost a bit of work there, don't you think? But it's better that you are in good hands now. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:52 AM Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the "left" engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHT's going up. We are thinking "what's going on here..??". My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luck.about a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one engine.not easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs. The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines.5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5" diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like. Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that "both" engines received new cylinders, "both" engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the "same time". Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. I'll keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:26 PM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Thanks for the thought Nico. The shop in SNS is top notch. I am lucky to have dropped out of the sky into such a capable facility. RD DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Sorry to hear about your engines, Randy. My hair stood on end imagining what I would think when the right engine is the suspect one and the left one fails. I bet the guys at SQL could kick themselves for having lost a bit of work there, don't you think? But it's better that you are in good hands now. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:52 AM Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the "left" engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHT's going up. We are thinking "what's going on here..??". My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luck.about a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one engine.not easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs. The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines.5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5" diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like. Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that "both" engines received new cylinders, "both" engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the "same time". Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. I'll keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X DettmerArchitecture 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:25 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... From: "John Vormbaum" rcdettmer(at)charter.net wrote: > I'll trade your $2K clean-up for my $$$ engine replacement. > > RD > > DettmerArchitecture > 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 > 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 > www.dettmerarchitecture.com > > -- Ha, compared to you Randy, I got off easy, both in the financial and adrenaline departments. Robert, Marin County Airport (Gnoss Field) is surrounded on 3 sides by protected wetlands and 4 sides by tree-hugging hippies. I'm as green as the next guy, but $2,200 seems a little excessive for some Pig Blankets & Simple Green. I'll do my best in the future to have any of these issues in the desert, where some kid would come throw kitty litter on the spill & that's the last I'd hear of it. /John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97133#97133 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:55 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... I don't want to drift into unpleasant territory here with that cross-wind, but if folks would vote and vote right we might stop this nonsense. Ordinary folks do not have the time or inclination to be activists, so it takes time for them to realize that they got bamboozled. >----------------------- Ha, compared to you Randy, I got off easy, both in the financial and adrenaline departments. Robert, Marin County Airport (Gnoss Field) is surrounded on 3 sides by protected wetlands and 4 sides by tree-hugging hippies. I'm as green as the next guy, but $2,200 seems a little excessive for some Pig Blankets & Simple Green. I'll do my best in the future to have any of these issues in the desert, where some kid would come throw kitty litter on the spill & that's the last I'd hear of it. /John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97133#97133 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:07 PM PST US From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... A few years ago some guys that I know did crash a Metro Liner out in the Desert (everyone walked away), and as I remember the clean up costs were about $ 40,000.00....federal land don't you know. Moe N680RR 680F(p) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Speaking of weird engine issues... rcdettmer(at)charter.net wrote: > I'll trade your $2K clean-up for my $$$ engine replacement. > > RD > > DettmerArchitecture > 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 > 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 > www.dettmerarchitecture.com > > -- Ha, compared to you Randy, I got off easy, both in the financial and adrenaline departments. Robert, Marin County Airport (Gnoss Field) is surrounded on 3 sides by protected wetlands and 4 sides by tree-hugging hippies. I'm as green as the next guy, but $2,200 seems a little excessive for some Pig Blankets & Simple Green. I'll do my best in the future to have any of these issues in the desert, where some kid would come throw kitty litter on the spill & that's the last I'd hear of it. /John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97133#97133 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:24 PM PST US From: Donnie Rose Subject: Re: Commander-List: Switch Hi Harry, how much do you want for the switch?=0AThank you,=0A=0A =0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Ha rry Merritt =0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASen t: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 6:12:05 AM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: S witch=0A=0A=0AI Have the Switch=0AHarry=0A321 267-3141=0A----- Original Mes sage ----- =0AFrom: BillLeff1@aol.com =0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:27 PM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: Switch=0A=0A=0ATry Lance Aircraft in Dallas. They supply parts for AT-6's and I know they have AN3022-10's. They may have the -11's also. It is just a momentary contact version of that series. The AN3022-10 is part of the th rottle switch assembly p/n 34A6066 on a T-6G=0ATheir number is 800-752-4005 =0A =0ABill Leff=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Command er-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0Ahref="http:/ ========================0A=0A =0A =0A____________________________________________________________________ ________________=0ANo need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go =0Awith Y ahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.=0Ahttp://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:29 PM PST US From: YOURTCFG@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Speaking of weird engine issues... In a message dated 2/24/2007 12:33:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes: I'm not sure I'd want to live in a place like that.... Im sure I DONT WANT TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. jb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.