---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/27/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:03 AM - fore and aft loading vs. performance (Steve @ Col-East) 2. 08:37 AM - Re: fore and aft loading vs. performance (CloudCraft@aol.com) 3. 09:32 AM - Re: SPAM-LOW: fore and aft loading vs. performance (Robert S. Randazzo) 4. 09:37 AM - Re: TCFG membership (WINGFLYER1@aol.com) 5. 11:05 AM - Re: fore and aft loading vs. performance (Steve @ Col-East) 6. 11:10 AM - Re: fore and aft loading vs. performance (CloudCraft@aol.com) 7. 11:20 AM - Re: SPAM-LOW: fore and aft loading vs. performance (Steve @ Col-East) 8. 11:54 AM - Re: TCFG membership (Donnie Rose) 9. 01:43 PM - Re: SPAM-LOW: fore and aft loading vs. performance (David Owens) 10. 01:44 PM - Re: SPAM-LOW: fore and aft loading vs. performance (David Owens) 11. 02:46 PM - fore and aft loading vs. performance (Steve @ Col-East) 12. 04:02 PM - Aero Commander 560 For Sale (brent mueller) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:50 AM PST US From: "Steve @ Col-East" Subject: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance Gang, I know in THEORY that an aft loading affects cruise and stall speeds, and the book answer as to why. Has anyone messed around with loading configurations and seen a real world difference? How much? Seing as how we're well to the front, and could go out of the envelope in certain configurations, I'm curious as to whether ballasting could actually pay off by increased efficiency. Was it cmd Gordon that mentioned something about ballast a couple threads back? What's the history on that? Steve ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:31 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance In a message dated 27-Jul-07 06:04:40 Pacific Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: Seing as how we're well to the front, and could go out of the envelope in certain configurations, I'm curious as to whether ballasting could actually pay off by increased efficiency. As for the history of ballasting, as I understand it, when enhancements came about such as the Shrike nose, 3 blade props and pilot doors, the added weight brought the C.G. too far forward. The factory began placing lead plates on the aft tail stringers, and that's what's been done with pre-Shrike models when noses, doors and panel mount avionics were put on as after market mods. There is the anecdotal tale of Mr. RPM doing a demo for a flying missionary group who were interested in the MR. RPM conversion of the AC-680-FL(P). They had a high altitude / short field requirement that had to be demonstrated so MR. RPM did the trials at Big Bear Lake ... and loaded for maximum aft C.G. to achieve the performance needed. Wing Commander Gordon ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:07 AM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance Steve- When racing our T-6, we shift the CG all the way to the rear limit. This adds a significant amount of speed vs. allowing the CG to remain where the designers put it. That being the case- I'd expect to see the same on any airplane's CG range.. We are currently "Weighing" the pro's/con's of the CG location on N414C when we finally get her on the scales. So much equipment came out of the empennage mounted racks that the CG has likely come forward some. This is a good thing for single engine control- but a bad thing for cruise speeds.. This airplane already had 70lbs of lead ballast weight bolted to the very tip of the tail.. Robert Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve @ Col-East Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 6:03 AM Subject: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance Gang, I know in THEORY that an aft loading affects cruise and stall speeds, and the book answer as to why. Has anyone messed around with loading configurations and seen a real world difference? How much? Seing as how we're well to the front, and could go out of the envelope in certain configurations, I'm curious as to whether ballasting could actually pay off by increased efficiency. Was it cmd Gordon that mentioned something about ballast a couple threads back? What's the history on that? Steve __________ NOD32 2425 (20070727) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:13 AM PST US From: WINGFLYER1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: TCFG membership Donnie, I f you have a seat left let me know. My 680 is still down for repairs and not sure if it will be ready by fly in time. I`m just up the road in Nashville, Tn. area Thanks Gil 615-373-5703 ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:48 AM PST US From: "Steve @ Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance Do the Shrikes then come out of the factory with lead ballast? ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 11:35 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance In a message dated 27-Jul-07 06:04:40 Pacific Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: Seing as how we're well to the front, and could go out of the envelope in certain configurations, I'm curious as to whether ballasting could actually pay off by increased efficiency. As for the history of ballasting, as I understand it, when enhancements came about such as the Shrike nose, 3 blade props and pilot doors, the added weight brought the C.G. too far forward. The factory began placing lead plates on the aft tail stringers, and that's what's been done with pre-Shrike models when noses, doors and panel mount avionics were put on as after market mods. There is the anecdotal tale of Mr. RPM doing a demo for a flying missionary group who were interested in the MR. RPM conversion of the AC-680-FL(P). They had a high altitude / short field requirement that had to be demonstrated so MR. RPM did the trials at Big Bear Lake ... and loaded for maximum aft C.G. to achieve the performance needed. Wing Commander Gordon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:46 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance In a message dated 27-Jul-07 11:06:37 Pacific Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: Do the Shrikes then come out of the factory with lead ballast? To my knowledge, yes. WCG ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:42 AM PST US From: "Steve @ Col-East" Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance This stuff is good information. When I did some calcs of loading scenarios I thought I had to be wrong..... We too have now removed most of the stuff from the 'radio room'. I added a line to my spreadsheet for 'ballast' and I am surprised at how much the ship can usefully add out at the tailcone bulkhead location. (Where we would really put it, I'm not sure.... I'd want to look at what has been done in the past.) We got to kick this around some, check my numbers, and decide what we want to do. But its good to know that I'm not making this up and there is a history of some of these aircraft using ballast..... T-6's are up to what nowadays, 225mph or better? I've played a little with rudder trim, and I'm pretty sure tweaking that even after a centered ball can gain a couple knots. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 12:30 PM Subject: RE: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance Steve- When racing our T-6, we shift the CG all the way to the rear limit. This adds a significant amount of speed vs. allowing the CG to remain where the designers put it. That being the case- I'd expect to see the same on any airplane's CG range.. We are currently "Weighing" the pro's/con's of the CG location on N414C when we finally get her on the scales. So much equipment came out of the empennage mounted racks that the CG has likely come forward some. This is a good thing for single engine control- but a bad thing for cruise speeds.. This airplane already had 70lbs of lead ballast weight bolted to the very tip of the tail.. Robert Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve @ Col-East Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 6:03 AM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance Gang, I know in THEORY that an aft loading affects cruise and stall speeds, and the book answer as to why. Has anyone messed around with loading configurations and seen a real world difference? How much? Seing as how we're well to the front, and could go out of the envelope in certain configurations, I'm curious as to whether ballasting could actually pay off by increased efficiency. Was it cmd Gordon that mentioned something about ballast a couple threads back? What's the history on that? Steve http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. com __________ NOD32 2425 (20070727) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:51 AM PST US From: Donnie Rose Subject: Re: Commander-List: TCFG membership Hey Gil, as of right now there are three seats left and you are welcome, ju st let me know.=0AN69PT=0A =0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A-- --- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "WINGFLYER1@aol.com" =0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, July 27, 2007 11:29:28 AM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: TCFG membership=0A=0A=0ADonnie, I f you h ave a seat left let me know. My 680 is still down for repairs and not sure if it will be ready by fly in time. I`m just up the road in Nashville, Tn. area Thanks Gil 615-373-5703=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AGet a sneak peek of the al ===========0A=0A=0A =0A__________________________ __________________________________________________________=0ANeed a vacatio n? Get great deals=0Ato amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.=0Ahttp://travel.ya hoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:06 PM PST US From: "David Owens" Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance We also have the lead ballast in the tail of the 500A... David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:31 PM PST US From: "David Owens" Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance What does SPAM LOW MEAN??? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:01 PM PST US From: "Steve @ Col-East" Subject: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance David, I was wondering about you guys. You've got the camera installation and a Colemill conversion, if I remember right. Any idea how much lead, and where it was put? As for the SPAM-LOW, maybe its the list's way of telling me to quit sending so many messages. (I'm almost done, honest.) ----- Original Message ----- From: David Owens To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 4:41 PM Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Commander-List: fore and aft loading vs. performance We also have the lead ballast in the tail of the 500A... David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:49 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Aero Commander 560 For Sale From: "brent mueller" We are listing N224HA for Sale. 1957 Aero Commander 560E N224HA serial #567 March 07 Annual Anyone intererested can pm me... Thanks Brent - N224HA 763-717-9721 Will try and post pics soon... 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