Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:05 AM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling (Robert Feldtman)
2. 12:06 PM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling ()
3. 12:25 PM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
4. 03:17 PM - Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Keith S. Gordon)
5. 03:38 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
6. 03:46 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Tom Fisher)
7. 04:01 PM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling (nico css)
8. 04:19 PM - Re: Strap yourself in. (nico css)
9. 04:49 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Donnie Rose)
10. 05:11 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (John Vormbaum)
11. 05:40 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (nico css)
12. 06:24 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (BobsV35B@aol.com)
13. 06:59 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Stan)
14. 07:00 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (JTAddington)
15. 07:17 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Robert S. Randazzo)
16. 09:01 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (John Vormbaum)
17. 10:43 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (nico css)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Electric fuel pump cycling |
I know this is an entirely dirrent string. but--
the commander is wonderful it has three hydraulic pumps one elec and two
engine. if all three fail and or the fluid pumps out (shouldn't if you
follow directions as noted wrt cir brker)
then you CAN get all the gear down - first with the N2 blow down bottle
assuming it is topped off. if it is too low, just slow down to right above
stall, pop the nose up and the gravity will pull down the gear as you put
the gear handle down. the bungee cords on the mainlys will lock them over
TDC and they will latch.. and the nose should lock too. three green will
confirm it. a nicely pollished spinner on the props will allow you to look
at the nose gear to see it is down. So I don't plan to have a nose gear
collapse in my 500B!
Now - reverse steering with a blown o ring in the nose gear steering is
another topic!
bobf
500B
On 4/5/08, dfalik@sbcglobal.net <dfalik@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Gary,
>
>
> I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 =BD years. It is
> the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600
> lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the
> engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running an
d
> the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic flui
d
> or both pumps are not working.
>
>
> It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the
> same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel the
> total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that noticeabl
e.
>
>
> I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we
> will all learn from it.
>
>
> Don
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary Giesler
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
>
> Question
>
> Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that
> continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure needl
e
> is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the brake
s
> the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the bra
kes
> are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking rela
y
> sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have owned
> 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ?
>
>
> Gary
>
500RX--1974
> 500S
> ------------------------------
>
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Message 2
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Subject: | Electric fuel pump cycling |
All,
Just to share:
In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing
to remember before landing. With the catastrophic loss of fluid the
landings again were a non issue. The first time the line was in the
baggage area with the unpleasant result obvious. The second time it was
fitting between two sections of line but this time it was in a wing root
with the fluid running down the side of the fuselage.
Recently, within the last 3 months, I had another issue where after
start up the hydraulic pressure didn't register above 600 and I assumed
it was failure of the engine driven pumps (again). It turned out to be
the accumulator/regulator. Apparently something in the regulator wears
and needs to be overhauled. There is only one place in the country that
does it and the overhauled part is sold through commander service
centers. It is a $4900.00 item with a $4000.00 core charge to assure
them that your part is able to be overhauled. Replacing the part solved
the problem and luckily my core charge was returned to me a month or so
later.
Again, this is just to share experiences and I am always open to other
more knowledgeable comments.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Giesler
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
<gjgiesler@hotmail.com>
Don.
When the engines are driving their pumps the psi is around 1000.
And the needle is not twitching , I cant tell if the clicking relay
sound is there or not because of the noise. I will experiment with
finding the flap " OFF" detent......didn't know there was one.
Thanks
Gary 500RX
________________________________
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:51:19 -0400
>
>
> Gary,
>
>
>
> I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 years. It
is the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the
600 lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time,
the engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is
running and the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of
hydraulic fluid or both pumps are not working.
>
>
>
> It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had
the same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to
feel the total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that
noticeable.
>
>
>
> I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an
we will all learn from it.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Giesler
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
>
>
> Question
>
> Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking
that continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure
needle is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on
the brakes the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline.
After the brakes are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and
the clicking relay sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this
untill now, I have owned 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ?
>
>
Gary
>
500RX--1974 500S
>
> ________________________________
>
> Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live
Messenger. Get started!
_________________________________________________________________
Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic.
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Message 3
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Subject: | Electric fuel pump cycling |
Thanks for the excellent discussion regarding hydraulic systems. That's
what makes this forum so valuable and helpful to Commander owners. I am
getting all new hydraulic hoses with the new engines in my 680F. I have
added the "pull the hydraulic pump switch" to my climb-out check list, and
of course try to remember to push it back in prior to landing. Thanks again
for the great comments.
Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dfalik@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
All,
Just to share:
In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing
to remember before landing. With the catastrophic loss of fluid the
landings again were a non issue. The first time the line was in the
baggage area with the unpleasant result obvious. The second time it was
fitting between two sections of line but this time it was in a wing root
with the fluid running down the side of the fuselage.
Recently, within the last 3 months, I had another issue where after
start up the hydraulic pressure didn't register above 600 and I assumed
it was failure of the engine driven pumps (again). It turned out to be
the accumulator/regulator. Apparently something in the regulator wears
and needs to be overhauled. There is only one place in the country that
does it and the overhauled part is sold through commander service
centers. It is a $4900.00 item with a $4000.00 core charge to assure
them that your part is able to be overhauled. Replacing the part solved
the problem and luckily my core charge was returned to me a month or so
later.
Again, this is just to share experiences and I am always open to other
more knowledgeable comments.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Giesler
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
<gjgiesler@hotmail.com>
Don.
When the engines are driving their pumps the psi is around 1000.
And the needle is not twitching , I cant tell if the clicking relay
sound is there or not because of the noise. I will experiment with
finding the flap " OFF" detent......didn't know there was one.
Thanks
Gary 500RX
________________________________
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:51:19 -0400
>
>
> Gary,
>
>
>
> I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 years. It
is the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the
600 lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time,
the engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is
running and the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of
hydraulic fluid or both pumps are not working.
>
>
>
> It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had
the same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to
feel the total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that
noticeable.
>
>
>
> I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an
we will all learn from it.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Giesler
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
>
>
> Question
>
> Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking
that continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure
needle is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on
the brakes the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline.
After the brakes are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and
the clicking relay sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this
untill now, I have owned 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ?
>
>
Gary
>
500RX--1974 500S
>
> ________________________________
>
> Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live
Messenger. Get started!
_________________________________________________________________
Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic.
http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51
N1653A
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Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
As the French say, "Each to his own fish."? At least I've been told they say that.
I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement with the aux
hydraulic c/b.?
Gear up, pull the c/b.?
Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic c/b set.
I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.? There is
a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets.
My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a breaker switch.?
I really like that idea because you can install the switch so that up
is off.?? (If this were not such a public place, I'd suggest moving this switch
next to the gear handle.)
In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / switch up
= aux hydraulic pump disabled.
Gear handle down / switch down (on) =? aux pump enabled.
With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to touchdown,
possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at that moment.
This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds around but
with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm convinced it's the
way to go.?
I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures and the fact that I disable
the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out of the 3 times.
But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
All,
Just to share:
In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing
to remember before landing.
Message 5
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|
Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Gear up, breaker out / gear down, breaker in. I like that. Thanks.
RD
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:15 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told they say
that.
I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement with the
aux hydraulic c/b.
Gear up, pull the c/b.
Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic c/b set.
I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. There
is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets.
My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a
breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the switch
so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd suggest
moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /
switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to
touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at that
moment.
This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds around
but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm convinced
it's the way to go.
I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact that I
disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out of the 3
times.
But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
All,
Just to share:
In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing
to remember before landing.
_____
Get the MapQuest <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>
Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More!
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Let's see now....gear out and ahhh cb up?
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Gear up, breaker out / gear down, breaker in. I like that. Thanks.
RD
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:15 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told
they say that.
I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement
with the aux hydraulic c/b.
Gear up, pull the c/b.
Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic
c/b set.
I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.
There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of
resets.
My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a
breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the
switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd
suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /
switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to
touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at
that moment.
This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds
around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm
convinced it's the way to go.
I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact
that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out
of the 3 times.
But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
All,
Just to share:
In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing
to remember before landing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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|
Subject: | Electric fuel pump cycling |
I wrote earlier about a total hydraulic loss in my straight 500 a number
of
years ago and slowing down to just above stall-speed popped the gear
down
and locked without any hesitation. After an uneventful landing (I
believe I
feathered both engines on short final just in case), without hydraulics,
the
plane stayed on the center line and as it slowed down it slowly castered
off
the runway into the rough where it came to a halt. The fire truck picked
me
up and I had the FBO tow it back to the shop. It wasn't a non-event but
the
in-flight hydraulic failure was more of a heart-stopper than the
landing.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Feldtman
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
I know this is an entirely dirrent string. but--
the commander is wonderful it has three hydraulic pumps one elec and two
engine. if all three fail and or the fluid pumps out (shouldn't if you
follow directions as noted wrt cir brker)
then you CAN get all the gear down - first with the N2 blow down bottle
assuming it is topped off. if it is too low, just slow down to right
above
stall, pop the nose up and the gravity will pull down the gear as you
put
the gear handle down. the bungee cords on the mainlys will lock them
over
TDC and they will latch.. and the nose should lock too. three green will
confirm it. a nicely pollished spinner on the props will allow you to
look
at the nose gear to see it is down. So I don't plan to have a nose gear
collapse in my 500B!
Now - reverse steering with a blown o ring in the nose gear steering is
another topic!
bobf
500B
On 4/5/08, dfalik@sbcglobal.net <dfalik@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Gary,
I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 =BD years. It
is the
electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600
lbs. in
the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the engine
driven
pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running and the gauge
only
shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic fluid or both
pumps
are not working.
It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the
same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel
the
total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that
noticeable.
I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we
will
all learn from it.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Giesler
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
Question
Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that
continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure
needle
is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the
brakes
the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the
brakes
are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking
relay
sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have
owned
500RX for a year, or is this a problem ?
Gary
500RX--1974 500S
_____
Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
Get
started!
<http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TA
GLM_W
L_Refresh_messenger_video_042008>
- The Commander-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
--> http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
- List Contribution Web Site -
Thank you for your generous support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
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Subject: | RE: Strap yourself in. |
Only in the beginning. After a while of practice, one gets the knack of it
and learns to fly straight and level. :-D
Is this the way you fly??? =-O
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-Japanese-Aerobatics.wm
v
Regards . . .
art la combe
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux pump to pump
everything above the sump overboard.
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
----- Original Message ----
From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told they say that.
I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement with the aux
hydraulic c/b.
Gear up, pull the c/b.
Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic c/b set.
I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. There is
a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets.
My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a breaker switch.
I really like that idea because you can install the switch so that up
is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd suggest moving this switch
next to the gear handle.)
In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / switch up
= aux hydraulic pump disabled.
Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to touchdown,
possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at that moment.
This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds around but
with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm convinced it's the
way to go.
I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact that I disable
the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out of the 3 times.
But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
All,
Just to share:
In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing
to remember before landing.
Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More!
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total
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Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the
hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven
pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the
reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the
aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so
in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux
pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture.
Again....ask me how I know :-).
With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot
runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the
nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost
elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and
the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear
door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I
didn't block the runway!
After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and
towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty.
I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or
after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some
directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I
would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally
ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are
quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick
with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick
the airframe is with two feathered!
/J
Donnie Rose wrote:
> WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux
> pump to pump everything above the sump overboard.
>
>
> *Donnie Rose
> 205/492-8444*
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
>
> *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told
> they say that.
>
> I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement
> with the aux hydraulic c/b.
>
> Gear up, pull the c/b.
>
> Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic
> c/b set.
>
> I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.
> There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets.
>
> My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a
> breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the
> switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd
> suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
>
> In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /
> switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
>
> Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
>
> With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to
> touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at
> that moment.
>
> This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds
> around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern,
> I'm convinced it's the way to go.
>
> I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact
> that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2
> out of the 3 times.
>
> But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
> *
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
>
>
> All,
>
>
> Just to share:
>
>
> In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
>
> Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
>
> airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
>
> fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
>
> hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing
>
> to remember before landing.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get the MapQuest Toolbar
> <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps,
> Traffic, Directions & More!
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.
N.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the
hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps
IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir.
That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use
for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly
functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump
EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture.
Again....ask me how I know :-).
With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot
runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose
off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator
authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear
gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage
skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the
runway!
After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed
it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty.
I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after
landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional
control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able
to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the
airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes
on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I
think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two
feathered!
/J
Donnie Rose wrote:
> WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux
> pump to pump everything above the sump overboard.
>
>
> *Donnie Rose
> 205/492-8444*
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
>
> *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told
> they say that.
>
> I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement
> with the aux hydraulic c/b.
>
> Gear up, pull the c/b.
>
> Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic
> c/b set.
>
> I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.
> There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets.
>
> My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a
> breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the
> switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd
> suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
>
> In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /
> switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
>
> Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
>
> With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to
> touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at
> that moment.
>
> This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds
> around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern,
> I'm convinced it's the way to go.
>
> I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact
> that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2
> out of the 3 times.
>
> But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
> *
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
> --> <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>>
>
>
> All,
>
>
> Just to share:
>
>
> In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
>
> Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
>
> airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the
> remaining
>
> fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
>
> hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another
> thing
>
> to remember before landing.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Get the MapQuest Toolbar
> <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps,
> Traffic, Directions & More!
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Good Evening Gentlemen,
Just a comment from a non current Commander type.
It is pretty basic, but do you teach the use of adverse aileron drag to aid
in directional control on the ground?
If you are getting down to low speed and the nose starts to swing to the
left, full left aileron will help it come back toward the center. Those ailerons
are pretty effective even with the nose on the ground. The drag of a down
aileron will help even at very low speeds.
It is certainly not intuitive to use left aileron when the nose is swinging
to the left, but it will help bring it back to the right!
And, of course, the same principle works if the nose is heading to the right
when you do not want it to.
Right aileron will bring the nose to the left.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/6/2008 7:41:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.
N.
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 13
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|
Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious
exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit
with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way,
although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd
get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane
stays upright without tilting to either side.
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.
N.
Message 14
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Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
I might as well put my two cents in. I had a friend, which is the best
electronics man I have ever seen, put a switch in the aux pump system with a
blue light that would come on any time the pump is running. He also put in a
red light to tell me the pump switch was off. This was a long time ago and
we got it by the FAA with a field approval. My first Hydraulic failure the
blue light was what told me I had a problem. It took four failures before we
finally found it was the accumulator. I had a mechanic tell me that I should
check the pressure every so often to see if it was bumping the limit. If it
is I should pump the brakes to bring it back down to the 1000 PSI or the
hydraulic fluid will over heat which is what happened to me. We thought it
was pump seals and hoses. I had one more failure when one of the new hoses
failed. I had brakes and steering on all of them.
Jim A
N444BD
500A
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.
N.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the
hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps
IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir.
That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use
for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly
functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump
EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture.
Again....ask me how I know :-).
With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot
runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose
off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator
authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear
gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage
skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the
runway!
After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed
it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty.
I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after
landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional
control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able
to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the
airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes
on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I
think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two
feathered!
/J
Donnie Rose wrote:
> WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux
> pump to pump everything above the sump overboard.
>
>
> *Donnie Rose
> 205/492-8444*
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
>
> *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told
> they say that.
>
> I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement
> with the aux hydraulic c/b.
>
> Gear up, pull the c/b.
>
> Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic
> c/b set.
>
> I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.
> There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets.
>
> My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a
> breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the
> switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd
> suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
>
> In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /
> switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
>
> Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
>
> With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to
> touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at
> that moment.
>
> This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds
> around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern,
> I'm convinced it's the way to go.
>
> I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact
> that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2
> out of the 3 times.
>
> But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
> *
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
> --> <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>>
>
>
> All,
>
>
> Just to share:
>
>
> In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
>
> Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
>
> airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the
> remaining
>
> fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real
>
> hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another
> thing
>
> to remember before landing.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Get the MapQuest Toolbar
> <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps,
> Traffic, Directions & More!
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 15
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Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Commanders-
I hope I never regret saying this, but: If I am making an emergency landing
with the possibility of gear collapse- I'm willing to accept the probability
of consequential damage that results from making the safest approach and
landing possible with the remaining parts of the airplane.
After all- this is what I pay the insurer for...
<knocking on wood>
Robert S. Randazzo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious
exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit
with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way,
although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd
get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane
stays upright without tilting to either side.
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.
N.
__________ NOD32 3005 (20080406) Information __________
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Stan,
I can't speak about the turbine airplanes, especially the 690 series and
everything that came after, but I'm sure that all the piston airplanes
will have prop clearance if they land on the belly. There are plenty of
piston models out there with damage history that mentions "gear-up
landing" in the logbooks without mentioning "prop strike". I'm aware of
one airplane that has more than one gear-up landing in the books with no
mention of a teardown or even IRAN.
/John
Stan wrote:
>
> As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious
> exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit
> with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way,
> although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd
> get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane
> stays upright without tilting to either side.
>
> Stan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
>
>
> I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
> good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
> the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
> whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
> directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
> and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
> side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
> would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.
> N.
>
>
>
Message 17
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Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at
about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would
have changed the outcome.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Good Evening Gentlemen,
Just a comment from a non current Commander type.
It is pretty basic, but do you teach the use of adverse aileron drag to aid
in directional control on the ground?
If you are getting down to low speed and the nose starts to swing to the
left, full left aileron will help it come back toward the center. Those
ailerons are pretty effective even with the nose on the ground. The drag of
a down aileron will help even at very low speeds.
It is certainly not intuitive to use left aileron when the nose is swinging
to the left, but it will help bring it back to the right!
And, of course, the same principle works if the nose is heading to the right
when you do not want it to.
Right aileron will bring the nose to the left.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/6/2008 7:41:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.
N.
_____
<http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016>
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