---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/03/08: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:37 AM - Re: Century III Autopilot (W J R HAMILTON) 2. 03:40 AM - Re: BA 38--777 (W J R HAMILTON) 3. 03:50 AM - Re: Century III Autopilot (Barry Collman) 4. 12:53 PM - Re: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info (JTAddington) 5. 09:11 PM - Re: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info (Don) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:10 AM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: Century III Autopilot Barry, As well as the list members, suggest to Jonathan he puts the part number into the free search at , a very useful service. For a very reasonable fee, he can get the contact details of everybody listing the part no. They are a reasonably common servo. Cheers, Bill Hamilton At 22:20 2/02/2008, you wrote: >Hello All, > >Jonathan Palmer, the head of Mustique Airways, operates some Models >500B, 500U & 500S in St Vincent & The Grenadines. > >He is trying to "revive" a Century III Autopilot on the 500U. >He is looking for a Servo, P/N 1C469-1-221. > >Can anyone on the list point him towards a good source? > >Any help will, of course, be very much appreciated. > >Barry Collman >UK CommanderLand Rep. >High Wycombe, England >"Live life on the edge - if you don't take up too much space" > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:42 AM PST US From: W J R HAMILTON Subject: Re: Commander-List: BA 38--777 Dan, For your refresher, it is the fuel itself that is freezing solid at -40C, if it is JetA, or somewhat colder if it is Jet A-1 (-56C comes to mind), the water has long since come out of solution, that is why you have fuel filters and filter heaters, to melt the ice crystals, so it flows through the engine harmlessly. Generally you start applying fuel filter heat (manually or automatically) when the fuel temp. drops below +4C, of the filter differential pressure warning light illuminates. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ---------- At 04:49 3/02/2008, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I am pleased to say that my senario of events based on systems >knowledge has been born out. I am currently in recurrent trainging >which comes around every 9 months and what I hear is the same as >being posted on this site. I did make at least one mistake. I said >that battery power would power capt inst for 30 minutes. That goes >back to 727 and is not correct for 777. Bat power will only last >for 5 minutes due to high load but all those items will be picked up >by ram air turbine (RAT) when it deploys and comes up to >speed--about 40 seconds. The APU will come up in about a minute and >power all electrics (less gallies) and full compliment of hydraulics >at reduced rate. You must have electric and hydraulics to fly a 777. > >As to fuel temp. Jet A starts to form ice crystals at about -40C >(-40C & -40F are equal) so Boeing says at -37C to take corrective >action. The 777 does not have ability to heat fuel or aleast Rolls >engines do not. So the options are to seek a warmer altitude or >higher speed to increase skin temp. I have about 2500 hours on 777 >and have never see it a problem personally but know that it can be, >especially on the polar routes which I think BA was on. > >Clear as mud >dan > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net. & This message is intended for and should only be used by the addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information.If you are not the intended recipient any use distribution,disclosure or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.Confidentiality and legal privilege attached to this communication are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately to: Australia 61 (0)408 876 526 Dolores capitis non fero. Eos do. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:40 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Century III Autopilot Hi Bill, Grateful thanks - I'll pass that link on. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: W J R HAMILTON To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 11:31 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Century III Autopilot Barry, As well as the list members, suggest to Jonathan he puts the part number into the free search at < www.partslogistics.com> , a very useful service. For a very reasonable fee, he can get the contact details of everybody listing the part no. They are a reasonably common servo. Cheers, Bill Hamilton At 22:20 2/02/2008, you wrote: Hello All, Jonathan Palmer, the head of Mustique Airways, operates some Models 500B, 500U & 500S in St Vincent & The Grenadines. He is trying to "revive" a Century III Autopilot on the 500U. He is looking for a Servo, P/N 1C469-1-221. Can anyone on the list point him towards a good source? Any help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Barry Collman UK CommanderLand Rep. High Wycombe, England "Live life on the edge - if you don't take up too much space" ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:22 PM PST US From: "JTAddington" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info My memory is not the best but if I remember right when the MD-80 came out they had ice problems when the aircraft came down from altitude and landed at a cold airport and than went back to altitude. I have forgotten how they fixed the problem. I had moved on when we got the MD-80 so am not sure exactly what the problem really was. Jim Addington _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info I have had several experiences with Jet A and ice. The first was in 1966. I worked the summer at Meigs Field, Chicago, (now gone). A new Lear Jet had a dual engine flame out. The got a partial power back by the time they came across the field. As the tried to climb out, the flamed out a second time and put it down in Lake Michigan. It floated since it has a clam shell door. It floated two days unit it was lifted out and put on a truck to go to Midway. Lear Jet and most small Jet including turbo props Including TC, need Prist as an anti ice that keep the water in solution in the jet fuel. The other experience was in the mid 1990's during a test of some Jet A pumping one winter day. It was well below 0 the night before and the fuel and tanks was cold soaked. The Jet A fuel we used had lost of water in it. We used the fuel to flush out the new equipment and test the operation of Jet A bulk pumping equipment to fill refueler trucks. The system slowed down and stopped flowing. We shut down and started taking things apart. We removed the line strainer on Jet Single point nozzle and found the screen full of ice. It was a thin film of ice the completely stopped the 200 GPM flow. In looking at the fuel in a clear jar, we could see ice in the form of what looked like snow flakes suspended in the Jet A. The water was freezing into a solid and did not settle out. The water was so small it floated in the water. When it got cold enough, it froze. Dan, I was under the impression that most large airliners did not need Prist, because they have fuel heaters to deal with the low temperatures at altitude? We shipped some Jet A filter/separators to Antarctica. They use a special Jet fuel that is rated down to -78. Tylor Hall www.firstfueling.com On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:54 PM, W J R HAMILTON wrote: For the Avgas Burners. In brief, there are two common civil jet fuels, Jet A and Jet A-1, with different freeze temperatures ( and a host of Mil. fuels, from JP-4 (aka Jet B) though -5,-6.-7 -8) The significance of -37C is that it is a 3 degree pad on the freeze temperature of Jet A, so that is where the warning is set on most modern aircraft. At high Mach numbers, there is quite a temperature ram rise, the difference between OAT/SAT and "Total Air temperature" TAT. Very roughly TAT is OAT plus ram rise. If the fuel gets cold enough, you either have to increase Mach No. (ram rise) or find a warner air mass, generally but not always by descending, depending where the tropopause height happens to be, depending on latitude, season and the particular weather pattern on the day. The coldest air masses I have consistently found are over Russia/CIS states in winter, even colder than the certification envelope of Boeing aircraft, and significantly colder than any air masses over US/Canada, and colder than the ICAO standard atmosphere/textbooks suggest will be found. Such very cold temperatures bring with them a whole host of possibilities, not limited to the fuel going solid. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ( QANTAS Retired) _____ At 00:18 2/02/2008, you wrote: Put into terms a piston driver could understand, you kerosene burners monitor enroute fuel temps as a flight parameter? -37c seems like it must be quite common? Higher Mach number because of lower altitude? ----- Original Message ----- From: W J R HAMILTON Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Folks, Anybody interested can download the progressive reports from the UK at http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm As a matter of interest, the air masses over Russia/CIS/Eastern Europe were particularly cold that morning, aircraft were having to come as low as FL250, and maintain higher than LRC Mach No. to maintain fuel temps. warmer then -37C. Cheers, Bill Hamilton _____ At 14:13 1/02/2008, you wrote: I got this from a friend and thought you would like it. Jim Subject: Gastwick B-777 Info I recently received this from a Retied DL Colleague. I do not know the identity of the author. I have done some small bit of editing for my non pilot friends. Ken Heard from a friend regarding the U.K. 777 crash. As I recall this aircraft had Trent engines built by Rolls Royce. ****************************** ********************************* This is part of a message forwarded to me: Had the pleasure of chatting with a member of the NTSB board last night at dinner. Here is what he shared. Aircraft was at 600 ft agl (Above Ground Level ) when the right engine (RPM) started to roll back to slightly above flight idle. The First Officer was flying and auto throttles were engaged. The auto throttles moved the throttles up to catch the deceleration in airspeed. The right engine did not respond to the movement of the auto throttles. The First Officer disengaged the auto throttles and manually moved both throttles to max power as the Captain joined him and they both applied emergency power. Within 8 seconds of the right engine rolling back to just above flight idle the left engine did the exact same thing. The engines never changed RPM from that point till ground contact. The F/O continued flying and kept nibbling on the stick shaker to clear a hill just prior to the impact point. Apparently the crew is being hailed as heroes for their performance. The two areas under investigation are fuel that was uplifted in China. Ice in the fuel is a consideration and they are running chemical test at this time. The other area is engine software. So far they can confirm that everything from the throttles to the ECC's worked as it should. Its the info from the ECC's to the fuel controller that is in question. This aircraft had just had a software update 2 days earlier href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href=" http://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:28 PM PST US From: "Don" Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Jim; I vaguely remember that, but wasn't that ice on the outside of the wing caused by super cooled fuel. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: JTAddington To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 3:50 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info My memory is not the best but if I remember right when the MD-80 came out they had ice problems when the aircraft came down from altitude and landed at a cold airport and than went back to altitude. I have forgotten how they fixed the problem. I had moved on when we got the MD-80 so am not sure exactly what the problem really was. Jim Addington ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:49 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info I have had several experiences with Jet A and ice. The first was in 1966. I worked the summer at Meigs Field, Chicago, (now gone). A new Lear Jet had a dual engine flame out. The got a partial power back by the time they came across the field. As the tried to climb out, the flamed out a second time and put it down in Lake Michigan. It floated since it has a clam shell door. It floated two days unit it was lifted out and put on a truck to go to Midway. Lear Jet and most small Jet including turbo props Including TC, need Prist as an anti ice that keep the water in solution in the jet fuel. The other experience was in the mid 1990's during a test of some Jet A pumping one winter day. It was well below 0 the night before and the fuel and tanks was cold soaked. The Jet A fuel we used had lost of water in it. We used the fuel to flush out the new equipment and test the operation of Jet A bulk pumping equipment to fill refueler trucks. The system slowed down and stopped flowing. We shut down and started taking things apart. We removed the line strainer on Jet Single point nozzle and found the screen full of ice. It was a thin film of ice the completely stopped the 200 GPM flow. In looking at the fuel in a clear jar, we could see ice in the form of what looked like snow flakes suspended in the Jet A. The water was freezing into a solid and did not settle out. The water was so small it floated in the water. When it got cold enough, it froze. Dan, I was under the impression that most large airliners did not need Prist, because they have fuel heaters to deal with the low temperatures at altitude? We shipped some Jet A filter/separators to Antarctica. They use a special Jet fuel that is rated down to -78. Tylor Hall www.firstfueling.com On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:54 PM, W J R HAMILTON wrote: For the Avgas Burners. In brief, there are two common civil jet fuels, Jet A and Jet A-1, with different freeze temperatures ( and a host of Mil. fuels, from JP-4 (aka Jet B) though -5,-6.-7 -8) The significance of -37C is that it is a 3 degree pad on the freeze temperature of Jet A, so that is where the warning is set on most modern aircraft. At high Mach numbers, there is quite a temperature ram rise, the difference between OAT/SAT and "Total Air temperature" TAT. Very roughly TAT is OAT plus ram rise. If the fuel gets cold enough, you either have to increase Mach No. (ram rise) or find a warner air mass, generally but not always by descending, depending where the tropopause height happens to be, depending on latitude, season and the particular weather pattern on the day. The coldest air masses I have consistently found are over Russia/CIS states in winter, even colder than the certification envelope of Boeing aircraft, and significantly colder than any air masses over US/Canada, and colder than the ICAO standard atmosphere/textbooks suggest will be found. Such very cold temperatures bring with them a whole host of possibilities, not limited to the fuel going solid. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ( QANTAS Retired) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- At 00:18 2/02/2008, you wrote: Put into terms a piston driver could understand, you kerosene burners monitor enroute fuel temps as a flight parameter? -37c seems like it must be quite common? Higher Mach number because of lower altitude? ----- Original Message ----- From: W J R HAMILTON To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Folks, Anybody interested can download the progressive reports from the UK at http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm __at_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm As a matter of interest, the air masses over Russia/CIS/Eastern Europe were particularly cold that morning, aircraft were having to come as low as FL250, and maintain higher than LRC Mach No. to maintain fuel temps. warmer then -37C. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- At 14:13 1/02/2008, you wrote: I got this from a friend and thought you would like it. Jim Subject: Gastwick B-777 Info I recently received this from a Retied DL Colleague. I do not know the identity of the author. I have done some small bit of editing for my non pilot friends. Ken Heard from a friend regarding the U.K. 777 crash. As I recall this aircraft had Trent engines built by Rolls Royce. ****************************** ********************************* This is part of a message forwarded to me: Had the pleasure of chatting with a member of the NTSB board last night at dinner. Here is what he shared. Aircraft was at 600 ft agl (Above Ground Level ) when the right engine (RPM) started to roll back to slightly above flight idle. The First Officer was flying and auto throttles were engaged. The auto throttles moved the throttles up to catch the deceleration in airspeed. The right engine did not respond to the movement of the auto throttles. The First Officer disengaged the auto throttles and manually moved both throttles to max power as the Captain joined him and they both applied emergency power. Within 8 seconds of the right engine rolling back to just above flight idle the left engine did the exact same thing. The engines never changed RPM from that point till ground contact. The F/O continued flying and kept nibbling on the stick shaker to clear a hill just prior to the impact point. Apparently the crew is being hailed as heroes for their performance. The two areas under investigation are fuel that was uplifted in China. Ice in the fuel is a consideration and they are running chemical test at this time. The other area is engine software. So far they can confirm that everything from the throttles to the ECC's worked as it should. Its the info from the ECC's to the fuel controller that is in question. This aircraft had just had a software update 2 days earlier href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 2/3/2008 5:49 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.