---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/04/08: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:15 AM - BA38-777 (Dan Farmer) 2. 07:22 AM - Re: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info (JTAddington) 3. 11:51 AM - Re: BA38-777 (Don) 4. 01:07 PM - Re: BA38-777 Fuel Question (Steve W) 5. 01:34 PM - Re: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info (Robert S. Randazzo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:58 AM PST US From: Dan Farmer Subject: Commander-List: BA38-777 Mr. Bill If you are saying at -40 jet A turns solid in the tanks I must respectfully disagree. It would after several hours but it would take along time, just like it will take a tank of water to freeze solid at 32F. It would have a tendancy to clog filters, I doubt that fuel lines would freeze as you know fuel lines are quite large with lots of flow. There is no provistion to select fuel heat on a 777 with Rolls engines and I doubt it is automatically selected with out some form of notice to the pilots. As you recall putting on fuel heat raises the temp of engine oil significantly. In our training and manuals there is no mention of fuel heat. The only mention of treatment is to find warmer altitude or increase speed. Buy the way I had to research JA1 for freeze point and it is -47C. Someone on the site stated that he thought temp at high flight levels would be much lower than -37C and that is correct. A pretty accurate guide to Stand temp in the flight levels is to double the altitude and sub 15, ie at FL350 35 X 2 = 70 - 15 = - 55C. Ram rise or increase in skin temp at .80/.84 mach is in the area of 30 deg C. As I mentioned in last post was in school and sim last week. Tried to duplicate BA 38 with what we guessed to be weight and wind. It took several attempts to get to the first foot of the runway with a very hard touch down. They did a hell of a good job--especially with that gal playing topless golf off to the side. dan --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:13 AM PST US From: "JTAddington" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info I don't remember it could have been and I think you are right. It was a long time ago and I was either on the B-727 or the L-1011 by then so did not pay a lot of attention to it since it did not apply to me. Jim _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 11:09 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Jim; I vaguely remember that, but wasn't that ice on the outside of the wing caused by super cooled fuel. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: JTAddington Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 3:50 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info My memory is not the best but if I remember right when the MD-80 came out they had ice problems when the aircraft came down from altitude and landed at a cold airport and than went back to altitude. I have forgotten how they fixed the problem. I had moved on when we got the MD-80 so am not sure exactly what the problem really was. Jim Addington _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info I have had several experiences with Jet A and ice. The first was in 1966. I worked the summer at Meigs Field, Chicago, (now gone). A new Lear Jet had a dual engine flame out. The got a partial power back by the time they came across the field. As the tried to climb out, the flamed out a second time and put it down in Lake Michigan. It floated since it has a clam shell door. It floated two days unit it was lifted out and put on a truck to go to Midway. Lear Jet and most small Jet including turbo props Including TC, need Prist as an anti ice that keep the water in solution in the jet fuel. The other experience was in the mid 1990's during a test of some Jet A pumping one winter day. It was well below 0 the night before and the fuel and tanks was cold soaked. The Jet A fuel we used had lost of water in it. We used the fuel to flush out the new equipment and test the operation of Jet A bulk pumping equipment to fill refueler trucks. The system slowed down and stopped flowing. We shut down and started taking things apart. We removed the line strainer on Jet Single point nozzle and found the screen full of ice. It was a thin film of ice the completely stopped the 200 GPM flow. In looking at the fuel in a clear jar, we could see ice in the form of what looked like snow flakes suspended in the Jet A. The water was freezing into a solid and did not settle out. The water was so small it floated in the water. When it got cold enough, it froze. Dan, I was under the impression that most large airliners did not need Prist, because they have fuel heaters to deal with the low temperatures at altitude? We shipped some Jet A filter/separators to Antarctica. They use a special Jet fuel that is rated down to -78. Tylor Hall www.firstfueling.com On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:54 PM, W J R HAMILTON wrote: For the Avgas Burners. In brief, there are two common civil jet fuels, Jet A and Jet A-1, with different freeze temperatures ( and a host of Mil. fuels, from JP-4 (aka Jet B) though -5,-6.-7 -8) The significance of -37C is that it is a 3 degree pad on the freeze temperature of Jet A, so that is where the warning is set on most modern aircraft. At high Mach numbers, there is quite a temperature ram rise, the difference between OAT/SAT and "Total Air temperature" TAT. Very roughly TAT is OAT plus ram rise. If the fuel gets cold enough, you either have to increase Mach No. (ram rise) or find a warner air mass, generally but not always by descending, depending where the tropopause height happens to be, depending on latitude, season and the particular weather pattern on the day. The coldest air masses I have consistently found are over Russia/CIS states in winter, even colder than the certification envelope of Boeing aircraft, and significantly colder than any air masses over US/Canada, and colder than the ICAO standard atmosphere/textbooks suggest will be found. Such very cold temperatures bring with them a whole host of possibilities, not limited to the fuel going solid. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ( QANTAS Retired) _____ At 00:18 2/02/2008, you wrote: Put into terms a piston driver could understand, you kerosene burners monitor enroute fuel temps as a flight parameter? -37c seems like it must be quite common? Higher Mach number because of lower altitude? ----- Original Message ----- From: W J R HAMILTON Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Folks, Anybody interested can download the progressive reports from the UK at http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm As a matter of interest, the air masses over Russia/CIS/Eastern Europe were particularly cold that morning, aircraft were having to come as low as FL250, and maintain higher than LRC Mach No. to maintain fuel temps. warmer then -37C. Cheers, Bill Hamilton _____ At 14:13 1/02/2008, you wrote: I got this from a friend and thought you would like it. Jim Subject: Gastwick B-777 Info I recently received this from a Retied DL Colleague. I do not know the identity of the author. I have done some small bit of editing for my non pilot friends. Ken Heard from a friend regarding the U.K. 777 crash. As I recall this aircraft had Trent engines built by Rolls Royce. ****************************** ********************************* This is part of a message forwarded to me: Had the pleasure of chatting with a member of the NTSB board last night at dinner. Here is what he shared. Aircraft was at 600 ft agl (Above Ground Level ) when the right engine (RPM) started to roll back to slightly above flight idle. The First Officer was flying and auto throttles were engaged. The auto throttles moved the throttles up to catch the deceleration in airspeed. The right engine did not respond to the movement of the auto throttles. The First Officer disengaged the auto throttles and manually moved both throttles to max power as the Captain joined him and they both applied emergency power. Within 8 seconds of the right engine rolling back to just above flight idle the left engine did the exact same thing. The engines never changed RPM from that point till ground contact. The F/O continued flying and kept nibbling on the stick shaker to clear a hill just prior to the impact point. Apparently the crew is being hailed as heroes for their performance. The two areas under investigation are fuel that was uplifted in China. Ice in the fuel is a consideration and they are running chemical test at this time. The other area is engine software. So far they can confirm that everything from the throttles to the ECC's worked as it should. Its the info from the ECC's to the fuel controller that is in question. This aircraft had just had a software update 2 days earlier href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href=" http://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ Release Date: 2/3/2008 5:49 PM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:39 AM PST US From: "Don" Subject: Re: Commander-List: BA38-777 Dan; Do you think this might help counter the girl playing golf? http://www2.b3ta.com:80/host/creative/61345/1200695510/runway.gif Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: Commander-List: BA38-777 Mr. Bill If you are saying at -40 jet A turns solid in the tanks I must respectfully disagree. It would after several hours but it would take along time, just like it will take a tank of water to freeze solid at 32F. It would have a tendancy to clog filters, I doubt that fuel lines would freeze as you know fuel lines are quite large with lots of flow. There is no provistion to select fuel heat on a 777 with Rolls engines and I doubt it is automatically selected with out some form of notice to the pilots. As you recall putting on fuel heat raises the temp of engine oil significantly. In our training and manuals there is no mention of fuel heat. The only mention of treatment is to find warmer altitude or increase speed. Buy the way I had to research JA1 for freeze point and it is -47C. Someone on the site stated that he thought temp at high flight levels would be much lower than -37C and that is correct. A pretty accurate guide to Stand temp in the flight levels is to double the altitude and sub 15, ie at FL350 35 X 2 = 70 - 15 = - 55C. Ram rise or increase in skin temp at .80/.84 mach is in the area of 30 deg C. As I mentioned in last post was in school and sim last week. Tried to duplicate BA 38 with what we guessed to be weight and wind. It took several attempts to get to the first foot of the runway with a very hard touch down. They did a hell of a good job--especially with that gal playing topless golf off to the side. dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 2/4/2008 10:10 AM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:33 PM PST US From: "Steve W" Subject: Re: Commander-List: BA38-777 Fuel Question Is it possible that a Chinese distributor was playing fast and loose with the fuel, and 'extending' it with something cheaper? Or does a foreign carrier in China have complete control over the process so that couldn't happen.... And could introduction of cheaper stock degrade cold-weather performance enough to cause problems? Damn near everything I've purchased made in China has been crap. The situation where the some Chinese pharmaceutical companies were swapping industrial chemicals in cough syrup come to mind. Is the fuel stock protected, or are the carriers at the mercy of local suppliers? (Bought a metal cut-off saw yesterday. Both Rigid and Dewalt now made in China?) Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: Commander-List: BA38-777 Mr. Bill If you are saying at -40 jet A turns solid in the tanks I must respectfully disagree. It would after several hours but it would take along time, just like it will take a tank of water to freeze solid at 32F. It would have a tendancy to clog filters, I doubt that fuel lines would freeze as you know fuel lines are quite large with lots of flow. There is no provistion to select fuel heat on a 777 with Rolls engines and I doubt it is automatically selected with out some form of notice to the pilots. As you recall putting on fuel heat raises the temp of engine oil significantly. In our training and manuals there is no mention of fuel heat. The only mention of treatment is to find warmer altitude or increase speed. Buy the way I had to research JA1 for freeze point and it is -47C. Someone on the site stated that he thought temp at high flight levels would be much lower than -37C and that is correct. A pretty accurate guide to Stand temp in the flight levels is to double the altitude and sub 15, ie at FL350 35 X 2 = 70 - 15 = - 55C. Ram rise or increase in skin temp at .80/.84 mach is in the area of 30 deg C. As I mentioned in last post was in school and sim last week. Tried to duplicate BA 38 with what we guessed to be weight and wind. It took several attempts to get to the first foot of the runway with a very hard touch down. They did a hell of a good job--especially with that gal playing topless golf off to the side. dan ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:20 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Don- I think you are correct here. My recollection is that the MD80 and (very occasionally) the 727 would develop thick frost on the wing surface as a result of carrying very cold fuel down into a destination with a humid atmosphere. This was not much of an issue for the 727, but required some special procedure or other (that i do not recall) for the MD80..... Robert S. Randazzo _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Jim; I vaguely remember that, but wasn't that ice on the outside of the wing caused by super cooled fuel. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: JTAddington Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 3:50 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info My memory is not the best but if I remember right when the MD-80 came out they had ice problems when the aircraft came down from altitude and landed at a cold airport and than went back to altitude. I have forgotten how they fixed the problem. I had moved on when we got the MD-80 so am not sure exactly what the problem really was. Jim Addington _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info I have had several experiences with Jet A and ice. The first was in 1966. I worked the summer at Meigs Field, Chicago, (now gone). A new Lear Jet had a dual engine flame out. The got a partial power back by the time they came across the field. As the tried to climb out, the flamed out a second time and put it down in Lake Michigan. It floated since it has a clam shell door. It floated two days unit it was lifted out and put on a truck to go to Midway. Lear Jet and most small Jet including turbo props Including TC, need Prist as an anti ice that keep the water in solution in the jet fuel. The other experience was in the mid 1990's during a test of some Jet A pumping one winter day. It was well below 0 the night before and the fuel and tanks was cold soaked. The Jet A fuel we used had lost of water in it. We used the fuel to flush out the new equipment and test the operation of Jet A bulk pumping equipment to fill refueler trucks. The system slowed down and stopped flowing. We shut down and started taking things apart. We removed the line strainer on Jet Single point nozzle and found the screen full of ice. It was a thin film of ice the completely stopped the 200 GPM flow. In looking at the fuel in a clear jar, we could see ice in the form of what looked like snow flakes suspended in the Jet A. The water was freezing into a solid and did not settle out. The water was so small it floated in the water. When it got cold enough, it froze. Dan, I was under the impression that most large airliners did not need Prist, because they have fuel heaters to deal with the low temperatures at altitude? We shipped some Jet A filter/separators to Antarctica. They use a special Jet fuel that is rated down to -78. Tylor Hall www.firstfueling.com On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:54 PM, W J R HAMILTON wrote: For the Avgas Burners. In brief, there are two common civil jet fuels, Jet A and Jet A-1, with different freeze temperatures ( and a host of Mil. fuels, from JP-4 (aka Jet B) though -5,-6.-7 -8) The significance of -37C is that it is a 3 degree pad on the freeze temperature of Jet A, so that is where the warning is set on most modern aircraft. At high Mach numbers, there is quite a temperature ram rise, the difference between OAT/SAT and "Total Air temperature" TAT. Very roughly TAT is OAT plus ram rise. If the fuel gets cold enough, you either have to increase Mach No. (ram rise) or find a warner air mass, generally but not always by descending, depending where the tropopause height happens to be, depending on latitude, season and the particular weather pattern on the day. The coldest air masses I have consistently found are over Russia/CIS states in winter, even colder than the certification envelope of Boeing aircraft, and significantly colder than any air masses over US/Canada, and colder than the ICAO standard atmosphere/textbooks suggest will be found. Such very cold temperatures bring with them a whole host of possibilities, not limited to the fuel going solid. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ( QANTAS Retired) _____ At 00:18 2/02/2008, you wrote: Put into terms a piston driver could understand, you kerosene burners monitor enroute fuel temps as a flight parameter? -37c seems like it must be quite common? Higher Mach number because of lower altitude? ----- Original Message ----- From: W J R HAMILTON Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Gastwick B-777 Info Folks, Anybody interested can download the progressive reports from the UK at http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm As a matter of interest, the air masses over Russia/CIS/Eastern Europe were particularly cold that morning, aircraft were having to come as low as FL250, and maintain higher than LRC Mach No. to maintain fuel temps. warmer then -37C. Cheers, Bill Hamilton _____ At 14:13 1/02/2008, you wrote: I got this from a friend and thought you would like it. Jim Subject: Gastwick B-777 Info I recently received this from a Retied DL Colleague. I do not know the identity of the author. I have done some small bit of editing for my non pilot friends. Ken Heard from a friend regarding the U.K. 777 crash. As I recall this aircraft had Trent engines built by Rolls Royce. ****************************** ********************************* This is part of a message forwarded to me: Had the pleasure of chatting with a member of the NTSB board last night at dinner. Here is what he shared. Aircraft was at 600 ft agl (Above Ground Level ) when the right engine (RPM) started to roll back to slightly above flight idle. The First Officer was flying and auto throttles were engaged. The auto throttles moved the throttles up to catch the deceleration in airspeed. The right engine did not respond to the movement of the auto throttles. The First Officer disengaged the auto throttles and manually moved both throttles to max power as the Captain joined him and they both applied emergency power. Within 8 seconds of the right engine rolling back to just above flight idle the left engine did the exact same thing. The engines never changed RPM from that point till ground contact. The F/O continued flying and kept nibbling on the stick shaker to clear a hill just prior to the impact point. Apparently the crew is being hailed as heroes for their performance. The two areas under investigation are fuel that was uplifted in China. Ice in the fuel is a consideration and they are running chemical test at this time. The other area is engine software. So far they can confirm that everything from the throttles to the ECC's worked as it should. Its the info from the ECC's to the fuel controller that is in question. This aircraft had just had a software update 2 days earlier href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href=" http://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ Release Date: 2/3/2008 5:49 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.