Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:18 AM - Re: winglets (Donnie Rose)
2. 10:52 AM - Re: winglets (Gary Moshluk)
3. 11:17 AM - Re: winglets (CloudCraft@aol.com)
4. 12:24 PM - Re: winglets [bcc][faked-from][html-rem] (Brock Lorber)
5. 04:05 PM - Re: winglets (MASON CHEVAILLIER)
6. 04:05 PM - Re: winglets (MASON CHEVAILLIER)
7. 06:59 PM - Four Commanders in Harare? (nico css)
8. 07:24 PM - Engine failure (nico css)
9. 11:24 PM - Re: Four Commanders in Harare? (skyhawkc-172@comcast.net)
Message 1
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Thank you Mason and Moe. Do either one of you recall the performance and price
figures on the winglets?
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
N69PT
----- Original Message ----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala@msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:28:25 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets
DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY
ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR
FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING
YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER.
MASON 680Fp 2001M
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets
Donnie,
Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases
the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap
gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the
net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little
bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit.
This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot
wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship
is top drawer.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680F(p)
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM
Subject: Commander-List: winglets
OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like
best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville
so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game.....
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
Message 2
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Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560
that have been tunnel certified?
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets
DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS
ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE
ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND
ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE
HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets
Donnie,
Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing
increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike
Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is
really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have
been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did
increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since
the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at
Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is
top drawer.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680F(p)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie
Rose
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: winglets
OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose
do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks
live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders
game.....
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 3
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In a message dated 03-Jun-07 10:53:56 Pacific Daylight Time,
gmosh@charter.net writes:
Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560 that
have been tunnel certified?
I will ditto what Moe and Mason have said.
Here is a link to the AeroDyne (Commander-Aero) web site with winglet info.
Take a look here for the answer on what models and the prices:
_www.commanderaero.com_ (http://www.commanderaero.com)
Keep in mind that there are bootleg / illegal winglets out there.
The AeroDyne winglets are STC'd, have had their design wind tunnel tested at
Wright-Patterson AFB and are made by a PMA shop in business to build aircraft
parts.
I've seen bootleg winglets get taken off in pre-buy inspections when they
were found out. That wasn't happy news for neither the seller nor the buyer.
Various claims will be made about their effect on performance. I've flown a
lot of piston and turbine Commanders with and without. I do notice better
high altitude climb in the turbine Commanders.
The piston models with the winglets have also had flap gap seals, so I can't
say which mod is responsible for what. Among those upgraded piston aircraft,
it seems to be all over the map: I've seen zero performance increase and I've
seen as much as 8 KIAS increase.
In my opinion (from experience) a wingleted Commander stalls later but the
stall break is much more abrupt. However, the time you spend in that flight
regime is what ... three seconds every two years during your Flight Review?
One thing for sure, depending on whether your Commander has nose mounted
lights or Grimes lights, the AeroDyne winglets are worth the money for recognition
lights alone (strobes install within the lens as well) regardless of any
performance bonus.
Thanks for letting us spend your money!
Wing Commander Gordon
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 4
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Subject: | winglets [bcc][faked-from][html-rem] |
The major performance increase from winglets is an 80-85% increase in
nose prints on the outside of the cabin windows.
Brock
Message 5
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dr, px appox $5000. ck web site for performance or call commander aero
they will be glad to help with both. ps my 680fp had illegal winglets
when I bot it, and an illegal prop. not something your normally catch
in a pre buy. mason
----- Original Message -----
From: Donnie Rose<mailto:aquadiver99@yahoo.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets
Thank you Mason and Moe. Do either one of you recall the performance
and price figures on the winglets?
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
N69PT
----- Original Message ----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala@msn.com<mailto:kamala@msn.com>>
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:28:25 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets
DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS
ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE
ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND
ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE
HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons<mailto:moe@rosspistons.com>
To:
commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets
Donnie,
Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing
increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike
Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is
really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have
been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did
increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since
the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at
Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is
top drawer.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680F(p)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie
Rose
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: winglets
OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose
do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks
live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders
game.....
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast <>
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.<>
title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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pbmRlcg-->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
Message 6
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kg, eloquent as usual. mason
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft@aol.com<mailto:CloudCraft@aol.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets
In a message dated 03-Jun-07 10:53:56 Pacific Daylight Time,
gmosh@charter.net<mailto:gmosh@charter.net> writes:
Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my
560 that have been tunnel certified?
I will ditto what Moe and Mason have said.
Here is a link to the AeroDyne (Commander-Aero) web site with winglet
info.
Take a look here for the answer on what models and the prices:
www.commanderaero.com<http://www.commanderaero.com/>
Keep in mind that there are bootleg / illegal winglets out there.
The AeroDyne winglets are STC'd, have had their design wind tunnel
tested at Wright-Patterson AFB and are made by a PMA shop in business to
build aircraft parts.
I've seen bootleg winglets get taken off in pre-buy inspections when
they were found out. That wasn't happy news for neither the seller nor
the buyer.
Various claims will be made about their effect on performance. I've
flown a lot of piston and turbine Commanders with and without. I do
notice better high altitude climb in the turbine Commanders.
The piston models with the winglets have also had flap gap seals, so I
can't say which mod is responsible for what. Among those upgraded
piston aircraft, it seems to be all over the map: I've seen zero
performance increase and I've seen as much as 8 KIAS increase.
In my opinion (from experience) a wingleted Commander stalls later but
the stall break is much more abrupt. However, the time you spend in
that flight regime is what ... three seconds every two years during your
Flight Review?
One thing for sure, depending on whether your Commander has nose
mounted lights or Grimes lights, the AeroDyne winglets are worth the
money for recognition lights alone (strobes install within the lens as
well) regardless of any performance bonus.
Thanks for letting us spend your money!
Wing Commander Gordon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at
AOL.com<http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
Message 7
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Subject: | Four Commanders in Harare? |
If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an
airport to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe.
At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a
Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby
wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image
shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing
edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the wing's
trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at the
fuselage forward of the wing's leading edge, it appears as if the propellers
would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying
features are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of
the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that
Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if
the nose is partly obscured by the hangar's shadow, but it's larger than the
previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the
plane in the rough east of runway 32's threshold. Is that an abandoned
Commander?
Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry?
Nico
Message 8
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It's an old accident in an Aztec, but its relevance is eternal and for
everyone flying twins. I thought it might be appropriate reading material.
It is indeed a pity that engine out training in take-off configuration
wasn't given, if I understand the report correctly.
http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/182396-1.html
Nico
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Four Commanders in Harare? |
Nico,
I seen yours and agree. How bout El Dorado International Airport it's a large
airport NW of Bogota Colubia, I found what appears to be (2) near the Learjet
and 1 a little farther away on the ramp, they seem pretty easy to spot with the
tell tailed foreward tapered wing. What do you think?
b
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an airport
to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe.
At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a Commander. The
Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby wings and seems
to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image shows the taper of
the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing edge, the latter being
the engine nacelles protruding past the wings trailing edge, which might not be
unique to Commanders but, looking at the fuselage forward of the wings leading
edge, it appears as if the propellers would be exactly behind the cockpit row
of seats. If these identifying features are accurate, then there is another
Commander immediately east of the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one
further east of that Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might
be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured by the hangars shadow, but its
larger than the previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally,
look at the plane in the rough east of runway 32
s thr
eshold. Is that an abandoned Commander?
Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry?
Nico
<html><body>
<DIV>Nico,</DIV>
<DIV>I seen yours and agree. How bout El Dorado International Airport it's
a large airport NW of Bogota Colubia, I found what appears to be (2) near the
Learjet and 1 a little farther away on the ramp, they seem pretty easy to spot
with the tell tailed foreward tapered wing. What do you think?</DIV>
<DIV>b</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
<BR>
<META content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)" name=Generator><?xml:namespace
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare
Charles Prince, which is an airport to the north of <?xml:namespace prefix
= st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Harare</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Zimbabwe</st1:country-region></st1:place>.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most
twin seems to be a Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its
left shows its stubby wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander.
The Commander image shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances
at the trailing edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the
wings trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at
the fuselage forward of the wings leading edge, it appears as if the propellers
would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying features
are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of the intersection
of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that Commander, with its
nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured
by the hangars shadow, but its larger tha
n the
previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the plane
in the rough east of runway 32s threshold. Is that an abandoned Commander?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Does anyone have on-the-ground information
about these planes? Sir Barry?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Nico<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><PRE><B><FONT
face="courier new,courier" size=2 color000000?>
</B></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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