Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:41 PM - Re: Engine Failures Update (Jerry Sprayberry)
2. 05:55 PM - Re: Engine Failures Update (Robert S. Randazzo)
3. 08:59 PM - Re: Engine Failures Update (CloudCraft@aol.com)
4. 09:10 PM - Cockpits! (CloudCraft@aol.com)
5. 09:14 PM - Re: Engine Failures Update (Robert S. Randazzo)
6. 10:30 PM - Re: Cockpits! (Jerry Sprayberry)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Failures Update |
Randy,
Thank you for sharing your experience with your 680F, If it will make
you feel better I, also have had three "UN-EXPLAINED" oil loss on the
left side of my 680F, I know it is the breather system for sure, but I
find that it happens within :20 of take-off on a cold day? Beware of
your Mechanic he may be hazardous to your health.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA
To: Commander Chat
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update
Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the
left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right engine
- at the same time. Here's an update.
After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil
pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the crank).
The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during the
previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be re-built.
Here's the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of oil through the
breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both incidents occurred
at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual inspection. Both engines
had cylinders replaced during the annual inspection (2 on the right, 1
on the left).
I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence.
My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the
airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil in
the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended by
Lycoming). He says that it is not necessary. Several engine experts
who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate that they
look too "used" to be 5.5. hours old. Morris and the cylinder shop deny
that they are used. Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE is currently
re-building the engines (at $50K each). They indicate that the cylinder
walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, and can be a cause of
excessive "blow-by" and crankcase pressurization. I have always been
very careful about temps, so the only time the engines could be
overheated is during a ground test run. Morris Kernick has not taken
any responsibility for the situation. I have been very disappointed in
his lack of support and accountability. He has been virtually silent
since the incident. I have had to call him each time to discuss the
situation. He has not called me once. He says that nothing he did
caused the failures. Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would
have expected him to stand behind his work and to at least do his best
to trouble shoot the problems and help me with a solution. We still do
not know definitely what caused the failures. Morris did give me an
engine core, which I would value at around $15-20K. I believe that he
is hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being
accountable for the work leaving his shop. At this time, I am still
analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred
because of this incident.
In any case, I wanted to share my story. I have always liked Morris,
and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders. Morris does
not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all work
done in his shop. I believe this situation may be a result of his
conviction for falsifying maintenance records. Because of these
factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me with
competent service - service that is so important to the safety and lives
of the people that I carry in my airplane. I feel obligated to share
these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you can make your
own conclusions.
The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be
shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at
Airmotive Specialties. I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in
the air. It's been a long 7 months.
Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Engine Failures Update |
Gents-
For someone who has never heard of this phenomenon- can anyone give a good
technical explanation of what exactly is happening to cause the oil to blow
out the breather system- and how does one check for it- prevent it, etc?
I'm running TCM engines on the 685, but I'm assuming it can happen there as
well?
Robert S.Randazzo
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Sprayberry
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update
Randy,
Thank you for sharing your experience with your 680F, If it will make you
feel better I, also have had three "UN-EXPLAINED" oil loss on the left side
of my 680F, I know it is the breather system for sure, but I find that it
happens within :20 of take-off on a cold day? Beware of your Mechanic he may
be hazardous to your health.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy <mailto:rcdettmer@charter.net> Dettmer, AIA
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update
Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the left
engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right engine - at the
same time. Here's an update.
After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil pressure,
the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the crank). The right
engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during the previous one hour
leg, and made so much metal it must be re-built. Here's the scenario - both
engines lost a huge amount of oil through the breathers (the crank cases
became pressurized), both incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs
after the annual inspection. Both engines had cylinders replaced during the
annual inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left).
I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence.
My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the
airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil in the
engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended by
Lycoming). He says that it is not necessary. Several engine experts who
have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate that they look
too "used" to be 5.5. hours old. Morris and the cylinder shop deny that
they are used. Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE is currently re-building the
engines (at $50K each). They indicate that the cylinder walls are glazed,
which is caused by over heating, and can be a cause of excessive "blow-by"
and crankcase pressurization. I have always been very careful about temps,
so the only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test
run. Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the situation. I
have been very disappointed in his lack of support and accountability. He
has been virtually silent since the incident. I have had to call him each
time to discuss the situation. He has not called me once. He says that
nothing he did caused the failures. Whether or not Morris caused the
problems, I would have expected him to stand behind his work and to at least
do his best to trouble shoot the problems and help me with a solution. We
still do not know definitely what caused the failures. Morris did give me
an engine core, which I would value at around $15-20K. I believe that he is
hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being accountable for
the work leaving his shop. At this time, I am still analyzing options to
recover some of the significant expenses incurred because of this incident.
In any case, I wanted to share my story. I have always liked Morris, and
have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders. Morris does not have
an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all work done in his
shop. I believe this situation may be a result of his conviction for
falsifying maintenance records. Because of these factors, and my recent
experience, I cannot trust him to provide me with competent service -
service that is so important to the safety and lives of the people that I
carry in my airplane. I feel obligated to share these details with my
fellow Commander owners, so that you can make your own conclusions.
The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be shipped
to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at Airmotive
Specialties. I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in the air. It's
been a long 7 months.
Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
<http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/> http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Failures Update |
In a message dated 21-Oct-07 17:56:38 Pacific Daylight Time,
rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes:
For someone who has never heard of this phenomenon- can anyone give a good
technical explanation of what exactly is happening to cause the oil to blow
out the breather system- and how does one check for it- prevent it, etc?
Robert,
This will be a (poor) explanation of either very loose science, or, very
tight magic.
I watched the crew at Down Town Airpark place an airspeed indicator rigged
to a tube that was placed over the crank case breather of an IGSO-540 on an
AC-680-FL.
They were literally measuring the "wind" coming out of the breather. Sorry
that I can not recall what value was used for the diagnostic, but a certain
"airspeed" meant that rings were bad on cylinders and letting the compression
stroke leak past the piston and pressurize the crank case.
Based on this test, one engine was top overhauled after this check and
ended up being the only strong engine on the airplane.
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 4
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Gentlemen!
After sending this link to a select few of my friends, I decided this web
site is just too good not to pass on to everyone in aviation that I know.
I have my opinion as to which of these are proper cockpits, but as the
French would say, "Each to his own fish."
Enjoy!
_Special Cockpit Issue First Quarter 2007_
(http://www.codeonemagazine.com/test/archives/2007/articles/jan_07/cockpits/cockpits.html)
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Engine Failures Update |
WCG-
Thanks for the explanation- that actually does help my understanding of what
issue is taking place.
Every time I think I know my piston engines- something like this comes up-
and I start thinking turbines are a better idea. :-p
Robert
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CloudCraft@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update
In a message dated 21-Oct-07 17:56:38 Pacific Daylight Time,
rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes:
For someone who has never heard of this phenomenon- can anyone give a good
technical explanation of what exactly is happening to cause the oil to blow
out the breather system- and how does one check for it- prevent it, etc?
Robert,
This will be a (poor) explanation of either very loose science, or, very
tight magic.
I watched the crew at Down Town Airpark place an airspeed indicator rigged
to a tube that was placed over the crank case breather of an IGSO-540 on an
AC-680-FL.
They were literally measuring the "wind" coming out of the breather. Sorry
that I can not recall what value was used for the diagnostic, but a certain
"airspeed" meant that rings were bad on cylinders and letting the
compression stroke leak past the piston and pressurize the crank case.
Based on this test, one engine was top overhauled after this check and
ended up being the only strong engine on the airplane.
Wing Commander Gordon
_____
__________ NOD32 2605 (20071022) Information __________
Message 6
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CDR.
Thanks, for keeping me up so late. I saved them all for reference when I
do my next Panel up-grade.
Nice hearing from you.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft@aol.com
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:10 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Cockpits!
Gentlemen!
After sending this link to a select few of my friends, I decided this
web site is just too good not to pass on to everyone in aviation that I
know.
I have my opinion as to which of these are proper cockpits, but as the
French would say, "Each to his own fish."
Enjoy!
Special Cockpit Issue First Quarter 2007
Wing Commander Gordon
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