---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/26/07: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:00 AM - Re: Engine Failures Update (yourtcfg@aol.com) 2. 09:45 AM - Re: Engine Failures Update (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 3. 09:49 AM - Re: Engine Failures Update (John Vormbaum) 4. 10:00 AM - Re: Engine Failures Update (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 5. 10:10 AM - Re: Engine Failures Update (John Vormbaum) 6. 10:21 AM - Re: Engine Failures Update (yourtcfg@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update From: yourtcfg@aol.com HI RANDY.=C2- I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines.=C2- I h ave to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not impos sible.=C2- I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts.=C2- I think it is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil.=C2- I n my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and never chan ged to mineral oil.=C2- A wise old mechanic I learned from taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor required that the oil be changed.=C2- I have no idea what difference that makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not seat properly.=C2- I have e ven changed many cyl without installing new rings, like if you just needed t o do some valve work.=C2- He taught that if the cyl and rings were install ed completely dry, no oil of any kind, the used rings would re-seat themselv es (in the same jug they had originally run) and they always did.=C2-=C2 - I have a couple jugs on my P&W 985 now=C2-that were done that way and running strong. I also doubt that heat is the problem.=C2-=C2-Morris Kernick has scolded me for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to belie ve he would do that?? Last was tight ring gap.=C2- The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for co ld weather ops.=C2- The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 F =C2-and below)=C2- If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch ea ch other and may brake.=C2- Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meani ng that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the bott om=C2-when the engine is cold.=C2- As the engine (cyl) warms to operatin g temp, the cyl bore=C2-will become straight.=C2- This is why it is very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying power.=C2- If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still be in the cyl bore.=C2- As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will be squeezed in and out.=C2- This can also break a ring or scar the cyl walls.=C2- =C2-I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have bee n installed.=C2- The damage=C2-you describe=C2-is consistent with=C2 -that.=C2- There are two major ring types, chrome and iron.=C2- Chrome rings are used only in steel cyl, and vice versa.=C2- If chrome rings are installed in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur.=C2- The shop who tor e your engines down should have checked this very first.=C2- Second would be that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be up, toward the top of the piston)=C2- Most modern rings are a chevron design and are ground=C2-so that combustion pressure causes the ring to expand an d seal more tightly in the cyl.=C2- If the are not installed properly, the y will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings.=C2- This too shou ld have been checked as=C2-a most likely culprit.=C2- Beyond that, ???? Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop.=C2- If the cyl came as an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine?? I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without a=C2 -doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today.=C2- He ha s as=C2-much=C2-field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone. =C2-=C2-He is however human and like all of us can make mistakes.=C2- I don't know what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I foun d out.=C2- Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy.=C2- I =C2- too look forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I fee l so bad that all this had to happen to you.=C2- Good luck =C2-jb -----Original Message----- From: Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:03 pm Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the left e ngine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right engine - at the s ame time.=C2- Here=99s an update. =C2- After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil pressure, th e left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the crank).=C2- The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during the previous one hour le g, and made so much metal it must be re-built.=C2- Here=99s the scen ario - both engines lost a huge amount of oil through the breathers (the cra nk cases became pressurized), both incidents occurred at the same time, at 5 .5. hrs after the annual inspection.=C2- Both engines had cylinders replac ed during the annual inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left).=C2- =C2- I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence. =C2- My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the airpla ne for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil in the engine s after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended by Lycoming).=C2 - He says that it is not necessary.=C2- Several engine experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate that they look too =9Cused=9D to be 5.5. hours old.=C2- Morris and the cylinder s hop deny that they are used.=C2- Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE is currentl y re-building the engines (at $50K each).=C2- They indicate that the cylin der walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, and can be a cause of excessive =9Cblow-by=9D and crankcase pressurization.=C2- I h ave always been very careful about temps, so the only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test run.=C2- Morris Kernick has not tak en any responsibility for the situation.=C2- I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and accountability.=C2- He has been virtually sile nt since the incident.=C2- I have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not called me once.=C2- He says that nothing he did cau sed the failures.=C2- Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would h ave expected him to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to tro uble shoot the problems and help me with a solution.=C2- We still do not k now definitely what caused the failures.=C2- Morris did give me an engine core, which I would value at around $15-20K.=C2- I believe that he is hopi ng that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being accountable for the work leaving his shop.=C2- At this time, I am still analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred because of this incident. =C2- In any case, I wanted to share my story.=C2- I have always liked Morris, a nd have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders.=C2- Morris does n ot have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all work done in his shop.=C2- I believe this situation may be a result of his convicti on for falsifying maintenance records.=C2- Because of these factors, and m y recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me with competent service =93 service that is so important to the safety and lives of the peopl e that I carry in my airplane.=C2- I feel obligated to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you can make your own conclusions. =C2- The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be shipped t o SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at Airmotive Specialties .=C2- I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in the air.=C2- It =99s been a long 7 months. =C2- Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X =C2- =C2-AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" =C2- 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA=C2- 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/ =C2- ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http ://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:55 AM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update Thanks Jim, for the response.=C2- Since I am not a mechanic, I must rely on others more knowledgeable to advise me regarding these matters.=C2- All the items mentioned in your comments regarding ring type, sizes, installation, etc have been looked at by many mechanics and experts (except I don=99t remember any mention of chrome vs iron).=C2- Nothing seemed to be out of order.=C2- I will check on the chrome vs iron situation.=C2- Regarding my comments about Morris, I thought long about whether to share with the group.=C2- I believe that he let me down (whether or not he was responsible for the failures).=C2- If he let me down, he might let someone else down.=C2- Thanks again for your post. RD 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA=C2- 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update HI RANDY. I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines. I have to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not impossible. I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts. I think it is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil. In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and never changed to mineral oil. A wise old mechanic I learned from taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor required that the oil be changed. I have no idea what difference that makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not seat properly. I have even changed many cyl without installing new rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work. He taught that if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they had originally run) and they always did. I have a couple jugs on my P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong. I also doubt that heat is the problem. Morris Kernick has scolded me for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to believe he would do that?? Last was tight ring gap. The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for cold weather ops. The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 F and below) If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each other and may brake. Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the bottom when the engine is cold. As the engine (cyl) warms to operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight. This is why it is very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying power. If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still be in the cyl bore. As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will be squeezed in and out. This can also break a ring or scar the cyl walls. I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have been installed. The damage you describe is consistent with that. There are two major ring types, chrome and iron. Chrome rings are used only in steel cyl, and vice versa. If chrome rings are installed in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur. The shop who tore your engines down should have checked this very first. Second would be that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be up, toward the top of the piston) Most modern rings are a chevron design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to expand and seal more tightly in the cyl. If the are not installed properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings. This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit. Beyond that, ???? Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop. If the cyl came as an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine?? I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today. He has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone. He is however human and like all of us can make mistakes. I don't know what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out. Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy. I too look forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad that all this had to happen to you. Good luck jb -----Original Message----- From: Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:03 pm Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right engine - at the same time.=C2- Here=99s an update. After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the crank).=C2- The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during the previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be re-built.=C2- Here=99s the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of oil through the breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual inspection.=C2- Both engines had cylinders replaced during the annual inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left).=C2- I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence. My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil in the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended by Lycoming).=C2- He says that it is not necessary.=C2- Several engine experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate that they look too =9Cused=9D to be 5.5. hours old.=C2- Morris and the cylinder shop deny that they are used.=C2- Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE is currently re-building the engines (at $50K each).=C2- They indicate that the cylinder walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, and can be a cause of excessive =9Cblow-by=9D and crankcase pressurization.=C2- I have always been very careful about temps, so the only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test run.=C2- Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the situation.=C2- I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and accountability.=C2- He has been virtually silent since the incident.=C2- I have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not called me once.=C2- He says that nothing he did caused the failures.=C2- Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would have expected him to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to trouble shoot the problems and help me with a solution.=C2- We still do not know definitely what caused the failures.=C2- Morris did give me an engine core, which I would value at around $15-20K.=C2- I believe that he is hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being accountable for the work leaving his shop.=C2- At this time, I am still analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred because of this incident. In any case, I wanted to share my story.=C2- I have always liked Morris, and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders.=C2- Morris does not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all work done in his shop.=C2- I believe this situation may be a result of his conviction for falsifying maintenance records.=C2- Because of these factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me with competent service =93 service that is so important to the safety and lives of the people that I carry in my airplane.=C2- I feel obligated to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you can make your own conclusions. The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at Airmotive Specialties.=C2- I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in the air.=C2- It=99s been a long 7 months. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA=C2- 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/ _____ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail ! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:30 AM PST US From: John Vormbaum Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update Randy, Jimbob, One thing I would like to ask, to clarify: I understand that the failed rod was NOT on any of the cylinders that Morris replaced, is that correct? I heard that the failed rod was on an adjacent cylinder to the replaced one. How would all the causes listed below affect a cylinder that wasn't replaced? Can a new cylinder have negative effects on adjacent jugs? Cheers, /John yourtcfg@aol.com wrote: > HI RANDY. I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines. I have > to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not > impossible. I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts. I think it > is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil. > In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and > never changed to mineral oil. A wise old mechanic I learned from > taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor > required that the oil be changed. I have no idea what difference that > makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not > seat properly. I have even changed many cyl without installing new > rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work. He taught that > if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any > kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they > had originally run) and they always did. I have a couple jugs on my > P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong. > I also doubt that heat is the problem. Morris Kernick has scolded me > for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to > believe he would do that?? > Last was tight ring gap. The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for > cold weather ops. The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 > F and below) If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each > other and may brake. Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning > that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the > bottom when the engine is cold. As the engine (cyl) warms to > operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight. This is why it is > very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying > power. If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still > be in the cyl bore. As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will > be squeezed in and out. This can also break a ring or scar the cyl > walls. > I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have > been installed. The damage you describe is consistent with that. > There are two major ring types, chrome and iron. Chrome rings are > used only in steel cyl, and vice versa. If chrome rings are installed > in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur. The shop who tore your > engines down should have checked this very first. Second would be > that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be > up, toward the top of the piston) Most modern rings are a chevron > design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to > expand and seal more tightly in the cyl. If the are not installed > properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings. > This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit. Beyond > that, ???? > Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop. If the cyl came as > an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all > Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine?? > I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without > a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today. He > has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone. He > is however human and like all of us can make mistakes. I don't know > what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out. > Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy. I too look > forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad > that all this had to happen to you. Good luck > > jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Dettmer, AIA > To: Commander Chat > Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:03 pm > Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update > > Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the > left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right > engine - at the same time. Heres an update. > > After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil > pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the > crank). The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during > the previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be > re-built. Heres the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of > oil through the breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both > incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual > inspection. Both engines had cylinders replaced during the annual > inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left). > > I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence. > > My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the > airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil > in the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended > by Lycoming). He says that it is not necessary. Several engine > experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate > that they look too used to be 5.5. hours old. Morris and the > cylinder shop deny that they are used. Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE > is currently re-building the engines (at $50K each). They indicate > that the cylinder walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, > and can be a cause of excessive blow-by and crankcase > pressurization. I have always been very careful about temps, so the > only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test > run. Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the > situation. I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and > accountability. He has been virtually silent since the incident. I > have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not > called me once. He says that nothing he did caused the failures. > Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would have expected him > to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to trouble shoot > the problems and help me with a solution. We still do not know > definitely what caused the failures. Morris did give me an engine > core, which I would value at around $15-20K. I believe that he is > hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being > accountable for the work leaving his shop. At this time, I am still > analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred > because of this incident. > > In any case, I wanted to share my story. I have always liked Morris, > and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders. Morris does > not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all > work done in his shop. I believe this situation may be a result of > his conviction for falsifying maintenance records. Because of these > factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me > with competent service service that is so important to the safety > and lives of the people that I carry in my airplane. I feel obligated > to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you > can make your own conclusions. > > The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be > shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at > Airmotive Specialties. I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in > the air. Its been a long 7 months. > > Randy Dettmer, AIA > 680F/N6253X > > AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" > > *663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405* > *805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865* > *http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/*** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail > ! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:42 AM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update The failed rod was on the number 6 cylinder. The replaced cylinder was next to the failed rod/cylinder. There is still much mystery as to what caused the rod to fail. We know it was not because of lack of lubrication, even though the engine was spewing oil out the breather. It apparently failed before all oil was lost. RD 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 9:47 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update Randy, Jimbob, One thing I would like to ask, to clarify: I understand that the failed rod was NOT on any of the cylinders that Morris replaced, is that correct? I heard that the failed rod was on an adjacent cylinder to the replaced one. How would all the causes listed below affect a cylinder that wasn't replaced? Can a new cylinder have negative effects on adjacent jugs? Cheers, /John yourtcfg@aol.com wrote: > HI RANDY. I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines. I have > to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not > impossible. I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts. I think it > is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil. > In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and > never changed to mineral oil. A wise old mechanic I learned from > taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor > required that the oil be changed. I have no idea what difference that > makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not > seat properly. I have even changed many cyl without installing new > rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work. He taught that > if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any > kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they > had originally run) and they always did. I have a couple jugs on my > P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong. > I also doubt that heat is the problem. Morris Kernick has scolded me > for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to > believe he would do that?? > Last was tight ring gap. The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for > cold weather ops. The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 > F and below) If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each > other and may brake. Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning > that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the > bottom when the engine is cold. As the engine (cyl) warms to > operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight. This is why it is > very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying > power. If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still > be in the cyl bore. As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will > be squeezed in and out. This can also break a ring or scar the cyl > walls. > I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have > been installed. The damage you describe is consistent with that. > There are two major ring types, chrome and iron. Chrome rings are > used only in steel cyl, and vice versa. If chrome rings are installed > in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur. The shop who tore your > engines down should have checked this very first. Second would be > that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be > up, toward the top of the piston) Most modern rings are a chevron > design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to > expand and seal more tightly in the cyl. If the are not installed > properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings. > This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit. Beyond > that, ???? > Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop. If the cyl came as > an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all > Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine?? > I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without > a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today. He > has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone. He > is however human and like all of us can make mistakes. I don't know > what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out. > Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy. I too look > forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad > that all this had to happen to you. Good luck > > jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Dettmer, AIA > To: Commander Chat > Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:03 pm > Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update > > Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the > left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right > engine - at the same time. Here's an update. > > After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil > pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the > crank). The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during > the previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be > re-built. Here's the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of > oil through the breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both > incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual > inspection. Both engines had cylinders replaced during the annual > inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left). > > I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence. > > My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the > airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil > in the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended > by Lycoming). He says that it is not necessary. Several engine > experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate > that they look too "used" to be 5.5. hours old. Morris and the > cylinder shop deny that they are used. Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE > is currently re-building the engines (at $50K each). They indicate > that the cylinder walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, > and can be a cause of excessive "blow-by" and crankcase > pressurization. I have always been very careful about temps, so the > only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test > run. Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the > situation. I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and > accountability. He has been virtually silent since the incident. I > have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not > called me once. He says that nothing he did caused the failures. > Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would have expected him > to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to trouble shoot > the problems and help me with a solution. We still do not know > definitely what caused the failures. Morris did give me an engine > core, which I would value at around $15-20K. I believe that he is > hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being > accountable for the work leaving his shop. At this time, I am still > analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred > because of this incident. > > In any case, I wanted to share my story. I have always liked Morris, > and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders. Morris does > not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all > work done in his shop. I believe this situation may be a result of > his conviction for falsifying maintenance records. Because of these > factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me > with competent service - service that is so important to the safety > and lives of the people that I carry in my airplane. I feel obligated > to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you > can make your own conclusions. > > The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be > shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at > Airmotive Specialties. I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in > the air. It's been a long 7 months. > > Randy Dettmer, AIA > 680F/N6253X > > AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" > > *663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405* > *805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865* > *http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/*** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail > ! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:25 AM PST US From: John Vormbaum Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update These are dry-sump engines, right? Would overfilling have an effect? Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote: > > The failed rod was on the number 6 cylinder. The replaced cylinder was next to the failed rod/cylinder. There is still much mystery as to what caused the rod to fail. We know it was not because of lack of lubrication, even though the engine was spewing oil out the breather. It apparently failed before all oil was lost. > > RD > > > 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 > 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 > http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Vormbaum > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 9:47 AM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update > > > Randy, Jimbob, > > One thing I would like to ask, to clarify: I understand that the failed > rod was NOT on any of the cylinders that Morris replaced, is that > correct? I heard that the failed rod was on an adjacent cylinder to the > replaced one. > > How would all the causes listed below affect a cylinder that wasn't > replaced? Can a new cylinder have negative effects on adjacent jugs? > > Cheers, > > /John > > yourtcfg@aol.com wrote: > >> HI RANDY. I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines. I have >> to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not >> impossible. I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts. I think it >> is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil. >> In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and >> never changed to mineral oil. A wise old mechanic I learned from >> taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor >> required that the oil be changed. I have no idea what difference that >> makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not >> seat properly. I have even changed many cyl without installing new >> rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work. He taught that >> if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any >> kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they >> had originally run) and they always did. I have a couple jugs on my >> P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong. >> I also doubt that heat is the problem. Morris Kernick has scolded me >> for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to >> believe he would do that?? >> Last was tight ring gap. The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for >> cold weather ops. The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 >> F and below) If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each >> other and may brake. Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning >> that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the >> bottom when the engine is cold. As the engine (cyl) warms to >> operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight. This is why it is >> very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying >> power. If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still >> be in the cyl bore. As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will >> be squeezed in and out. This can also break a ring or scar the cyl >> walls. >> I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have >> been installed. The damage you describe is consistent with that. >> There are two major ring types, chrome and iron. Chrome rings are >> used only in steel cyl, and vice versa. If chrome rings are installed >> in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur. The shop who tore your >> engines down should have checked this very first. Second would be >> that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be >> up, toward the top of the piston) Most modern rings are a chevron >> design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to >> expand and seal more tightly in the cyl. If the are not installed >> properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings. >> This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit. Beyond >> that, ???? >> Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop. If the cyl came as >> an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all >> Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine?? >> I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without >> a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today. He >> has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone. He >> is however human and like all of us can make mistakes. I don't know >> what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out. >> Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy. I too look >> forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad >> that all this had to happen to you. Good luck >> >> jb >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Randy Dettmer, AIA >> To: Commander Chat >> Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:03 pm >> Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update >> >> Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the >> left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right >> engine - at the same time. Here's an update. >> >> After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil >> pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the >> crank). The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during >> the previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be >> re-built. Here's the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of >> oil through the breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both >> incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual >> inspection. Both engines had cylinders replaced during the annual >> inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left). >> >> I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence. >> >> My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the >> airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil >> in the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended >> by Lycoming). He says that it is not necessary. Several engine >> experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate >> that they look too "used" to be 5.5. hours old. Morris and the >> cylinder shop deny that they are used. Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE >> is currently re-building the engines (at $50K each). They indicate >> that the cylinder walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, >> and can be a cause of excessive "blow-by" and crankcase >> pressurization. I have always been very careful about temps, so the >> only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test >> run. Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the >> situation. I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and >> accountability. He has been virtually silent since the incident. I >> have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not >> called me once. He says that nothing he did caused the failures. >> Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would have expected him >> to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to trouble shoot >> the problems and help me with a solution. We still do not know >> definitely what caused the failures. Morris did give me an engine >> core, which I would value at around $15-20K. I believe that he is >> hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being >> accountable for the work leaving his shop. At this time, I am still >> analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred >> because of this incident. >> >> In any case, I wanted to share my story. I have always liked Morris, >> and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders. Morris does >> not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all >> work done in his shop. I believe this situation may be a result of >> his conviction for falsifying maintenance records. Because of these >> factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me >> with competent service - service that is so important to the safety >> and lives of the people that I carry in my airplane. I feel obligated >> to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you >> can make your own conclusions. >> >> The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be >> shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at >> Airmotive Specialties. I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in >> the air. It's been a long 7 months. >> >> Randy Dettmer, AIA >> 680F/N6253X >> >> AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" >> >> *663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405* >> *805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865* >> *http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/*** >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail >> ! >> > > > __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________ > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update From: yourtcfg@aol.com No, that should not matter.? If they are overfilled, the oil bladders can be damaged as the recovery pump (scavenge)?in the engine would return too much oil to the tank, but the breather should not be effected.? jb -----Original Message----- From: John Vormbaum Sent: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:07 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update ? These are dry-sump engines, right? Would overfilling have an effect?? ? Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote:? >? > The failed rod was on the number 6 cylinder. The replaced cylinder was next to the failed rod/cylinder. There is still much mystery as to what caused the rod to fail. We know it was not because of lack of lubrication, even though the engine was spewing oil out the breather. It apparently failed before all oil was lost.? >? > RD? >? >? >? > 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405? > 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865? > http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/? >? > -----Original Message-----? > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Vormbaum? > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 9:47 AM? > To: commander-list@matronics.com? > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update? >? >? > Randy, Jimbob,? >? > One thing I would like to ask, to clarify: I understand that the failed? > rod was NOT on any of the cylinders that Morris replaced, is that? > correct? I heard that the failed rod was on an adjacent cylinder to the? > replaced one.? >? > How would all the causes listed below affect a cylinder that wasn't? > replaced? Can a new cylinder have negative effects on adjacent jugs?? >? > Cheers,? >? > /John? >? > yourtcfg@aol.com wrote:? > >> HI RANDY. I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines. I have? >> to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not? >> impossible. I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts. I think it? >> is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil. >> In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and? >> never changed to mineral oil. A wise old mechanic I learned from? >> taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor? >> required that the oil be changed. I have no idea what difference that? >> makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not? >> seat properly. I have even changed many cyl without installing new? >> rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work. He taught that? >> if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any? >> kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they? >> had originally run) and they always did. I have a couple jugs on my? >> P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong.? >> I also doubt that heat is the problem. Morris Kernick has scolded me? >> for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to? >> believe he would do that??? >> Last was tight ring gap. The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for? >> cold weather ops. The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0? >> F and below) If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each? >> other and may brake. Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning? >> that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the? >> bottom when the engine is cold. As the engine (cyl) warms to? >> operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight. This is why it is? >> very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying? >> power. If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still? >> be in the cyl bore. As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will? >> be squeezed in and out. This can also break a ring or scar the cyl? >> walls.? >> I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have? >> been installed. The damage you describe is consistent with that. >> There are two major ring types, chrome and iron. Chrome rings are? >> used only in steel cyl, and vice versa. If chrome rings are installed? >> in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur. The shop who tore your? >> engines down should have checked this very first. Second would be? >> that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be? >> up, toward the top of the piston) Most modern rings are a chevron? >> design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to? >> expand and seal more tightly in the cyl. If the are not installed? >> properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings. >> This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit. Beyond? >> that, ????? >> Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop. If the cyl came as? >> an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all? >> Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine??? >> I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without? >> a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today. He? >> has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone. He? >> is however human and like all of us can make mistakes. I don't know? >> what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out. >> Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy. I too look? >> forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad? >> that all this had to happen to you. Good luck? >>? >> jb? >>? >>? >>? >> -----Original Message-----? >> From: Randy Dettmer, AIA ? >> To: Commander Chat ? >> Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:03 pm? >> Subject: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update? >>? >> Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the? >> left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right? >> engine - at the same time. Here's an update.? >>? >> After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil? >> pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the? >> crank). The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during? >> the previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be? >> re-built. Here's the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of? >> oil through the breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both? >> incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual? >> inspection. Both engines had cylinders replaced during the annual? >> inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left).? >>? >> I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence.? >>? >> My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the? >> airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil? >> in the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended? >> by Lycoming). He says that it is not necessary. Several engine? >> experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate? >> that they look too "used" to be 5.5. hours old. Morris and the? >> cylinder shop deny that they are used. Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE? >> is currently re-building the engines (at $50K each). They indicate? >> that the cylinder walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating,? >> and can be a cause of excessive "blow-by" and crankcase? >> pressurization. I have always been very careful about temps, so the? >> only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test? >> run. Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the? >> situation. I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and? >> accountability. He has been virtually silent since the incident. I? >> have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not? >> called me once. He says that nothing he did caused the failures. >> Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would have expected him? >> to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to trouble shoot? >> the problems and help me with a solution. We still do not know? >> definitely what caused the failures. Morris did give me an engine? >> core, which I would value at around $15-20K. I believe that he is? >> hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being? >> accountable for the work leaving his shop. At this time, I am still? >> analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred? >> because of this incident.? >>? >> In any case, I wanted to share my story. I have always liked Morris,? >> and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders. Morris does? >> not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all? >> work done in his shop. I believe this situation may be a result of? >> his conviction for falsifying maintenance records. Because of these? >> factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me? >> with competent service - service that is so important to the safety? >> and lives of the people that I carry in my airplane. I feel obligated? >> to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you? >> can make your own conclusions.? >>? >> The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be? >> shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at? >> Airmotive Specialties. I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in? >> the air. It's been a long 7 months.? >>? >> Randy Dettmer, AIA? >> 680F/N6253X? >>? >> AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature"? >>? >> *663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405*? >> *805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865*? >> *http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/***? >>? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------? >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail? >> !? >> >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? > __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________? >? >? >? >? > ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. 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