Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:15 AM - BA38-777 (Dan Farmer)
2. 07:22 AM - Re: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info (JTAddington)
3. 11:51 AM - Re: BA38-777 (Don)
4. 01:07 PM - Re: BA38-777 Fuel Question (Steve W)
5. 01:34 PM - Re: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info (Robert S. Randazzo)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Mr. Bill
If you are saying at -40 jet A turns solid in the tanks I must respectfully disagree.
It would after several hours but it would take along time, just like
it will take a tank of water to freeze solid at 32F. It would have a tendancy
to clog filters, I doubt that fuel lines would freeze as you know fuel lines
are quite large with lots of flow. There is no provistion to select fuel heat
on a 777 with Rolls engines and I doubt it is automatically selected with out
some form of notice to the pilots. As you recall putting on fuel heat raises
the temp of engine oil significantly. In our training and manuals there is
no mention of fuel heat. The only mention of treatment is to find warmer altitude
or increase speed. Buy the way I had to research JA1 for freeze point and
it is -47C.
Someone on the site stated that he thought temp at high flight levels would be
much lower than -37C and that is correct. A pretty accurate guide to Stand
temp in the flight levels is to double the altitude and sub 15, ie at FL350 35
X 2 = 70 - 15 = - 55C. Ram rise or increase in skin temp at .80/.84 mach is
in the area of 30 deg C.
As I mentioned in last post was in school and sim last week. Tried to duplicate
BA 38 with what we guessed to be weight and wind. It took several attempts
to get to the first foot of the runway with a very hard touch down. They did
a hell of a good job--especially with that gal playing topless golf off to the
side.
dan
---------------------------------
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | FW: Gastwick B-777 Info |
I don't remember it could have been and I think you are right. It was a long
time ago and I was either on the B-727 or the L-1011 by then so did not pay
a lot of attention to it since it did not apply to me.
Jim
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
Jim;
I vaguely remember that, but wasn't that ice on the outside of the wing
caused by super cooled fuel.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: JTAddington <mailto:jtaddington@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
My memory is not the best but if I remember right when the MD-80 came out
they had ice problems when the aircraft came down from altitude and landed
at a cold airport and than went back to altitude. I have forgotten how they
fixed the problem. I had moved on when we got the MD-80 so am not sure
exactly what the problem really was.
Jim Addington
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
I have had several experiences with Jet A and ice.
The first was in 1966. I worked the summer at Meigs Field, Chicago, (now
gone). A new Lear Jet had a dual engine flame out. The got a partial power
back by the time they came across the field. As the tried to climb out, the
flamed out a second time and put it down in Lake Michigan. It floated since
it has a clam shell door. It floated two days unit it was lifted out and
put on a truck to go to Midway.
Lear Jet and most small Jet including turbo props Including TC, need Prist
as an anti ice that keep the water in solution in the jet fuel.
The other experience was in the mid 1990's during a test of some Jet A
pumping one winter day. It was well below 0 the night before and the fuel
and tanks was cold soaked. The Jet A fuel we used had lost of water in it.
We used the fuel to flush out the new equipment and test the operation of
Jet A bulk pumping equipment to fill refueler trucks.
The system slowed down and stopped flowing. We shut down and started taking
things apart. We removed the line strainer on Jet Single point nozzle and
found the screen full of ice. It was a thin film of ice the completely
stopped the 200 GPM flow.
In looking at the fuel in a clear jar, we could see ice in the form of what
looked like snow flakes suspended in the Jet A.
The water was freezing into a solid and did not settle out. The water was
so small it floated in the water. When it got cold enough, it froze.
Dan, I was under the impression that most large airliners did not need
Prist, because they have fuel heaters to deal with the low temperatures at
altitude?
We shipped some Jet A filter/separators to Antarctica. They use a special
Jet fuel that is rated down to -78.
Tylor Hall
www.firstfueling.com
On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:54 PM, W J R HAMILTON wrote:
For the Avgas Burners.
In brief, there are two common civil jet fuels, Jet A and Jet A-1, with
different freeze temperatures ( and a host of Mil. fuels, from JP-4 (aka Jet
B) though -5,-6.-7 -8)
The significance of -37C is that it is a 3 degree pad on the freeze
temperature of Jet A, so that is where the warning is set on most modern
aircraft. At high Mach numbers, there is quite a temperature ram rise, the
difference between OAT/SAT and "Total Air temperature" TAT. Very roughly TAT
is OAT plus ram rise.
If the fuel gets cold enough, you either have to increase Mach No. (ram
rise) or find a warner air mass, generally but not always by descending,
depending where the tropopause height happens to be, depending on latitude,
season and the particular weather pattern on the day.
The coldest air masses I have consistently found are over Russia/CIS states
in winter, even colder than the certification envelope of Boeing aircraft,
and significantly colder than any air masses over US/Canada, and colder than
the ICAO standard atmosphere/textbooks suggest will be found.
Such very cold temperatures bring with them a whole host of possibilities,
not limited to the fuel going solid.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton ( QANTAS Retired)
_____
At 00:18 2/02/2008, you wrote:
Put into terms a piston driver could understand, you kerosene burners
monitor enroute fuel temps as a flight parameter? -37c seems like it must be
quite common?
Higher Mach number because of lower altitude?
----- Original Message -----
From: W J R HAMILTON <mailto:wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
Folks,
Anybody interested can download the progressive reports from the UK at
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a
t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm
As a matter of interest, the air masses over Russia/CIS/Eastern Europe were
particularly cold that morning, aircraft were having to come as low as
FL250, and maintain higher than LRC Mach No. to maintain fuel temps. warmer
then -37C.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
_____
At 14:13 1/02/2008, you wrote:
I got this from a friend and thought you would like it.
Jim
Subject: Gastwick B-777 Info
I recently received this from a Retied DL Colleague. I do not know the
identity of the author. I have done some small bit of editing for my non
pilot friends.
Ken
Heard from a friend regarding the U.K. 777 crash. As I recall this aircraft
had Trent engines built by Rolls Royce.
******************************
*********************************
This is part of a message forwarded to me:
Had the pleasure of chatting with a member of the NTSB board last night at
dinner. Here is what he shared. Aircraft was at 600 ft agl (Above Ground
Level ) when the right engine (RPM) started to roll back to slightly above
flight
idle.
The First Officer was flying and auto throttles were engaged. The auto
throttles moved the throttles up to catch the deceleration in airspeed. The
right engine did not respond to the movement of the auto throttles. The
First Officer disengaged the auto throttles and manually moved both
throttles to max power as the Captain joined him and they both applied
emergency power. Within 8 seconds of the right engine rolling back to just
above flight idle the left engine did the exact same thing. The engines
never changed RPM from that point till ground contact. The F/O continued
flying and kept nibbling on the stick shaker to clear a hill just prior to
the impact point. Apparently the crew is being hailed as heroes for their
performance.
The two areas under investigation are fuel that was uplifted in China. Ice
in the fuel is a consideration and they are running chemical test at this
time. The other area is engine software. So far they can confirm that
everything from the throttles to the ECC's worked as it should. Its the info
from the ECC's to the fuel controller that is in question. This aircraft
had just had a software update 2 days earlier
href=" <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href=" <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
">http://forums.matronics.com
href=" <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
_____
Release Date: 2/3/2008 5:49 PM
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Dan;
Do you think this might help counter the girl playing golf?
http://www2.b3ta.com:80/host/creative/61345/1200695510/runway.gif
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Farmer
To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 10:13 AM
Subject: Commander-List: BA38-777
Mr. Bill
If you are saying at -40 jet A turns solid in the tanks I must
respectfully disagree. It would after several hours but it would take
along time, just like it will take a tank of water to freeze solid at
32F. It would have a tendancy to clog filters, I doubt that fuel lines
would freeze as you know fuel lines are quite large with lots of flow.
There is no provistion to select fuel heat on a 777 with Rolls engines
and I doubt it is automatically selected with out some form of notice to
the pilots. As you recall putting on fuel heat raises the temp of
engine oil significantly. In our training and manuals there is no
mention of fuel heat. The only mention of treatment is to find warmer
altitude or increase speed. Buy the way I had to research JA1 for
freeze point and it is -47C.
Someone on the site stated that he thought temp at high flight levels
would be much lower than -37C and that is correct. A pretty accurate
guide to Stand temp in the flight levels is to double the altitude and
sub 15, ie at FL350 35 X 2 = 70 - 15 = - 55C. Ram rise or increase
in skin temp at .80/.84 mach is in the area of 30 deg C.
As I mentioned in last post was in school and sim last week. Tried to
duplicate BA 38 with what we guessed to be weight and wind. It took
several attempts to get to the first foot of the runway with a very hard
touch down. They did a hell of a good job--especially with that gal
playing topless golf off to the side.
dan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
2/4/2008 10:10 AM
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: BA38-777 Fuel Question |
Is it possible that a Chinese distributor was playing fast and loose
with the fuel, and 'extending' it with something cheaper? Or does a
foreign carrier in China have complete control over the process so that
couldn't happen.... And could introduction of cheaper stock degrade
cold-weather performance enough to cause problems?
Damn near everything I've purchased made in China has been crap. The
situation where the some Chinese pharmaceutical companies were swapping
industrial chemicals in cough syrup come to mind. Is the fuel stock
protected, or are the carriers at the mercy of local suppliers?
(Bought a metal cut-off saw yesterday. Both Rigid and Dewalt now made in
China?)
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Farmer
To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 10:13 AM
Subject: Commander-List: BA38-777
Mr. Bill
If you are saying at -40 jet A turns solid in the tanks I must
respectfully disagree. It would after several hours but it would take
along time, just like it will take a tank of water to freeze solid at
32F. It would have a tendancy to clog filters, I doubt that fuel lines
would freeze as you know fuel lines are quite large with lots of flow.
There is no provistion to select fuel heat on a 777 with Rolls engines
and I doubt it is automatically selected with out some form of notice to
the pilots. As you recall putting on fuel heat raises the temp of
engine oil significantly. In our training and manuals there is no
mention of fuel heat. The only mention of treatment is to find warmer
altitude or increase speed. Buy the way I had to research JA1 for
freeze point and it is -47C.
Someone on the site stated that he thought temp at high flight levels
would be much lower than -37C and that is correct. A pretty accurate
guide to Stand temp in the flight levels is to double the altitude and
sub 15, ie at FL350 35 X 2 = 70 - 15 = - 55C. Ram rise or increase
in skin temp at .80/.84 mach is in the area of 30 deg C.
As I mentioned in last post was in school and sim last week. Tried to
duplicate BA 38 with what we guessed to be weight and wind. It took
several attempts to get to the first foot of the runway with a very hard
touch down. They did a hell of a good job--especially with that gal
playing topless golf off to the side.
dan
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | FW: Gastwick B-777 Info |
Don-
I think you are correct here. My recollection is that the MD80 and (very
occasionally) the 727 would develop thick frost on the wing surface as a
result of carrying very cold fuel down into a destination with a humid
atmosphere. This was not much of an issue for the 727, but required some
special procedure or other (that i do not recall) for the MD80.....
Robert S. Randazzo
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
Jim;
I vaguely remember that, but wasn't that ice on the outside of the wing
caused by super cooled fuel.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: JTAddington <mailto:jtaddington@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
My memory is not the best but if I remember right when the MD-80 came out
they had ice problems when the aircraft came down from altitude and landed
at a cold airport and than went back to altitude. I have forgotten how they
fixed the problem. I had moved on when we got the MD-80 so am not sure
exactly what the problem really was.
Jim Addington
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
I have had several experiences with Jet A and ice.
The first was in 1966. I worked the summer at Meigs Field, Chicago, (now
gone). A new Lear Jet had a dual engine flame out. The got a partial power
back by the time they came across the field. As the tried to climb out, the
flamed out a second time and put it down in Lake Michigan. It floated since
it has a clam shell door. It floated two days unit it was lifted out and
put on a truck to go to Midway.
Lear Jet and most small Jet including turbo props Including TC, need Prist
as an anti ice that keep the water in solution in the jet fuel.
The other experience was in the mid 1990's during a test of some Jet A
pumping one winter day. It was well below 0 the night before and the fuel
and tanks was cold soaked. The Jet A fuel we used had lost of water in it.
We used the fuel to flush out the new equipment and test the operation of
Jet A bulk pumping equipment to fill refueler trucks.
The system slowed down and stopped flowing. We shut down and started taking
things apart. We removed the line strainer on Jet Single point nozzle and
found the screen full of ice. It was a thin film of ice the completely
stopped the 200 GPM flow.
In looking at the fuel in a clear jar, we could see ice in the form of what
looked like snow flakes suspended in the Jet A.
The water was freezing into a solid and did not settle out. The water was
so small it floated in the water. When it got cold enough, it froze.
Dan, I was under the impression that most large airliners did not need
Prist, because they have fuel heaters to deal with the low temperatures at
altitude?
We shipped some Jet A filter/separators to Antarctica. They use a special
Jet fuel that is rated down to -78.
Tylor Hall
www.firstfueling.com
On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:54 PM, W J R HAMILTON wrote:
For the Avgas Burners.
In brief, there are two common civil jet fuels, Jet A and Jet A-1, with
different freeze temperatures ( and a host of Mil. fuels, from JP-4 (aka Jet
B) though -5,-6.-7 -8)
The significance of -37C is that it is a 3 degree pad on the freeze
temperature of Jet A, so that is where the warning is set on most modern
aircraft. At high Mach numbers, there is quite a temperature ram rise, the
difference between OAT/SAT and "Total Air temperature" TAT. Very roughly TAT
is OAT plus ram rise.
If the fuel gets cold enough, you either have to increase Mach No. (ram
rise) or find a warner air mass, generally but not always by descending,
depending where the tropopause height happens to be, depending on latitude,
season and the particular weather pattern on the day.
The coldest air masses I have consistently found are over Russia/CIS states
in winter, even colder than the certification envelope of Boeing aircraft,
and significantly colder than any air masses over US/Canada, and colder than
the ICAO standard atmosphere/textbooks suggest will be found.
Such very cold temperatures bring with them a whole host of possibilities,
not limited to the fuel going solid.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton ( QANTAS Retired)
_____
At 00:18 2/02/2008, you wrote:
Put into terms a piston driver could understand, you kerosene burners
monitor enroute fuel temps as a flight parameter? -37c seems like it must be
quite common?
Higher Mach number because of lower altitude?
----- Original Message -----
From: W J R HAMILTON <mailto:wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info
Folks,
Anybody interested can download the progressive reports from the UK at
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a
t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm
As a matter of interest, the air masses over Russia/CIS/Eastern Europe were
particularly cold that morning, aircraft were having to come as low as
FL250, and maintain higher than LRC Mach No. to maintain fuel temps. warmer
then -37C.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
_____
At 14:13 1/02/2008, you wrote:
I got this from a friend and thought you would like it.
Jim
Subject: Gastwick B-777 Info
I recently received this from a Retied DL Colleague. I do not know the
identity of the author. I have done some small bit of editing for my non
pilot friends.
Ken
Heard from a friend regarding the U.K. 777 crash. As I recall this aircraft
had Trent engines built by Rolls Royce.
******************************
*********************************
This is part of a message forwarded to me:
Had the pleasure of chatting with a member of the NTSB board last night at
dinner. Here is what he shared. Aircraft was at 600 ft agl (Above Ground
Level ) when the right engine (RPM) started to roll back to slightly above
flight
idle.
The First Officer was flying and auto throttles were engaged. The auto
throttles moved the throttles up to catch the deceleration in airspeed. The
right engine did not respond to the movement of the auto throttles. The
First Officer disengaged the auto throttles and manually moved both
throttles to max power as the Captain joined him and they both applied
emergency power. Within 8 seconds of the right engine rolling back to just
above flight idle the left engine did the exact same thing. The engines
never changed RPM from that point till ground contact. The F/O continued
flying and kept nibbling on the stick shaker to clear a hill just prior to
the impact point. Apparently the crew is being hailed as heroes for their
performance.
The two areas under investigation are fuel that was uplifted in China. Ice
in the fuel is a consideration and they are running chemical test at this
time. The other area is engine software. So far they can confirm that
everything from the throttles to the ECC's worked as it should. Its the info
from the ECC's to the fuel controller that is in question. This aircraft
had just had a software update 2 days earlier
href=" <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href=" <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
">http://forums.matronics.com
href=" <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
_____
Release Date: 2/3/2008 5:49 PM
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|