---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/06/07: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:43 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Steve at Col-East) 2. 06:04 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Steve at Col-East) 3. 06:27 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (CloudCraft@aol.com) 4. 07:01 AM - Re: Pressurization Control Panel (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons) 5. 07:14 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Steve at Col-East) 6. 07:45 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Tylor Hall) 7. 07:58 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (CloudCraft@aol.com) 8. 08:13 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons) 9. 08:16 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (William Boelte) 10. 08:49 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Bruce Campbell) 11. 09:06 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Tylor Hall) 12. 09:29 AM - July 2000 Article, Commander Landing Gear Control (CloudCraft@aol.com) 13. 09:34 AM - Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? (Bruce Campbell) 14. 09:37 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons) 15. 09:38 AM - Re: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? (yourtcfg@aol.com) 16. 10:00 AM - Re: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Se... (CloudCraft@aol.com) 17. 10:05 AM - Re: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons) 18. 10:08 AM - Re: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Se... (Bruce Campbell) 19. 10:12 AM - Re: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? (Bruce Campbell) 20. 10:21 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Steve at Col-East) 21. 10:51 AM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (John Vormbaum) 22. 12:52 PM - Re: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? (Steve at Col-East) 23. 04:45 PM - Outflow Valve (Moe - Ross Racing Pistons) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:30 AM PST US From: "Steve at Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? John, I made this up several years ago now..... Please carefully go through this to see that it meets your needs before using...... If nothing else, it might save you some time typing if you make your own. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 5:15 PM Subject: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > > Hello all, > > Somewhere recently I managed to misplace my kneeboard-sized laminated > normal & emergency procedures checklists for my 500-B. Rather than start > over from scratch, I'm wondering if anyone has 500-B checklist documents > in MS Word or similar format that they could share? > > Thanks in advance, > > /John > N353CC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127624#127624 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:29 AM PST US From: "Steve at Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? P.S. Check out each of the pages (sheets). Lots of goodies..... Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve at Col-East" Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:42 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > John, > > I made this up several years ago now..... > > Please carefully go through this to see that it meets your needs before > using...... > > If nothing else, it might save you some time typing if you make your own. > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Vormbaum" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 5:15 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > > >> >> Hello all, >> >> Somewhere recently I managed to misplace my kneeboard-sized laminated >> normal & emergency procedures checklists for my 500-B. Rather than start >> over from scratch, I'm wondering if anyone has 500-B checklist documents >> in MS Word or similar format that they could share? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> /John >> N353CC >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127624#127624 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:31 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for making it public. Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the factory writes them. If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before engine start. You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew from Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I advocate doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is very important. It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible if the gear selector is in the full down detent. I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. Wing Commander Gordon http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:58 AM PST US From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Pressurization Control Panel Hi Bill, Using your suggestion, I taped off the two static ports by the pilot's window & copilot's window and pressurized on the ground, and sure enough the maximum differential that I could get was 1.5, which is the same that I got with the static ports not taped. When the outflow valve was blocked off the pressure went up to 2.8 quickly, regardless of whether the static ports were taped off or not. It appears that it is time to replace the outflow valve. Thanks very much for the helpful advice the other day on the phone. I certainly do appreciate it. Best regards, Moe Mills _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:08 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressurization Control Panel Moe Call me about this problem. Bill Leff 937-369-3334 _____ . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:15 AM PST US From: "Steve at Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Thanks for the comments. I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of anything. The W&B spreadsheet is one of them, based on the very nice TasAir sheet. I am now trying to track down the tables from SB 199 to make sure it is following the latest update. Yes of course, free and correct. I have added it to the sheet in the pre-start column. It was always in my 'personal' routine, but I did not have it in the sheet. Prior to entering a runway I have used something that grew from a 'BLT' check. A (B L L T T T F F F) check, for Boost, Lights, Latch, Trim, Transponder, Time, Flaps, Fuel, Free (and correct)), before asking if everybody is belted in, secure (door) and ready to go. Now the pin I was not as sure about. My thinking was that in a go-around situation, you've made things a little more complicated to get cleaned up. Is that over-thinking it too much? moving the pin would only require a second more....... By the way, the spreadsheet was made so that each sheet printed out to fit on a small sheet of stock so that each of the sheets made a little book that could be laminated and carried.... Just flip to the appropriate page.... Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for making it public. Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the factory writes them. If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before engine start. You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew from Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I advocate doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is very important. It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible if the gear selector is in the full down detent. I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. Wing Commander Gordon AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:17 AM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Gordon makes a good observation about the external rudder lock. I am looking at a 680 and it was pointed out that the 680 has an external down lock gear pin on each landing gear that must be pulled just prior to engine start. This would need to be added to a post shut down list, put down lock pin in and gust lock in Rudder with rubber chicken attached. ;) Where I am flying, they have an external walk around check list that we need to complete. Is there one for a Twin Commander? I was tough to pull the gust rudder lock as part of my walk around, but I never saw a check list. Since this list is on an Excel spread sheet, it can be modified to fit each aircraft. Can we get it posted on the web site? Tylor Hall On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:13 AM, Steve at Col-East wrote: > Thanks for the comments. I do have some misgivings about posting my > 'versions' of anything. The W&B spreadsheet is one of them, based > on the very nice TasAir sheet. I am now trying to track down the > tables from SB 199 to make sure it is following the latest update. > > Yes of course, free and correct. I have added it to the sheet in > the pre-start column. It was always in my 'personal' routine, but I > did not have it in the sheet. Prior to entering a runway I have > used something that grew from a 'BLT' check. A (B L L T T T F F F) > check, for Boost, Lights, Latch, Trim, Transponder, Time, Flaps, > Fuel, Free (and correct)), before asking if everybody is belted in, > secure (door) and ready to go. > > Now the pin I was not as sure about. My thinking was that in a go- > around situation, you've made things a little more complicated to > get cleaned up. Is that over-thinking it too much? moving the pin > would only require a second more....... > > > By the way, the spreadsheet was made so that each sheet printed out > to fit on a small sheet of stock so that each of the sheets made a > little book that could be laminated and carried.... Just flip to > the appropriate page.... > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: CloudCraft@aol.com > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:26 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > > Steve, > > That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for > making it public. > > Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the > factory writes them. > > If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching > a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: > > The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before > engine start. > You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder > locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew > from Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I > advocate doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! > > Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is > very important. > It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way > down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible > if the gear selector is in the full down detent. > > I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may > have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above > ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use > Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go > thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > AOL.com. > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:07 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? In a message dated 06-Aug-07 07:18:06 Pacific Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of anything. Yo ho! You are so right, Steve! Checklists are always a work in progress. And, you can produce what you think is the perfect checklist after a lifetime of edits and tweaking and the first person you show it to will look at it and say it's worthless. Then there's the problem of your checklist being found at the bottom of a crater with a wrecked airplane on top of it ... You'll probably hear from the bereaved widow's attorney. As to the safety latch on the landing gear: your comment is always everyone's first reaction to the idea of safetying the gear upon extension. It is my belief that it's a simple thing to flick out of the way on a go-around or missed approach. But then again, I used to play flamenco guitar and can use my right hand pinkie and ring finger to move the latch while holding the gear handle with my thumb, index and middle finger. Ole! ;-) If the 3/4 of a second it takes to unsafety the gear is the difference between a successful go-around, are you really in position to make a go-around? There are two distinct camps on this issue and now you know where my tent is pitched. I rather flick (or fumble with) the gear safety, then to have a nose wheel fold back on landing. Wing Commander Gordon http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:11 AM PST US From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Tylor, Please explain about the external down lock gear lock pins on each landing gear that must be pulled just prior to engine start. I don't think that my 680F(p) has such a device. Thanx! Moe N680RR 680F(p) _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Gordon makes a good observation about the external rudder lock. I am looking at a 680 and it was pointed out that the 680 has an external down lock gear pin on each landing gear that must be pulled just prior to engine start. This would need to be added to a post shut down list, put down lock pin in and gust lock in Rudder with rubber chicken attached. ;) Where I am flying, they have an external walk around check list that we need to complete. Is there one for a Twin Commander? I was tough to pull the gust rudder lock as part of my walk around, but I never saw a check list. Since this list is on an Excel spread sheet, it can be modified to fit each aircraft. Can we get it posted on the web site? Tylor Hall On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:13 AM, Steve at Col-East wrote: Thanks for the comments. I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of anything. The W&B spreadsheet is one of them, based on the very nice TasAir sheet. I am now trying to track down the tables from SB 199 to make sure it is following the latest update. Yes of course, free and correct. I have added it to the sheet in the pre-start column. It was always in my 'personal' routine, but I did not have it in the sheet. Prior to entering a runway I have used something that grew from a 'BLT' check. A (B L L T T T F F F) check, for Boost, Lights, Latch, Trim, Transponder, Time, Flaps, Fuel, Free (and correct)), before asking if everybody is belted in, secure (door) and ready to go. Now the pin I was not as sure about. My thinking was that in a go-around situation, you've made things a little more complicated to get cleaned up. Is that over-thinking it too much? moving the pin would only require a second more....... By the way, the spreadsheet was made so that each sheet printed out to fit on a small sheet of stock so that each of the sheets made a little book that could be laminated and carried.... Just flip to the appropriate page.... Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for making it public. Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the factory writes them. If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before engine start. You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew from Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I advocate doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is very important. It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible if the gear selector is in the full down detent. I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. Wing Commander Gordon AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:16 AM PST US From: "William Boelte" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, You start the No.2 engine first and check the No.2 hydraulic pump, on shut down shouldn't you shut down the No. 2 first to check the No.1 hyd pump? Very well thought out check list and one of the best I have seen. Kindest regards, Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at Col-East Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:13 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Thanks for the comments. I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of anything. The W&B spreadsheet is one of them, based on the very nice TasAir sheet. I am now trying to track down the tables from SB 199 to make sure it is following the latest update. Yes of course, free and correct. I have added it to the sheet in the pre-start column. It was always in my 'personal' routine, but I did not have it in the sheet. Prior to entering a runway I have used something that grew from a 'BLT' check. A (B L L T T T F F F) check, for Boost, Lights, Latch, Trim, Transponder, Time, Flaps, Fuel, Free (and correct)), before asking if everybody is belted in, secure (door) and ready to go. Now the pin I was not as sure about. My thinking was that in a go-around situation, you've made things a little more complicated to get cleaned up. Is that over-thinking it too much? moving the pin would only require a second more....... By the way, the spreadsheet was made so that each sheet printed out to fit on a small sheet of stock so that each of the sheets made a little book that could be laminated and carried.... Just flip to the appropriate page.... Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for making it public. Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the factory writes them. If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before engine start. You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew from Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I advocate doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is very important. It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible if the gear selector is in the full down detent. I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. Wing Commander Gordon AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? From: Bruce Campbell Not an urban legend, but the accident occurred at sac exec. It was a (lawyer owned) Baron 58, which flipped on take off, killing the sole occupant. NTSB found the control lock still in place. The design of the Baron (and Bonanza) dual yoke makes it hard to see from the operating position, but if the gentleman had checked for clear controls before trusting in them he would be alive today. Bruce From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 6:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for making it public. Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the factory writes them. If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before engine start. You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew from Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I advocate doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is very important. It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible if the gear selector is in the full down detent. I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. Wing Commander Gordon AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:54 AM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Moe, This pin is on the older 680, with the bath tub. The landing gear does not rotate when it retracts. The owner explained that if the hydraulic pressure bleeds off, the budge cord may not keep the gear down when the aircraft is towed. The older style does not have the nitrogen cylinder on the gear. He had two pins with flags on them for the gear. On the older 680, you would need to add, pump the hydraulic up to 1000 psi prior to start. Originally the 560 and 680 only had one engine with Hydraulic pump. You could start up and not have breaks. The 680 I am looking at, has the dual hydraulic pumps. Tylor Hall On Aug 6, 2007, at 9:17 AM, Moe - Ross Racing Pistons wrote: > Tylor, > > > Please explain about the external down lock gear lock pins on each > landing gear that must be pulled just prior to engine start. I > don=92t think that my 680F(p) has such a device. > > > Thanx! > > > Moe > > N680RR > > 680F(p) > > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:51 AM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > > > Gordon makes a good observation about the external rudder lock. > > I am looking at a 680 and it was pointed out that the 680 has an > external down lock gear pin on each landing gear that must be > pulled just prior to engine start. > > > This would need to be added to a post shut down list, put down lock > pin in and gust lock in Rudder with rubber chicken attached. ;) > > > Where I am flying, they have an external walk around check list > that we need to complete. > > Is there one for a Twin Commander? > > > I was tough to pull the gust rudder lock as part of my walk around, > but I never saw a check list. > > > Since this list is on an Excel spread sheet, it can be modified to > fit each aircraft. > > > Can we get it posted on the web site? > > > Tylor Hall > > > On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:13 AM, Steve at Col-East wrote: > > > Thanks for the comments. I do have some misgivings about posting my > 'versions' of anything. The W&B spreadsheet is one of them, based > on the very nice TasAir sheet. I am now trying to track down the > tables from SB 199 to make sure it is following the latest update. > > Yes of course, free and correct. I have added it to the sheet in > the pre-start column. It was always in my 'personal' routine, but I > did not have it in the sheet. Prior to entering a runway I have > used something that grew from a 'BLT' check. A (B L L T T T F F F) > check, for Boost, Lights, Latch, Trim, Transponder, Time, Flaps, > Fuel, Free (and correct)), before asking if everybody is belted in, > secure (door) and ready to go. > > Now the pin I was not as sure about. My thinking was that in a go- > around situation, you've made things a little more complicated to > get cleaned up. Is that over-thinking it too much? moving the pin > would only require a second more....... > > By the way, the spreadsheet was made so that each sheet printed out > to fit on a small sheet of stock so that each of the sheets made a > little book that could be laminated and carried.... Just flip to > the appropriate page.... > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: CloudCraft@aol.com > > To: commander-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:26 AM > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > > > Steve, > > That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for making > it public. > > Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the > factory writes them. > > If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching > a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: > > The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before > engine start. > > You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder > locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew from > Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I advocate > doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! > > Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is > very important. > > It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way > down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible > if the gear selector is in the full down detent. > > I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may > have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above > ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use > Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go > thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > AOL.com. > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > http://forums.matronics.com > Matronics > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:11 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: July 2000 Article, 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IE15IAphbnN3ZXIgaXMgc2ltcGxlLiAg4oCcVW5zYWZldHkgdGhlIGxhbmRpbmcgZ2VhciBo YW5kbGUgYW5kIHJhaXNlIGl0LuKAnSAgWW914oCZcmUgYSAKcGlsb3QuICBJdOKAmXMgd2hh dCB5b3XigJlyZSB0aGVyZSBmb3IuICAgCuKAnCDigKYgU3F1ZWV6ZSBhbmQgZmxleCBhbmQg c2xpZGUgYW5kIG9uZSBhbmQgdHdvIGFuZCBzcXVlZXplIGFuZCBmbGV4IGFuZCAKc2xpZGUg 4oCm4oCdICBPaCwgZm9yZ2V0IGl0LiAgWW91IGxvb2sgc2lsbHkgaW4gRGFuc2tpbnMuICBX ZeKAmWQgYmV0dGVyIHN0aWNrIHRvIApmbHlpbmcuIApLZWl0aCBTLiBHb3Jkb24gCkNMT1VE IENSQUZUwq4gCkNsb3VkQ3JhZnRAYW9sLmNvbQoKCgoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKiBHZXQgYSBzbmVhayBwZWVrIG9mIHRoZSBhbGwtbmV3IEFPTCBh dCAKaHR0cDovL2Rpc2NvdmVyLmFvbC5jb20vbWVtZWQvYW9sY29tMzB0b3VyCg= ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:10 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? From: Bruce Campbell Or near, or would fly out if needs be .... For the 520 damage (it's a total officially, BTW). Bruce ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:58 AM PST US From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Tylor, Thanks for clarifying that this feature is on the older 680 models..there for a minute I thought that I had completely lost it. Regards, Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Moe, This pin is on the older 680, with the bath tub. The landing gear does not rotate when it retracts. The owner explained that if the hydraulic pressure bleeds off, the budge cord may not keep the gear down when the aircraft is towed. The older style does not have the nitrogen cylinder on the gear. He had two pins with flags on them for the gear. On the older 680, you would need to add, pump the hydraulic up to 1000 psi prior to start. Originally the 560 and 680 only had one engine with Hydraulic pump. You could start up and not have breaks. The 680 I am looking at, has the dual hydraulic pumps. Tylor Hall On Aug 6, 2007, at 9:17 AM, Moe - Ross Racing Pistons wrote: Tylor, Please explain about the external down lock gear lock pins on each landing gear that must be pulled just prior to engine start. I don't think that my 680F(p) has such a device. Thanx! Moe N680RR 680F(p) _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Gordon makes a good observation about the external rudder lock. I am looking at a 680 and it was pointed out that the 680 has an external down lock gear pin on each landing gear that must be pulled just prior to engine start. This would need to be added to a post shut down list, put down lock pin in and gust lock in Rudder with rubber chicken attached. ;) Where I am flying, they have an external walk around check list that we need to complete. Is there one for a Twin Commander? I was tough to pull the gust rudder lock as part of my walk around, but I never saw a check list. Since this list is on an Excel spread sheet, it can be modified to fit each aircraft. Can we get it posted on the web site? Tylor Hall On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:13 AM, Steve at Col-East wrote: Thanks for the comments. I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of anything. The W&B spreadsheet is one of them, based on the very nice TasAir sheet. I am now trying to track down the tables from SB 199 to make sure it is following the latest update. Yes of course, free and correct. I have added it to the sheet in the pre-start column. It was always in my 'personal' routine, but I did not have it in the sheet. Prior to entering a runway I have used something that grew from a 'BLT' check. A (B L L T T T F F F) check, for Boost, Lights, Latch, Trim, Transponder, Time, Flaps, Fuel, Free (and correct)), before asking if everybody is belted in, secure (door) and ready to go. Now the pin I was not as sure about. My thinking was that in a go-around situation, you've made things a little more complicated to get cleaned up. Is that over-thinking it too much? moving the pin would only require a second more....... By the way, the spreadsheet was made so that each sheet printed out to fit on a small sheet of stock so that each of the sheets made a little book that could be laminated and carried.... Just flip to the appropriate page.... Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, That's an excellent check list. Nice work, and thank you for making it public. Checklists are very personal, and should be, despite how the factory writes them. If you'll allow me a couple of observations that come from teaching a bunch of guys to fly Commanders: The flight control "free and correct" check should happen before engine start. You have no idea how many times guys have left external rudder locks in. Urban legend has it that one pilot took off and flew from Carlsbad, CA to Sacramento (area) with it in. In fact, I advocate doing the control check before the seat belt is fastened! Latching the landing gear safety pin when the gear is put down is very important. It is possible to have the gear handle down, but not all the way down. Moving the gear safety latch into position is only possible if the gear selector is in the full down detent. I'm not saying you should change your checklist because you may have all kinds of things you do internally to address the above ideas -- but anyone who is new to the airplane and going to use Steve's checklist might want to make a few edits while you go thought the "training wheel" phase of adapting to a Commander. Wing Commander Gordon AOL.com. href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href=" http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? From: yourtcfg@aol.com HI BRUCE.. I am a certified appraiser with the Nation Aircraft Appraisers Ass. (NAAA). =C2- I live in Washougal WA (about 40 "Commander minutes" from Seattle. =C2- Jim Metzger 360-903-6901 -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Campbell Sent: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 9:33 am Subject: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? Or near, or would fly out if needs be . For the 520 damage (it =99s a total officially, BTW). =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Bruce -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List -======================== -= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== ________________________________________________________________________ AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:03 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Se... Bruce, That's right up Capt'n JimBob's alley and right in his back yard. Wing Commander Gordon http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:53 AM PST US From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? Bruce, Try our leader J.B.! Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? Or near, or would fly out if needs be .. For the 520 damage (it's a total officially, BTW). Bruce ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Se... From: Bruce Campbell Yup. We're going to do it in about a week. Thanx Bruce From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CloudCraft@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Se... Bruce, That's right up Capt'n JimBob's alley and right in his back yard. Wing Commander Gordon AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? From: Bruce Campbell Yup. Already set it up. Bruce From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? Bruce, Try our leader J.B.! Moe ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Commander-List: Can anybody recommend a good aircraft appraiser in the Seattle Area? Or near, or would fly out if needs be .... For the 520 damage (it's a total officially, BTW). Bruce ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:27 AM PST US From: "Steve at Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Flamenco guitar, eh? I'd love to hear some of that. I used to have an old cassette tape of Segovia some years back. It sounded like 3 or 4 instruments at once. I'm about a year into trying to play Viola, in between finishing our house, building a small bakery for my wife, pulling stumps and grading the land in back yard, and trying to rebuild an old MG.......... And I still want to build a biplane. You know, in my spare time. I changed the sheet to reflect operating the pin when selecting gear down. Also incorporated the previous very good observation to alternate shutdown to be opposite startup to detect problems with hydraulic and vacuum pumps. Something I DO, but didn't have on the sheet right. The sheets print out better, but not the way I designed it to be, on small index cards. I'lll work on that. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? In a message dated 06-Aug-07 07:18:06 Pacific Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of anything. Yo ho! You are so right, Steve! Checklists are always a work in progress. And, you can produce what you think is the perfect checklist after a lifetime of edits and tweaking and the first person you show it to will look at it and say it's worthless. Then there's the problem of your checklist being found at the bottom of a crater with a wrecked airplane on top of it ... You'll probably hear from the bereaved widow's attorney. As to the safety latch on the landing gear: your comment is always everyone's first reaction to the idea of safetying the gear upon extension. It is my belief that it's a simple thing to flick out of the way on a go-around or missed approach. But then again, I used to play flamenco guitar and can use my right hand pinkie and ring finger to move the latch while holding the gear handle with my thumb, index and middle finger. Ole! ;-) If the 3/4 of a second it takes to unsafety the gear is the difference between a successful go-around, are you really in position to make a go-around? There are two distinct camps on this issue and now you know where my tent is pitched. I rather flick (or fumble with) the gear safety, then to have a nose wheel fold back on landing. Wing Commander Gordon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:34 AM PST US From: John Vormbaum Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? Steve, Thanks for your checklist documents! They look great, and I really appreciate the input. I'll make sure to put PROPERTY OF STEVE @ COL-EAST at the top of each page, so if something were to go awry, my wife will know whom my attorney should call. (Just kiddin') I was trained from day 1 to engage the pin latch after putting the gear down, and I do it automatically now, without thinking, as pretty much a single motion....lever-down-latch. In the couple of instances when the students have backed up the pattern at my local airport (ever notice how much faster a Commander is in the pattern than a Cessna 150, even when flying slow?), the go-around was a non event. I also, for the neighbors' sake, tend to keep my props ~2,200RPM in the pattern. It's amazing, even heavy, how little power it takes to arrest the descent. If the pattern is empty, I can put the power at 14" and 2,200RPM as I enter downwind, and then add flaps as needed & never touch the power levers until I can them over the threshold. During the go-around, flaps up & nudging the throttles to 17 or 18" is sufficient to regain level flight. 25" is the most I use for climbout to re-enter the pattern, and I'll usually move the props up to 2,400RPM before that final throttle adjustment. There is a very timely article on AvWeb by John Deakin about go-arounds here: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/pelicans_perch_87_killer_go-arounds_195755-1.html I'm surprised that he gets so much heat from other pilots about his philosophy, as I've evidently been trained to do them in the manner he prefers. Of course, in a Commander, you can dump all the power you have into a go-around, and that wing & tail are SO big that you won't have any control issues... Thanks again, /John Steve at Col-East wrote: > Flamenco guitar, eh? I'd love to hear some of that. I used to have an > old cassette tape of Segovia some years back. It sounded like 3 or 4 > instruments at once. I'm about a year into trying to play Viola, in > between finishing our house, building a small bakery for my wife, > pulling stumps and grading the land in back yard, and trying to > rebuild an old MG.......... And I still want to build a biplane. You > know, in my spare time. > > I changed the sheet to reflect operating the pin when selecting gear down. > > Also incorporated the previous very good observation to alternate > shutdown to be opposite startup to detect problems with hydraulic and > vacuum pumps. Something I DO, but didn't have on the sheet right. > > The sheets print out better, but not the way I designed it to be, on > small index cards. I'lll work on that. > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* CloudCraft@aol.com > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Monday, August 06, 2007 10:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > > In a message dated 06-Aug-07 07:18:06 Pacific Daylight Time, > steve2@sover.net writes: > > I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of anything. > > *Yo ho! You are so right, Steve! * > ** > *Checklists are always a work in progress. And, you can produce > what you think is the perfect checklist after a lifetime of edits > and tweaking and the first person you show it to will look at it > and say it's worthless.* > * * > * > Then there's the problem of your checklist being found at the > bottom of a crater with a wrecked airplane on top of it ... > You'll probably hear from the bereaved widow's attorney.* > * * > * * > * * > *As to the safety latch on the landing gear: your comment is > always everyone's first reaction to the idea of safetying the gear > upon extension.* > * * > * * > * * > * It is my belief that it's a simple thing to flick out of the way > on a go-around or missed approach. But then again, I used to play > flamenco guitar and can use my right hand pinkie and ring finger > to move the latch while holding the gear handle with my thumb, > index and middle finger. Ole! ;-)* > * * > * * > * * > *If the 3/4 of a second it takes to unsafety the gear is the > difference between a successful go-around, are you really in > position to make a go-around?* > * * > * * > * * > *There are two distinct camps on this issue and now you know where > my tent is pitched. I rather flick (or fumble with) the gear > safety, then to have a nose wheel fold back on landing. * > * * > * * > * * > *Wing Commander Gordon* > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > AOL.com. > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > > __________ NOD32 2439 (20070806) Information __________ > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:42 PM PST US From: "Steve at Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? John, Gotta love Deakin. Good piece. I'm very glad to read your previous message, and Deakin's column. I had been nudging the RPM up on short final when I first started flying our Commander. For a while now, I had been leaving props at cruise through rollout, thinking I had plenty of power available if I needed to initiate a go-around, and why make all that racket? I didn't figure anything would happen so quick, I couldn't slowly shove everything forward if need be. The only exception was if we had one of those swell days we get at the home drome with the wind ripping over the hills. Then I would advance RPM on final. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist Document? > > Steve, > > Thanks for your checklist documents! They look great, and I really > appreciate the input. I'll make sure to put PROPERTY OF STEVE @ COL-EAST > at the top of each page, so if something were to go awry, my wife will > know whom my attorney should call. (Just kiddin') > > I was trained from day 1 to engage the pin latch after putting the gear > down, and I do it automatically now, without thinking, as pretty much a > single motion....lever-down-latch. In the couple of instances when the > students have backed up the pattern at my local airport (ever notice how > much faster a Commander is in the pattern than a Cessna 150, even when > flying slow?), the go-around was a non event. I also, for the neighbors' > sake, tend to keep my props ~2,200RPM in the pattern. It's amazing, even > heavy, how little power it takes to arrest the descent. If the pattern is > empty, I can put the power at 14" and 2,200RPM as I enter downwind, and > then add flaps as needed & never touch the power levers until I can them > over the threshold. During the go-around, flaps up & nudging the throttles > to 17 or 18" is sufficient to regain level flight. 25" is the most I use > for climbout to re-enter the pattern, and I'll usually move the props up > to 2,400RPM before that final throttle adjustment. > > There is a very timely article on AvWeb by John Deakin about go-arounds > here: > http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/pelicans_perch_87_killer_go-arounds_195755-1.html > > I'm surprised that he gets so much heat from other pilots about his > philosophy, as I've evidently been trained to do them in the manner he > prefers. Of course, in a Commander, you can dump all the power you have > into a go-around, and that wing & tail are SO big that you won't have any > control issues... > > Thanks again, > > /John > > Steve at Col-East wrote: >> Flamenco guitar, eh? I'd love to hear some of that. I used to have an old >> cassette tape of Segovia some years back. It sounded like 3 or 4 >> instruments at once. I'm about a year into trying to play Viola, in >> between finishing our house, building a small bakery for my wife, pulling >> stumps and grading the land in back yard, and trying to rebuild an old >> MG.......... And I still want to build a biplane. You know, in my spare >> time. >> I changed the sheet to reflect operating the pin when selecting gear >> down. >> Also incorporated the previous very good observation to alternate >> shutdown to be opposite startup to detect problems with hydraulic and >> vacuum pumps. Something I DO, but didn't have on the sheet right. >> The sheets print out better, but not the way I designed it to be, on >> small index cards. I'lll work on that. >> Steve >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* CloudCraft@aol.com >> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com >> >> *Sent:* Monday, August 06, 2007 10:57 AM >> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Anyone have a 500-B Checklist >> Document? >> >> In a message dated 06-Aug-07 07:18:06 Pacific Daylight Time, >> steve2@sover.net writes: >> >> I do have some misgivings about posting my 'versions' of >> anything. >> >> *Yo ho! You are so right, Steve! * >> ** *Checklists are always a work in progress. And, you can produce >> what you think is the perfect checklist after a lifetime of edits >> and tweaking and the first person you show it to will look at it >> and say it's worthless.* >> * * >> * >> Then there's the problem of your checklist being found at the >> bottom of a crater with a wrecked airplane on top of it ... You'll >> probably hear from the bereaved widow's attorney.* >> * * >> * * >> * * >> *As to the safety latch on the landing gear: your comment is >> always everyone's first reaction to the idea of safetying the gear >> upon extension.* >> * * >> * * >> * * >> * It is my belief that it's a simple thing to flick out of the way >> on a go-around or missed approach. But then again, I used to play >> flamenco guitar and can use my right hand pinkie and ring finger >> to move the latch while holding the gear handle with my thumb, >> index and middle finger. Ole! ;-)* >> * * >> * * >> * * >> *If the 3/4 of a second it takes to unsafety the gear is the >> difference between a successful go-around, are you really in >> position to make a go-around?* >> * * >> * * >> * * >> *There are two distinct camps on this issue and now you know where >> my tent is pitched. I rather flick (or fumble with) the gear >> safety, then to have a nose wheel fold back on landing. * >> * * >> * * >> * * >> *Wing Commander Gordon* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> AOL.com. >> >> * >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> >> * >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2439 (20070806) Information __________ >> > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:14 PM PST US From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" Subject: Commander-List: Outflow Valve 625 S. Douglas, El Segundo, CA 90245 $B!|(B Phone: (310) 536-0100 Fax: (310) 536-0333 moe@rosspistons.com August 6, 2007 Fellow Commander Drivers: Does anyone have a suggestion as to where one should go to have an outflow valve for the pressurization system rebuilt for a 680F(p)? Thanks! Moe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.