---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/03/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:18 AM - Re: winglets (Donnie Rose) 2. 10:52 AM - Re: winglets (Gary Moshluk) 3. 11:17 AM - Re: winglets (CloudCraft@aol.com) 4. 12:24 PM - Re: winglets [bcc][faked-from][html-rem] (Brock Lorber) 5. 04:05 PM - Re: winglets (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 6. 04:05 PM - Re: winglets (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 7. 06:59 PM - Four Commanders in Harare? (nico css) 8. 07:24 PM - Engine failure (nico css) 9. 11:24 PM - Re: Four Commanders in Harare? (skyhawkc-172@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:42 AM PST US From: Donnie Rose Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Thank you Mason and Moe. Do either one of you recall the performance and price figures on the winglets? Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 N69PT ----- Original Message ---- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:28:25 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:53 AM PST US From: "Gary Moshluk" Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560 that have been tunnel certified? ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:17:33 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets In a message dated 03-Jun-07 10:53:56 Pacific Daylight Time, gmosh@charter.net writes: Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560 that have been tunnel certified? I will ditto what Moe and Mason have said. Here is a link to the AeroDyne (Commander-Aero) web site with winglet info. Take a look here for the answer on what models and the prices: _www.commanderaero.com_ (http://www.commanderaero.com) Keep in mind that there are bootleg / illegal winglets out there. The AeroDyne winglets are STC'd, have had their design wind tunnel tested at Wright-Patterson AFB and are made by a PMA shop in business to build aircraft parts. I've seen bootleg winglets get taken off in pre-buy inspections when they were found out. That wasn't happy news for neither the seller nor the buyer. Various claims will be made about their effect on performance. I've flown a lot of piston and turbine Commanders with and without. I do notice better high altitude climb in the turbine Commanders. The piston models with the winglets have also had flap gap seals, so I can't say which mod is responsible for what. Among those upgraded piston aircraft, it seems to be all over the map: I've seen zero performance increase and I've seen as much as 8 KIAS increase. In my opinion (from experience) a wingleted Commander stalls later but the stall break is much more abrupt. However, the time you spend in that flight regime is what ... three seconds every two years during your Flight Review? One thing for sure, depending on whether your Commander has nose mounted lights or Grimes lights, the AeroDyne winglets are worth the money for recognition lights alone (strobes install within the lens as well) regardless of any performance bonus. Thanks for letting us spend your money! Wing Commander Gordon ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets [bcc][faked-from][html-rem] From: "Brock Lorber" The major performance increase from winglets is an 80-85% increase in nose prints on the outside of the cabin windows. Brock ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:32 PM PST US From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets dr, px appox $5000. ck web site for performance or call commander aero they will be glad to help with both. ps my 680fp had illegal winglets when I bot it, and an illegal prop. not something your normally catch in a pre buy. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: Donnie Rose To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Thank you Mason and Moe. Do either one of you recall the performance and price figures on the winglets? Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 N69PT ----- Original Message ---- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER > To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:28:25 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast <> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.<> title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:41 PM PST US From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets kg, eloquent as usual. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets In a message dated 03-Jun-07 10:53:56 Pacific Daylight Time, gmosh@charter.net writes: Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560 that have been tunnel certified? I will ditto what Moe and Mason have said. Here is a link to the AeroDyne (Commander-Aero) web site with winglet info. Take a look here for the answer on what models and the prices: www.commanderaero.com Keep in mind that there are bootleg / illegal winglets out there. The AeroDyne winglets are STC'd, have had their design wind tunnel tested at Wright-Patterson AFB and are made by a PMA shop in business to build aircraft parts. I've seen bootleg winglets get taken off in pre-buy inspections when they were found out. That wasn't happy news for neither the seller nor the buyer. Various claims will be made about their effect on performance. I've flown a lot of piston and turbine Commanders with and without. I do notice better high altitude climb in the turbine Commanders. The piston models with the winglets have also had flap gap seals, so I can't say which mod is responsible for what. Among those upgraded piston aircraft, it seems to be all over the map: I've seen zero performance increase and I've seen as much as 8 KIAS increase. In my opinion (from experience) a wingleted Commander stalls later but the stall break is much more abrupt. However, the time you spend in that flight regime is what ... three seconds every two years during your Flight Review? One thing for sure, depending on whether your Commander has nose mounted lights or Grimes lights, the AeroDyne winglets are worth the money for recognition lights alone (strobes install within the lens as well) regardless of any performance bonus. Thanks for letting us spend your money! Wing Commander Gordon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:25 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Commander-List: Four Commanders in Harare? If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an airport to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe. At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the wing's trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at the fuselage forward of the wing's leading edge, it appears as if the propellers would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying features are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured by the hangar's shadow, but it's larger than the previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the plane in the rough east of runway 32's threshold. Is that an abandoned Commander? Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry? Nico ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:17 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Commander-List: Engine failure It's an old accident in an Aztec, but its relevance is eternal and for everyone flying twins. I thought it might be appropriate reading material. It is indeed a pity that engine out training in take-off configuration wasn't given, if I understand the report correctly. http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/182396-1.html Nico ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:29 PM PST US From: skyhawkc-172@comcast.net Subject: Re: Commander-List: Four Commanders in Harare? Nico, I seen yours and agree. How bout El Dorado International Airport it's a large airport NW of Bogota Colubia, I found what appears to be (2) near the Learjet and 1 a little farther away on the ramp, they seem pretty easy to spot with the tell tailed foreward tapered wing. What do you think? b -------------- Original message -------------- From: "nico css" If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an airport to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe. At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the wings trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at the fuselage forward of the wings leading edge, it appears as if the propellers would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying features are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured by the hangars shadow, but its larger than the previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the plane in the rough east of runway 32 s thr eshold. Is that an abandoned Commander? Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry? Nico
Nico,
I seen yours and agree.  How bout El Dorado International Airport it's a large airport NW of Bogota Colubia, I found what appears to be (2) near the Learjet and 1 a little farther away on the ramp, they seem pretty easy to spot with the tell tailed foreward tapered wing. What do you think?
b
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>

If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an airport to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe.

At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the wings trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at the fuselage forward of the wings leading edge, it appears as if the propellers would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying features are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured by the hangars shadow, but its larger tha n the previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the plane in the rough east of runway 32s threshold. Is that an abandoned Commander?

Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry?

Nico

 

 

 

 
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