---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/03/07: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:54 AM - Re: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? (Steve @ Col-East) 2. 04:04 AM - Re: Taildraggers (Steve @ Col-East) 3. 06:08 AM - Re: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 4. 06:34 AM - Re: Taildraggers (BobsV35B@aol.com) 5. 06:37 AM - Re: Taildraggers (JTAddington) 6. 06:46 AM - Re: Taildraggers (BobsV35B@aol.com) 7. 07:37 AM - Re: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? (Steve at Col-East) 8. 07:53 AM - Re: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 09:06 AM - Flap hanger corrosion (Tom Fisher) 10. 10:44 PM - GREAT SOUND (yourtcfg@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:10 AM PST US From: "Steve @ Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? Bob, In the past couple years we've had a number of mag failures. The last time a coil went bad. We go through them every 500 hours or so, but still have a problem now and again. Once I see the loss in CHT/EGT, or feel it, I goose that side to rich so I'm not running cylinders where I don't want them, and work the rest of the day with the split. I don't know what other folks have found, but we've found one thing about LOP, and that is it's very intolerant of any faults..... Ignition, induction..... Everything needs to be in tip top shape. I think a lot of things you might not notice otherwise when running these things on the rich side, shows up LOP. The six probe EGT is an amazing gizmo. I've looked over and seen a spike in one jug and thought, now what? Cycle through the mags and find a bad plug, and confirm it on the ground. A cracked flange on an induction tube.... Shows up on the EGT. A lot of this stuff you can feel, even when its really subtle, but the EGT helps you find it. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? Good Evening Steve, Just out of curiosity, what was the occasion that had you operating one engine on the lean side and the other one on the rich side! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/2/2007 6:03:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: I've found pretty quickly I've lost a mag when I feel some roughness and all of a sudden see a spike in EGT/CHT. Sure enough, I'll switch between mags and find a dead one. Interesting coming home with one engine lean, and one engine rich. Both have similar EGT/CHT, but one is swilling fuel, and one isn't........ Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:13 AM PST US From: "Steve @ Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Taildraggers Nobody ever taught me that one...... So after you've stuck yourself to the ground you're cross-controlling? I'm not sure I'm smart enough to do that. Some days it's all I can do to turn the controls the right direction. I remember a lesson I had as a kid with Tom Murphy, one of the original Pepsi skywriters. He was a neat old guy. We lined up on an old drive in movie theatre screen, and did dutch rolls over and over with and without aileron. I still remember the nose of the ratty old Cub slewing from side to side. Never thought about it on the ground..... Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Taildraggers In a message dated 10/2/2007 9:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, yourtcfg@aol.com writes: Taildragger Taildragger Good Evening JB, That is a very fine rendition of tailwheel checkout problems. However, it does emphasize one of the problems that pilots are experiencing when transitioning from tri-gear to conventional gear aircraft. All that the author discusses is the use of rudder to keep the airplane on the desired course. There is not even one suggestion about the steering force that can be used via the advantageous use of adverse yaw generated by the old fashioned aileron which is used for roll control on most older flying machines. In the thirties and early forties, that was well understood and thoroughly taught, but very few pilots other than some fortunate sea plane pilots and a few very fortunate glider pilots are ever taught how effective the adverse yaw can be in keeping the airplane on the straight and narrow. On some aircraft, specifically the Twin Beech, the use of proper aileron is much more effective and of much greater importance than the use of rudder. Another one of those ancient truths that have been designed out of modern airplanes. Nothing wrong with what the designers have done, but when we fly that ancient equipment, it behooves us to know, understand, and use the ancient techniques!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what'set="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:11 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? Good Morning Steve, Your experience directly parallels mine. The modern engine monitor consisting of all cylinder EGT and CHT indications combined with a good electronic fuel flow is not only a great aid in diagnosing problems, but it really helps train us in how the engine really operates! The ignition system needs to be in excellent shape. It is not unusual to find brand new spark plugs that fail a high power lean of peak magneto check right out of the box. I now consider my inflight, high power, magneto check to be much more important than the one traditionally performed before takeoff. It is a fact that many engines which do not run well lean of peak will be found to have small induction leaks. With an unsupercharged engine a comparison of a careful lean check performed at altitude and one done down low will generally find that leak. Do you use a lean spread check such as the one recommended by the GAMI folks? While I have been running on the lean side and working to balance my fuel nozzles and/or intake systems for well over fifty years, I had never thought of doing their lean check procedure before I bought my GAMI balanced fuel nozzles. That knowledge alone was well worth the purchase price. I still feel very comfortable struggling along without a good engine monitor, but it is one of the first places that I would spend my money if I bought a 'new to me' airplane. It is a lot more than just a nice toy. The saving of fuel via more precise control is nice, but much more important is the ability to catch minor engine problems easily and to be able to pin point the location of those impending difficulties. Having said all that, this is why I asked the question: Did you consider running your engine on the lean side after that one magneto failed? All that running on one mag does is retard the point of peak combustion pressure. Kinda like retarding the spark just a bit. Shouldn't be any problem at all. If you wanted to pick the power back up a bit, rechecking the peak on the one magneto and going on from there to your normal lean operating point should work just fine. Any thoughts? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:55:06 A.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: I don't know what other folks have found, but we've found one thing about LOP, and that is it's very intolerant of any faults..... Ignition, induction..... Everything needs to be in tip top shape. I think a lot of things you might not notice otherwise when running these things on the rich side, shows up LOP. The six probe EGT is an amazing gizmo. I've looked over and seen a spike in one jug and thought, now what? Cycle through the mags and find a bad plug, and confirm it on the ground. A cracked flange on an induction tube.... Shows up on the EGT. A lot of this stuff you can feel, even when its really subtle, but the EGT helps you find it. Steve ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:55 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Taildraggers Good Morning Once Again Steve, I do not recommend doing it as a quick correction, but setting the controls in that manner as a conscious effort well in advance of the need. Most pilots are taught to use aileron into the wind for crosswind takeoff and landings. It is generally taught that doing so will keep the wing down. No doubt that is one effect, but the much more important result is that the adverse yaw being generated by that action is a primary aid to directional control. Consequently, most pilots do exactly what I suggest in a strong crosswind. However, when the wind is on the nose, turning the wheel in the opposite direction to correct for a swerve is not a natural move. It does need to be trained for and practiced to be effective. Where the problem usually occurs in the Twin Beech is just at that time that the tail is being raised during the takeoff. The combination of engine/propellor torque and the gyroscopic precession of the propellors uses up all the right rudder that is available and the pilot may try to steer the airplane back to the right just like he/she would his/her car. The control wheel is turned to the right. That provokes the adverse yaw which turns the airplane to the left and the airplane runs off the left side of the runway. The longer one flys without considering the effect of adverse yaw, the tougher it is to learn to use it properly. Add in a bit of experience with an airplane that uses spoilers for roll control and things can really get dicey! Modern airplanes don't have the problem, but for those of us who enjoy the older machines, it is a point that should at least be recognized. If nothing else, I tell folks to avoid any extra aileron input if they are not absolutely positive which way it should be turned! The plus side is that even a modern airplane that uses aileron for roll control will benefit from the use of adverse yaw while on the ground. If you are flying one that uses spoiler for roll control, it is not only no good at all, it is detrimental! So much for standardization! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/3/2007 6:05:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: Nobody ever taught me that one...... So after you've stuck yourself to the ground you're cross-controlling? I'm not sure I'm smart enough to do that. Some days it's all I can do to turn the controls the right direction. I remember a lesson I had as a kid with Tom Murphy, one of the original Pepsi skywriters. He was a neat old guy. We lined up on an old drive in movie theatre screen, and did dutch rolls over and over with and without aileron. I still remember the nose of the ratty old Cub slewing from side to side. Never thought about it on the ground..... Steve ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:38 AM PST US From: "JTAddington" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Taildraggers I for got you are on a real airplane the B-747. Jim _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bow Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:27 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Taildraggers No they are in the middle. bb _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James T. Addington Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:17 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Taildraggers BB, is that one of those airplanes with a training wheel in the back? HeHeHe Jim _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bow Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:08 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Taildraggers That's great! I have taken my "sleek and clean" quintacycle (5 legs) out and burned up 399,200 lbs. (59,582 gallons) of kerosene this week. And I have used "a little of rudder, not too much" and been successful. It's time to go home before it's "my own tail" going by. bb _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:06 PM Subject: Commander-List: Taildraggers Thought you guys could appreciate this since many of you learned to fly in a taildragger. Enjoy! Taildragger Taildragger Taildragger, I hate your guts, I have the license, ratings and such. But to make you go straight is driving me nuts. With hours of teaching and the controls in my clutch. It takes a little rudder, easy, that's too much. You see, I learned to fly in a trycycle gear with one up front and two in the rear. She was sleek and clean and easy to steer But this miserasble thing with tires and struts Takes a little rudder, easy, that's too much. It demands your attention on the take-off roll or it heads towards Jone's as you pour on the coal. Gotta hang loose, don't over control. This wicked little plane is just too much. With a lot of zigzagging and words obscene I think I've mastered this slippery machine It's not that bad if you have the touch Just a little rudder, easy, that's too much. I relax for a second and from the corner of my eye, I suddenly realize with a gasp and a cry That's my own tail that's going by. You grounding looping wreck; I hate your guts, Give a little rudder, Great Scott, THAT'S TOO MUCH. Author Unknown _____ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail ! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:15 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Taildraggers In a message dated 10/3/2007 8:39:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jtaddington@verizon.net writes: I for got you are on a real airplane the B-747. Jim There is nothing else that quite compares with driving an eighteen wheeler! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:53 AM PST US From: "Steve at Col-East" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? Old Bob, Affirmative on the GAMI test. We're pretty close to perfect on fuel injection balance, but not quite there. We've got the smallest injectors GAMI will give us on number 1, and the largest on 5 and 6. But pulling the mixture back has the fire going out in number 5 first, on both engines. We've speculated that there is something about this engine installation on the Commander that is harder to balance. The spider is all the way forward, and number 5 has the longest and kinkiest run of the fuel injection line. We did the test with having each of the injectors piddle into a Coke bottle. 5 lags just a little behind the others. (As an aside, a couple years ago that's how we found the rebuilt engine's fuel pump had had a chunk of thread come off and run through the pump, distributing chunks into the spider.) We even found the fuel injection line had nipple ends with different internal diameters, and changed the long number 5 and 6 lines to match the new style. It helped, but didn't totally cure it. Pulling the mixture, way way back, or losing a mag, has the engine (especially our left engine) run with a little bit of vibes. I've got sitting on my desk a left side intake gasket that obviously wasn't making the same good contact all the way around. We just last week replaced the last of the old chintzy intake tubes, with newer heavier gauge ones. I'm eager to get in the air to see if we've had an undiagnosed small intake leak. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? Good Morning Steve, Your experience directly parallels mine. The modern engine monitor consisting of all cylinder EGT and CHT indications combined with a good electronic fuel flow is not only a great aid in diagnosing problems, but it really helps train us in how the engine really operates! The ignition system needs to be in excellent shape. It is not unusual to find brand new spark plugs that fail a high power lean of peak magneto check right out of the box. I now consider my inflight, high power, magneto check to be much more important than the one traditionally performed before takeoff. It is a fact that many engines which do not run well lean of peak will be found to have small induction leaks. With an unsupercharged engine a comparison of a careful lean check performed at altitude and one done down low will generally find that leak. Do you use a lean spread check such as the one recommended by the GAMI folks? While I have been running on the lean side and working to balance my fuel nozzles and/or intake systems for well over fifty years, I had never thought of doing their lean check procedure before I bought my GAMI balanced fuel nozzles. That knowledge alone was well worth the purchase price. I still feel very comfortable struggling along without a good engine monitor, but it is one of the first places that I would spend my money if I bought a 'new to me' airplane. It is a lot more than just a nice toy. The saving of fuel via more precise control is nice, but much more important is the ability to catch minor engine problems easily and to be able to pin point the location of those impending difficulties. Having said all that, this is why I asked the question: Did you consider running your engine on the lean side after that one magneto failed? All that running on one mag does is retard the point of peak combustion pressure. Kinda like retarding the spark just a bit. Shouldn't be any problem at all. If you wanted to pick the power back up a bit, rechecking the peak on the one magneto and going on from there to your normal lean operating point should work just fine. Any thoughts? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:55:06 A.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: I don't know what other folks have found, but we've found one thing about LOP, and that is it's very intolerant of any faults..... Ignition, induction..... Everything needs to be in tip top shape. I think a lot of things you might not notice otherwise when running these things on the rich side, shows up LOP. The six probe EGT is an amazing gizmo. I've looked over and seen a spike in one jug and thought, now what? Cycle through the mags and find a bad plug, and confirm it on the ground. A cracked flange on an induction tube.... Shows up on the EGT. A lot of this stuff you can feel, even when its really subtle, but the EGT helps you find it. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:33 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lean side or rich side? Was: Pressure Carburetor? Good Morning Steve It is an interesting new world when we get good instrumentation, isn't it? I am not at all familiar with the intake tubes on the 540. Is there any possibility of an "Occult" (as George calls it) fuel transfer with your intake pipes? Always something new to be learned. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:39:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: We did the test with having each of the injectors piddle into a Coke bottle. 5 lags just a little behind the others. (As an aside, a couple years ago that's how we found the rebuilt engine's fuel pump had had a chunk of thread come off and run through the pump, distributing chunks into the spider.) We even found the fuel injection line had nipple ends with different internal diameters, and changed the long number 5 and 6 lines to match the new style. It helped, but didn't totally cure it. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:52 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Commander-List: Flap hanger corrosion Gentlemen, I am going through an annual, (again), and am badly in need of a Flap hanger due to corrosion. The part number is; 5240001-515, the location is (good luck); Left wing, Inboard flap, Outboard hanger, Outboard side. If anyone can get me one of those (in very good condition) this week please call me as soon as able, cell; 604-649-9320 (Vancouver, Canada). Thanks all, Tom Fisher C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:46 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: GREAT SOUND From: yourtcfg@aol.com I was just watching TV and saw an old Twilight Zone episode called "The arri val" about a DC-3 that arrived with no one aboard.=C2- In one of the early scenes, you can clearly hear the sound of a pair of geared Lycs taking off, COOL!!=C2- jb -----Original Message----- From: James T. Addington Sent: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 9:17 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Taildraggers BB, is that one of those airplanes with a training wheel in the back? HeHeHe Jim =C2- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list -server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bow Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:08 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Taildraggers =C2- That=99s great!=C2- I have taken my =9Csleek and clean=9D quintacycle (5 legs) out a nd burned up 399,200 lbs. (59,582 gallons) of kerosene this week. And I have used =9Ca little of rudder, not too much=9D and been successful .=C2- It=99s time to go home before it=99s =9Cmy own tai l=9D going by. bb =C2- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list -server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:06 PM Subject: Commander-List: Taildraggers =C2- Thought you guys could appreciate this since many of you learned to fly in a taildragger.=C2- Enjoy! Taildragger Taildragger =C2- Taildragger, I hate your guts, I have the license, ratings and such. But to make you go straight is driving me nuts. With hours of teaching and the controls in my clutch. It takes a little rudder, easy, that's too much. You see, I learned to fly in a trycycle gear with one up front and two in the rear. She was sleek and clean and easy to steer But this miserasble thing with tires and struts Takes a little rudder, easy, that's too much. It demands your attention on the take-off roll or it heads towards Jone's as you pour on the coal. Gotta hang loose, don't over control. This wicked little plane is just too much. With a lot of zigzagging and words obscene I think I've mastered this slippery machine It's not that bad if you have the touch Just a little rudder, easy, that's too much. I relax for a second and from the corner of my eye, I suddenly realize with a gasp and a cry That's my own tail that's going by. You grounding looping wreck; I hate your guts, Give a little rudder, Great Scott, THAT'S TOO MUCH. Author Unknown Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List -======================== -= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List -======================== -= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. 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