Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:26 AM - Re: Rush Limbaugh and me (Catherine Chagnot)
2. 05:15 AM - Group Hug? (Steve at Col-East)
3. 05:24 AM - Re: Group Hug? (nico css)
4. 05:59 AM - Re: environment global warming (N395V)
5. 06:01 AM - Re: Group Hug? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: environment global warming (JTAddington)
7. 09:01 AM - Re: Rush Limbaugh and me (mosquito56)
8. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: environment global warming (Kerry Johnson)
9. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (Bill Bow)
10. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (Catherine Chagnot)
11. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (David Owens)
12. 03:14 PM - Re: Rush Limbaugh and me (Gary Moshluk)
13. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (Steve @ Col-East)
14. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (Tylor Hall)
15. 04:07 PM - Re: Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (John Vormbaum)
16. 11:44 PM - Re: Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (Catherine Chagnot)
17. 11:54 PM - Re: Re: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! (Catherine Chagnot)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rush Limbaugh and me |
All of this sounds awfully fanatical to me. And it's downright scary
to even think of voicing any opposing opinion.......Lest One be
construed as someone trying to destroy One's country....
In the words of Winston Churchill....."A fanatic is someone that
redoubles their effort once they've lost sight of their goals."
Airplane talk is so much more interesting.......
Cate
N4278S 680E
Message 2
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Some good ideas were exchanged about subjects people feel strongly
about, and nobody got hurt. I want to reread some of the posts. I
understand a lot of where the sentiments come from. Maybe I contributed
some too.
I'll stop if you guys will! (Until the next time?)
Peace,
Steve
Message 3
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Planes and Commanders rule!
You got it. There was never a battle, just an exchange of ideas.
Thanks, Steve.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at
Col-East
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 5:13 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Group Hug?
Some good ideas were exchanged about subjects people feel strongly about,
and nobody got hurt. I want to reread some of the posts. I understand a lot
of where the sentiments come from. Maybe I contributed some too.
I'll stop if you guys will! (Until the next time?)
Peace,
Steve
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: environment global warming |
> I find the hostility toward the notion that we might be affecting the
> environment in a dramatic fashion very odd.
I do not think you are seeing hostility towards the "notion" that we are affecting
the environment.
What you see hostility towards are the egg sucking liberals who are attempting
to use this as a wedge issue and blaming George Bush for everything that is wrong
with the environment. Especially Al Gore whos home uses more BTUs per year
than some small cities.
You are seeing hostility towards the hypoctisy of the far left.
Clearly the environment is changing and clearly humans habits are impacting the
environment.
The question is as John alluded to are we impacting it at a statistically significant
rate, ie if all humans were gone tomorrow what and how quickly would things
change.
I doubt Bush is hiding a smoking gun of info that says we are causing the end of
the world. That is just more liberal BS and sourgrapes from an egghead who had
his grant cancelled.
The truth about scientific data to date is the data is conflicting and in disagreement,
we really do not know how to interpret the data, The contribution of
mankind to the trends is miniscule compared to natural forces so determining its
true impact is beyond the capability of our analytic capabilities.
The entire northern North American continent was once under ice and it is now gone.
The Southern half was under an ocean. All this changed long before the internal
combustion revolution and pampers. Now how can Al Gore possibly blame that
on us or George Bush?
In any event as you noted we can destroy our economy and way of life by going overboard
on protecting the environment and it matters naught because the billions
in 3rd world countries are going to consume the earth within the next hundred
years. But I suppose that is Bushs fault also. Maybe Barack or Hilary will
save us, especially if they appoint Pelosi and Boxer to important environmental
positions.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145355#145355
Message 5
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Very Well Done Gentlemen!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 11/12/2007 7:25:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Planes and Commanders rule!
You got it. There was never a battle, just an exchange of ideas.
Thanks, Steve.
Nico
Do Not Archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: environment global warming |
Milt, I like your way of telling it like it is. I whole heartedly agree. The
news media is doing there best to do like the North Koreans did to our guys
in there POW camps, it's called brain washing.
Jim Addington
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: environment global warming
<airboss@excaliburaviation.com>
> I find the hostility toward the notion that we might be affecting the
> environment in a dramatic fashion very odd.
I do not think you are seeing hostility towards the "notion" that we are
affecting the environment.
What you see hostility towards are the egg sucking liberals who are
attempting to use this as a wedge issue and blaming George Bush for
everything that is wrong with the environment. Especially Al Gore whos home
uses more BTUs per year than some small cities.
You are seeing hostility towards the hypoctisy of the far left.
Clearly the environment is changing and clearly humans habits are impacting
the environment.
The question is as John alluded to are we impacting it at a statistically
significant rate, ie if all humans were gone tomorrow what and how quickly
would things change.
I doubt Bush is hiding a smoking gun of info that says we are causing the
end of the world. That is just more liberal BS and sourgrapes from an
egghead who had his grant cancelled.
The truth about scientific data to date is the data is conflicting and in
disagreement, we really do not know how to interpret the data, The
contribution of mankind to the trends is miniscule compared to natural
forces so determining its true impact is beyond the capability of our
analytic capabilities.
The entire northern North American continent was once under ice and it is
now gone. The Southern half was under an ocean. All this changed long before
the internal combustion revolution and pampers. Now how can Al Gore possibly
blame that on us or George Bush?
In any event as you noted we can destroy our economy and way of life by
going overboard on protecting the environment and it matters naught because
the billions in 3rd world countries are going to consume the earth within
the next hundred years. But I suppose that is Bushs fault also. Maybe Barack
or Hilary will save us, especially if they appoint Pelosi and Boxer to
important environmental positions.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145355#145355
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rush Limbaugh and me |
And I think how much time I could have been working on my plane then reading this
dribble. I gave up on politics when I stopped drinking.
GOD BLESS AMERICA, I am not a Christian, I am a none of the above
George Bush is Mentally Challenged.
Support the troops, Hate the War, Vietran
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance
in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145418#145418
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: environment global warming |
All one needs to do to get a clear understanding of who is concerned about
the environment and who isn't, who is telling the truth as they know it to
be and who is running a scam is to look at the homes the people built to
live in.
KV Electric, INC.
Kerry Johnson, President
1139 North 1210 West
St. George, UT 84770
(435) 673-4696 Office
(435) 673-4731 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JTAddington
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: environment global warming
<jtaddington@verizon.net>
Milt, I like your way of telling it like it is. I whole heartedly agree. The
news media is doing there best to do like the North Koreans did to our guys
in there POW camps, it's called brain washing.
Jim Addington
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: environment global warming
<airboss@excaliburaviation.com>
> I find the hostility toward the notion that we might be affecting the
> environment in a dramatic fashion very odd.
I do not think you are seeing hostility towards the "notion" that we are
affecting the environment.
What you see hostility towards are the egg sucking liberals who are
attempting to use this as a wedge issue and blaming George Bush for
everything that is wrong with the environment. Especially Al Gore whos home
uses more BTUs per year than some small cities.
You are seeing hostility towards the hypoctisy of the far left.
Clearly the environment is changing and clearly humans habits are impacting
the environment.
The question is as John alluded to are we impacting it at a statistically
significant rate, ie if all humans were gone tomorrow what and how quickly
would things change.
I doubt Bush is hiding a smoking gun of info that says we are causing the
end of the world. That is just more liberal BS and sourgrapes from an
egghead who had his grant cancelled.
The truth about scientific data to date is the data is conflicting and in
disagreement, we really do not know how to interpret the data, The
contribution of mankind to the trends is miniscule compared to natural
forces so determining its true impact is beyond the capability of our
analytic capabilities.
The entire northern North American continent was once under ice and it is
now gone. The Southern half was under an ocean. All this changed long before
the internal combustion revolution and pampers. Now how can Al Gore possibly
blame that on us or George Bush?
In any event as you noted we can destroy our economy and way of life by
going overboard on protecting the environment and it matters naught because
the billions in 3rd world countries are going to consume the earth within
the next hundred years. But I suppose that is Bushs fault also. Maybe Barack
or Hilary will save us, especially if they appoint Pelosi and Boxer to
important environmental positions.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145355#145355
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
You mean one that is 30 years old and has no RECORDED damage history, since
nobody would ever repair one without telling the FAA. <G>
bilbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BradG27Z
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff!
I am not interested in your 10,000 or 18,000 hour airframe. I am not
interested in an aircraft with a damage history.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144568#144568
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
No One has yet answered my question;
"Correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will).....
Wouldn't a 'Cream Puff' 500S or B of under 5000 hrs possibly have a
serious spar issue waiting to be found where as over 10,000 hrs, if
it's still flying it's had any possible spar issues dealt with?
Though familiar with the issues for my 680E I'm not too sure about
others.
Any comments?
Cate
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
Who's to say??? If the aircraft was hangared all those years, and the
annual had an aggressive anti corrosion effort, coupled with careful
cleaning etc. it might be ok. If it were left outside for a few years,
or flew it's small ammount of time in a salty environment... Then what?
Also I would guess if it were used for survey that could also play into
it. ????
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rush Limbaugh and me |
Nico,
Your call To Rush was the best summary of what is happening to my/our
beloved United States. I only regret not having the presence of mind to
have put it so succinctly. These liberal activists are insane mad men
and women - how so many are fooled by their gibberish is amazing. I
honestly think it is time to clean the House (of representatives) and
the Senate too for that matter. We have created a political aristocracy
without conscience or morality that is destroying our Nation. It is
truly seditionist in my view.
These liberals are dangerous and must thrown from the steps of the
Capital as you would a drunk out of a saloon.
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 1:02 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Rush Limbaugh and me
Folks, this list is quite unique as it has content that are almost
always of profound interest to other members, oftentimes not about
Commanders but always about the group's interests. It's more like a
fire-side chat than a technical list. And when people with common
interests and passions sit together and talk, many a profound thing is
exchanged. We talk about Commanders (first and foremost) but also about
aviation in general, aircraft systems, engines, navaids, others'
experiences, life loves, others who had an unequal number of take-offs
and landings, politics, morals, and sometimes even religion. Those who
are offended leave and they even leave with decorum. Those who have
remained with us over the years have forged an invisible (to some)
familial bond that is hard to describe, but wholly unnecessary to
define. Not everyone agrees with what is said but an unspoken rule of
respect prevails without sowing discord or insult. It's indeed unique,
enjoyable, and a privilege.
Everyone who has been on this list for a while knows that I, like so
many others, am a patriot of this country in the extreme and not ashamed
to proclaim that whenever I have a chance. But what does that mean? The
best I can convey that to you, my family, is with a conversation I had
with Rush Limbaugh last Monday. I didn't get to say everything I wanted,
which is quite understandable considering the time issues with that
medium, but that Rush gave me more than 6 minutes was in itself quite an
achievement.
In this time of war, which I believe was perfectly justified and
necessary, assistance to our troops is of paramount importance, calling
all of us to find some manner in which we can express our gratitude. I
chose the manner of my support as I described it to Rush. Some of you
might be interested in it. If you believe it's appropriate, please pass
this on. We have already cut our first check for MCLEF and hope to do it
again at the end of November.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF-FtJq5-pM
Let me know what you think.
Thanks
Nico
PS. Some years ago someone on the list questioned whether I really
exist. Well, I guess, now the cat is out of the bag.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:49 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: environment global warming
Ah! At last. Something from the list.
I posted some messages this week and for some reason they just
disappeared into never land. I'll see if this one is posted.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 9:52 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: environment global warming
AMEN!! I just read where the head of NASA (they own the satellites
that measure temp, ocean levels etc) said in a press release that the is
simply no proof of "global warning". In fact, in a related piece , the
recorded mid level temps have fallen .036 deg in the last 20 years!!
That may be why we hear less about "global warming" and more the phrase
"Global climate change?? JB
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: environment global warming
<john@vormbaum.com>
Nico,
I have to say that I agree with you totally. The carbon offset theme
is a huge scam. To repeat myself from yesterday, focusing on JUST CO2
vs. Methane and a collection of other greenhouse gases is one indicator
of the stupidity of the politicians.
I too, living in northern CA, one of the most beautiful places in the
US, try to behave as if I weren't here. I don't litter, pick up trash
when I see it, recycle, don't waste water, don't hunt whales or
elephants (OK, not so many elephants here), live as "green" a lifestyle
as I can outside of flying, and generally try to be a
zero-environmental-impact resident.
I am with you 100% regarding the toxic natural events of the planet's
past. As someone who took a few (albeit informative) environmental
science classes in college, one thing that becomes clear pretty quickly
is that it is a stretch, and a conceit, to think that we can destroy the
planet. The most we can do is make it unlivable for humans & several
other species. 200 million years after that, the Earth will once again
be beautiful, never noticing that we were ever here. It will also be
teeming with new species.
Oceanographers at Scripps have been studying the ocean's ability to
clean itself. If humans disappeared tomorrow, the oceans would be 100%
clean and unpolluted in only 3,000 years. That is the merest blink of an
eye, geologically. Hopefully there would still be whales left then.
A little anecdote here in norCal: For many years there have been
ongoing battles about logging & clearcutting. While I agree that we
shouldn't log the Headwaters Forest, I think the logging argument is way
overblown. I live at the foot of the Santa Cruz Mountains. In 1907,
after the big SF earthquake, they clearcut the ENTIRE RANGE, from SF
down to Salinas, for lumber to rebuild San Francisco. Stumps & weeds
were all that was left as far as the eye can see. A mere 100 years
later, and I look out my window and see lush, green, forested mountains.
I'll continue to be environmentally responsible, but you won't catch
me driving a Toyota Prius (based on the owners around here, they should
be called the "Toyota Pious") and thinking I'm the savior of the
environment. I bet the carbon footprint of Prius manufacture is 3x a
normal car.
/ramble mode off/
/John
Bill Bow wrote:
>
> Wow! I thought you lived in California Nico. <G>
>
> bilbo
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com >
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *nico
css
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 07, 2007 9:03 PM
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Commander-List: environment global warming
>
> Steve,
>
> I don't disagree with the notion that we ought to be conservators of
> the environment. I pick up behind me when I accidentally litter, clean
> up where we picnic and don't waste water, prefer a cleaner running >
engine than one that spews dirt into the air and so on. I firmly >
believe that no reasonable person would disagree that cleaning up when >
we are done or show care when we deal with what we do to the >
environment is a good and responsible thing to do. But to assume that >
we are influencing the globe's temperature is just not rational. If >
you claim to be na=EFve and believe in Santa Claus, I'll join you if it
> means being responsible custodians of the environment. But to believe
> that we can, are able, to affect climate change, is just not rational.
>
> Take the Krakatoa eruptions for instance: Years before the 1883 >
eruption, the volcano regularly spewed ash into the atmosphere >
reaching up to 20,000' with the noise being heard up to 100 miles >
away. The August 1883 eruptions caused 100' tsunamis and boats rocked >
in South Africa, thousands of miles away because of them. The sound of >
the explosions could be heard in Australia more than 2,000 miles away >
and in Mauritius, nearly 3,000 miles away. It shot more than 20 cubic >
kilometers of ash and toxic gasses, such as sulfur dioxide and >
sulfuric acid, 50 miles up into the stratosphere and spread it all >
over the planet, causing a five-year global acid rain. The sky was >
blood red and the moon was blue for years after the explosion and >
artists painted red sunsets in Sweden and Europe. The amount of ash >
that fell back to the earth covered about one million square >
kilometers drastically altering the ocean floor in the area and >
increasing the landmass of several islands in the area.
>
> In 1888, five years after the event, everything was back to normal.
> The planet cleaned the air, cleaned the ocean, normalized the >
temperatures, normalized the weather, and today that area is what some >
tourists call a pristine environment.
>
> Steve, I try to be rational about this global warming thing, but if
I > see the amount of soot, acid and pollution Saddam Hussein launched >
into the atmosphere after setting those oil fields on fire in the >
nineties, the Mt. St. Helens eruption, all the other natural events >
spewing millions of tons of toxic material into the air; an unknown >
amount of submarine fissures spewing toxic magma into the oceans, >
massive forest fires - and the planet deals with it, as it has been >
for millions of years, then it's hard to swallow the propaganda of >
global warming as anything but a hoax to blackmail us into parting >
with very large sums of money. I mean, where have you seen a more >
blatant fraud than the carbon-offset scheme? Or, the Kyoto treaty?
>
> I say again, I love the planet as you do, and I am an activist for >
responsible stewardship of resources and life, but this is a swindle, >
my friend. You wouldn't part with five bucks if someone proposed this >
as a business deal to you. You'd probably call the cops.
>
> One more thing. If they say that the temperatures would rise by 1 or
2 > deg, how would they measure that? Think about it. I pay tennis with
> friends about 10 miles from where I live. We like to play at 7 AM in >
the morning. Some mornings in the winter, the temperature difference >
is more than 18 degrees between the house and the tennis courts. >
Never, ever in the 10 years I've been playing there several times per >
week, has the temperature been the same at the house and at the >
courts. Ten miles? I can go 20 miles west and 1,000' down to the coast >
and the temperature would be vastly different again. On the same day. >
If the wind blows (you've heard of the Santa Ana's, I'm sure) the >
entire region's temperature is hay-wire. Where do they measure and >
when do they measure to come up with a definite 1 deg difference? >
Satellites? Weather stations? Balloons? How did they do it 1,000 years >
ago which is the time-frame some fraudsters use to determine the >
danger we're in?
>
> Nah. I'd stay with reason, thank you. I know mud when I see mud.
This > aint mud.
>
> Nico
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com >
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >
*Steve @ Col-East
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 07, 2007 3:40 PM
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Engine Analyzer
>
> I believe in the hoax.
>
> I find the hostility toward the notion that we might be affecting
the > environment in a dramatic fashion very odd. Agriculture, >
manufacturing, transportation, heating and cooling, recreation all >
contribute. 10,000 years of stable CO2 levels, begin a sharp rise at >
the dawn of the industrial age. The rate of change is increasing >
dramatically as billions more people adopt our style of living. The >
fact that the amount of these gases in the atmosphere influence the >
temperature cannot seriously be in dispute.
>
> Oil production has likely peaked. Consumption continues to rise. I >
guess I'm naive(I still believe in Santa Claus), but this doesn't seem >
sustainable.
>
> I love big old radials, belching steam locomotives, and big blocks.
> But if day to day I can make a little difference, I'll try.
>
> Green of Peak..... I like that.....
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* BobsV35B@aol.com <mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com>
>
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 06, 2007 4:22 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Engine Analyzer
>
> In a message dated 11/6/2007 3:07:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> nico@cybersuperstore.com <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> writes:
>
> Surely, you don't buy into the hoax, do you Old Bob?
>
> Good Evening Nico,
>
> What hoax is involved? I am always willing to learn!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
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Message 13
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| From: | "Steve @ Col-East" <steve2@sover.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff!Cate,
There's a very interesting Australian piece dealing with the history of
Commander spar problems. The author mixes some good data, along with
some speculation that needs to be more carefully evaluated.
http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/AeroCommander.pdf
Our 500B has an aluminum strap, versus the later models with stainless
steel. We shouldn't have the same degree of problems as those with
straps of a dissimilar metal. The B might be a better bet for the long
run, but who knows?.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Catherine Chagnot
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 4:56 PM
Subject: Commander-List: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream
puff!
No One has yet answered my question;
"Correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will).....
Wouldn't a 'Cream Puff' 500S or B of under 5000 hrs possibly have a
serious spar issue waiting to be found where as over 10,000 hrs, if
it's still flying it's had any possible spar issues dealt with?
Though familiar with the issues for my 680E I'm not too sure about
others.
Any comments?
Cate
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
Cate,
The older aircraft before the 500S and 690's do not have major spar
problems. There is an attachment near the leading edge that is an AD
and a very old spar strap AD. The newer aircraft have the inspection
every 36 months.
Corrosion is always a problem with older aircraft. On the per-1960
680, there is a concern about the landing gear where it attaches to
the wing spar. JB could be more specific about that.
The CASA paper goes into the first spar strap that was an AD to be
complied before 2000 TT. With yours at over 10,000 hours, I would
expect it to have been taken care of.
The problem of low time aircraft is the unseen and unknown problems.
With an aircraft that is flown a lot, it has to be taken care of. If
it has flown on part 135 and have 10,000+ hours, someone has been
looking at it a lot.
It is the rubber parts that just become old. Hoses, window seals,
boots, wire covering, and gaskets, just become old and tired.
Tylor Hall
On Nov 12, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Steve @ Col-East wrote:
> Cate,
>
> There's a very interesting Australian piece dealing with the history
> of Commander spar problems. The author mixes some good data, along
> with some speculation that needs to be more carefully evaluated.
>
> http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/AeroCommander.pdf
>
> Our 500B has an aluminum strap, versus the later models with
> stainless steel. We shouldn't have the same degree of problems as
> those with straps of a dissimilar metal. The B might be a better bet
> for the long run, but who knows?.
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Catherine Chagnot
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 4:56 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream
> puff!
>
> No One has yet answered my question;
>
> "Correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will).....
>
> Wouldn't a 'Cream Puff' 500S or B of under 5000 hrs possibly have a
> serious spar issue waiting to be found where as over 10,000 hrs, if
> it's still flying it's had any possible spar issues dealt with?
> Though familiar with the issues for my 680E I'm not too sure about
> others.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Cate
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref=
> "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
Steve,
I've read that report numerous times. I agree that there is quite a bit
of speculation involved, as well as a healthy dose of pessimism. I think
it's necessary to remind everyone that the incidences of true spar
corrosion are few, and even if bad, curable. The cure (new spar cap)
isn't cheap, but it is a one-time treatment!
My 1962 500B with 18,000+ hours on it has no corrosion and has
repeatedly passed inspections with flying colors. The B models aren't
subject to the same spar issues as the 500S models, and even so, minimal
numbers of Shrikes will ever see any spar corrosion. I bet John Towner,
who monitors this list, hasn't seen any spar corrosion on his 24,000 B
model.
I think a couple of the airplanes may have suffered from a "bad day at
the office" by the guys who built them. Missed primer, scratches in
metal, and other manufacturing errors that aren't inherent flaws in the
design; add to that a harsh climate (fish spotting, anyone?) and
questionable maintenance, and you are going to get a couple of airplanes
with issues.
The Wing Station 24 & Wing Station 39 issues have been conquered via AD
& inspection. Has there been a wing failure (that dogfighting midair
doesn't count) since 1968? There was that one guy who dove through a
level-5 thunderstorm at Vne, up in OR/WA area, but I think that's it.
That paper makes a bigger deal out of the wing issue than it should. My
6,750 Lb. airplane has essentially a 12,000 Lb. wing on it. I would have
to really overload / overstress it to get it to fail, if it's in good
shape to start with.
Also, why do the failure rates seem so much higher down under? Is it
because the airplanes are flying upside down?
At least I don't own a Cessna 400-series turbine.....they have absolute
life limits now!
/J
Steve @ Col-East wrote:
> Cate,
>
> There's a very interesting Australian piece dealing with the history
> of Commander spar problems. The author mixes some good data, along
> with some speculation that needs to be more carefully evaluated.
>
> http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/AeroCommander.pdf
>
> Our 500B has an aluminum strap, versus the later models with stainless
> steel. We shouldn't have the same degree of problems as those with
> straps of a dissimilar metal. The B might be a better bet for the long
> run, but who knows?.
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Catherine Chagnot <mailto:cchagnot@ultimateair.com>
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 12, 2007 4:56 PM
> *Subject:* Commander-List: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right
> cream puff!
>
> No One has yet answered my question;
>
> "*Correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will).....
>
> Wouldn't a 'Cream Puff' 500S or B of under 5000 hrs possibly have a
> serious spar issue waiting to be found where as over 10,000 hrs, if
> it's still flying it's had any possible spar issues dealt with?
> Though familiar with the issues for my 680E I'm not too sure about
> others.*
>
> Any comments?
>
> Cate
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
Tylor,
Thanks for the in depth answer. I thought as much. My plane has some
5400 hours on it. I was asking because of the guy looking for a low
time Commander and his absolute rejection of anything over 5000 hrs.
It brought to mind the inspections due and what might be found. I
think you're right and anything in regular service and well looked
after is a better bet than just a 'low time' airplane.
Thanks,
Cate
N4278S 680E
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Premium dollar for the right cream puff! |
Steve,
Thanks for that history on the Commander spar issue. I'd run across
it before but hadn't been able to relocate it. Now the pdf is stored
on my computer. Something to read while I'm over here working on
Stirling engines in Korea away from my Commander.......
Cate
N4278S 680E
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