---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/06/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:05 AM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling (Robert Feldtman) 2. 12:06 PM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling () 3. 12:25 PM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 4. 03:17 PM - Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Keith S. Gordon) 5. 03:38 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 6. 03:46 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Tom Fisher) 7. 04:01 PM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling (nico css) 8. 04:19 PM - Re: Strap yourself in. (nico css) 9. 04:49 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Donnie Rose) 10. 05:11 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (John Vormbaum) 11. 05:40 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (nico css) 12. 06:24 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (BobsV35B@aol.com) 13. 06:59 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Stan) 14. 07:00 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (JTAddington) 15. 07:17 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Robert S. Randazzo) 16. 09:01 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (John Vormbaum) 17. 10:43 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (nico css) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:37 AM PST US From: "Robert Feldtman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling I know this is an entirely dirrent string. but-- the commander is wonderful it has three hydraulic pumps one elec and two engine. if all three fail and or the fluid pumps out (shouldn't if you follow directions as noted wrt cir brker) then you CAN get all the gear down - first with the N2 blow down bottle assuming it is topped off. if it is too low, just slow down to right above stall, pop the nose up and the gravity will pull down the gear as you put the gear handle down. the bungee cords on the mainlys will lock them over TDC and they will latch.. and the nose should lock too. three green will confirm it. a nicely pollished spinner on the props will allow you to look at the nose gear to see it is down. So I don't plan to have a nose gear collapse in my 500B! Now - reverse steering with a blown o ring in the nose gear steering is another topic! bobf 500B On 4/5/08, dfalik@sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Gary, > > > I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 =BD years. It is > the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600 > lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the > engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running an d > the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic flui d > or both pumps are not working. > > > It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the > same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel the > total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that noticeabl e. > > > I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we > will all learn from it. > > > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary Giesler > *Sent:* Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > Question > > Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that > continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure needl e > is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the brake s > the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the bra kes > are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking rela y > sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have owned > 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ? > > > Gary > 500RX--1974 > 500S > ------------------------------ > > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get > started! > > * * > > * * > > ** > > * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > > ** > > * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > > ** > > * --> http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > * - List Contribution Web Site -* > > * Thank you for your generous support!* > > * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* > > * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:30 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. With the catastrophic loss of fluid the landings again were a non issue. The first time the line was in the baggage area with the unpleasant result obvious. The second time it was fitting between two sections of line but this time it was in a wing root with the fluid running down the side of the fuselage. Recently, within the last 3 months, I had another issue where after start up the hydraulic pressure didn't register above 600 and I assumed it was failure of the engine driven pumps (again). It turned out to be the accumulator/regulator. Apparently something in the regulator wears and needs to be overhauled. There is only one place in the country that does it and the overhauled part is sold through commander service centers. It is a $4900.00 item with a $4000.00 core charge to assure them that your part is able to be overhauled. Replacing the part solved the problem and luckily my core charge was returned to me a month or so later. Again, this is just to share experiences and I am always open to other more knowledgeable comments. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling Don. When the engines are driving their pumps the psi is around 1000. And the needle is not twitching , I cant tell if the clicking relay sound is there or not because of the noise. I will experiment with finding the flap " OFF" detent......didn't know there was one. Thanks Gary 500RX ________________________________ > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:51:19 -0400 > > > Gary, > > > > I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 years. It is the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600 lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running and the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic fluid or both pumps are not working. > > > > It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel the total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that noticeable. > > > > I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we will all learn from it. > > > > Don > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > Question > > Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure needle is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the brakes the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the brakes are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking relay sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have owned 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ? > > Gary > 500RX--1974 500S > > ________________________________ > > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51 N1653A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:51 PM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling Thanks for the excellent discussion regarding hydraulic systems. That's what makes this forum so valuable and helpful to Commander owners. I am getting all new hydraulic hoses with the new engines in my 680F. I have added the "pull the hydraulic pump switch" to my climb-out check list, and of course try to remember to push it back in prior to landing. Thanks again for the great comments. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfalik@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. With the catastrophic loss of fluid the landings again were a non issue. The first time the line was in the baggage area with the unpleasant result obvious. The second time it was fitting between two sections of line but this time it was in a wing root with the fluid running down the side of the fuselage. Recently, within the last 3 months, I had another issue where after start up the hydraulic pressure didn't register above 600 and I assumed it was failure of the engine driven pumps (again). It turned out to be the accumulator/regulator. Apparently something in the regulator wears and needs to be overhauled. There is only one place in the country that does it and the overhauled part is sold through commander service centers. It is a $4900.00 item with a $4000.00 core charge to assure them that your part is able to be overhauled. Replacing the part solved the problem and luckily my core charge was returned to me a month or so later. Again, this is just to share experiences and I am always open to other more knowledgeable comments. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling Don. When the engines are driving their pumps the psi is around 1000. And the needle is not twitching , I cant tell if the clicking relay sound is there or not because of the noise. I will experiment with finding the flap " OFF" detent......didn't know there was one. Thanks Gary 500RX ________________________________ > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:51:19 -0400 > > > Gary, > > > > I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 years. It is the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600 lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running and the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic fluid or both pumps are not working. > > > > It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel the total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that noticeable. > > > > I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we will all learn from it. > > > > Don > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > Question > > Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure needle is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the brakes the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the brakes are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking relay sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have owned 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ? > > Gary > 500RX--1974 500S > > ________________________________ > > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51 N1653A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:54 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas From: "Keith S. Gordon" As the French say, "Each to his own fish."? At least I've been told they say that. I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement with the aux hydraulic c/b.? Gear up, pull the c/b.? Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic c/b set. I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.? There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a breaker switch.? I really like that idea because you can install the switch so that up is off.?? (If this were not such a public place, I'd suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. Gear handle down / switch down (on) =? aux pump enabled. With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at that moment. This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm convinced it's the way to go.? I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures and the fact that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out of the 3 times. But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. Wing Commander Gordon -----Original Message----- From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:04 PM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Gear up, breaker out / gear down, breaker in. I like that. Thanks. RD Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told they say that. I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement with the aux hydraulic c/b. Gear up, pull the c/b. Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic c/b set. I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at that moment. This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm convinced it's the way to go. I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out of the 3 times. But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. Wing Commander Gordon -----Original Message----- From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. _____ Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:42 PM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let's see now....gear out and ahhh cb up? ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Dettmer, AIA To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:35 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Gear up, breaker out / gear down, breaker in. I like that. Thanks. RD Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:15 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told they say that. I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement with the aux hydraulic c/b. Gear up, pull the c/b. Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic c/b set. I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at that moment. This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm convinced it's the way to go. I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out of the 3 times. But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. Wing Commander Gordon -----Original Message----- From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:10 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling I wrote earlier about a total hydraulic loss in my straight 500 a number of years ago and slowing down to just above stall-speed popped the gear down and locked without any hesitation. After an uneventful landing (I believe I feathered both engines on short final just in case), without hydraulics, the plane stayed on the center line and as it slowed down it slowly castered off the runway into the rough where it came to a halt. The fire truck picked me up and I had the FBO tow it back to the shop. It wasn't a non-event but the in-flight hydraulic failure was more of a heart-stopper than the landing. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling I know this is an entirely dirrent string. but-- the commander is wonderful it has three hydraulic pumps one elec and two engine. if all three fail and or the fluid pumps out (shouldn't if you follow directions as noted wrt cir brker) then you CAN get all the gear down - first with the N2 blow down bottle assuming it is topped off. if it is too low, just slow down to right above stall, pop the nose up and the gravity will pull down the gear as you put the gear handle down. the bungee cords on the mainlys will lock them over TDC and they will latch.. and the nose should lock too. three green will confirm it. a nicely pollished spinner on the props will allow you to look at the nose gear to see it is down. So I don't plan to have a nose gear collapse in my 500B! Now - reverse steering with a blown o ring in the nose gear steering is another topic! bobf 500B On 4/5/08, dfalik@sbcglobal.net wrote: Gary, I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 =BD years. It is the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600 lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running and the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic fluid or both pumps are not working. It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel the total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that noticeable. I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we will all learn from it. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling Question Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure needle is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the brakes the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the brakes are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking relay sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have owned 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ? Gary 500RX--1974 500S _____ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! - The Commander-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:34 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Commander-List: RE: Strap yourself in. Only in the beginning. After a while of practice, one gets the knack of it and learns to fly straight and level. :-D Is this the way you fly??? =-O http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-Japanese-Aerobatics.wm v Regards . . . art la combe ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:51 PM PST US From: Donnie Rose Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: Keith S. Gordon Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told they say that. I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement with the aux hydraulic c/b. Gear up, pull the c/b. Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic c/b set. I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at that moment. This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, I'm convinced it's the way to go. I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 out of the 3 times. But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. Wing Commander Gordon -----Original Message----- From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:30 PM PST US From: John Vormbaum Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing > > to remember before landing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > , Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:56 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > --> > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the > remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another > thing > > to remember before landing. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > , Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:52 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Gentlemen, Just a comment from a non current Commander type. It is pretty basic, but do you teach the use of adverse aileron drag to aid in directional control on the ground? If you are getting down to low speed and the nose starts to swing to the left, full left aileron will help it come back toward the center. Those ailerons are pretty effective even with the nose on the ground. The drag of a down aileron will help even at very low speeds. It is certainly not intuitive to use left aileron when the nose is swinging to the left, but it will help bring it back to the right! And, of course, the same principle works if the nose is heading to the right when you do not want it to. Right aileron will bring the nose to the left. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/6/2008 7:41:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:01 PM PST US From: "Stan" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way, although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane stays upright without tilting to either side. Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:15 PM PST US From: "JTAddington" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I might as well put my two cents in. I had a friend, which is the best electronics man I have ever seen, put a switch in the aux pump system with a blue light that would come on any time the pump is running. He also put in a red light to tell me the pump switch was off. This was a long time ago and we got it by the FAA with a field approval. My first Hydraulic failure the blue light was what told me I had a problem. It took four failures before we finally found it was the accumulator. I had a mechanic tell me that I should check the pressure every so often to see if it was bumping the limit. If it is I should pump the brakes to bring it back down to the 1000 PSI or the hydraulic fluid will over heat which is what happened to me. We thought it was pump seals and hoses. I had one more failure when one of the new hoses failed. I had brakes and steering on all of them. Jim A N444BD 500A -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > --> > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the > remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another > thing > > to remember before landing. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > , Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:14 PM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Commanders- I hope I never regret saying this, but: If I am making an emergency landing with the possibility of gear collapse- I'm willing to accept the probability of consequential damage that results from making the safest approach and landing possible with the remaining parts of the airplane. After all- this is what I pay the insurer for... Robert S. Randazzo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way, although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane stays upright without tilting to either side. Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. __________ NOD32 3005 (20080406) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:42 PM PST US From: John Vormbaum Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Stan, I can't speak about the turbine airplanes, especially the 690 series and everything that came after, but I'm sure that all the piston airplanes will have prop clearance if they land on the belly. There are plenty of piston models out there with damage history that mentions "gear-up landing" in the logbooks without mentioning "prop strike". I'm aware of one airplane that has more than one gear-up landing in the books with no mention of a teardown or even IRAN. /John Stan wrote: > > As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious > exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit > with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way, > although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd > get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane > stays upright without tilting to either side. > > Stan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a > good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and > the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out > whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than > directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill > and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either > side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike > would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. > N. > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:35 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Gentlemen, Just a comment from a non current Commander type. It is pretty basic, but do you teach the use of adverse aileron drag to aid in directional control on the ground? If you are getting down to low speed and the nose starts to swing to the left, full left aileron will help it come back toward the center. Those ailerons are pretty effective even with the nose on the ground. The drag of a down aileron will help even at very low speeds. It is certainly not intuitive to use left aileron when the nose is swinging to the left, but it will help bring it back to the right! And, of course, the same principle works if the nose is heading to the right when you do not want it to. Right aileron will bring the nose to the left. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/6/2008 7:41:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. _____ .. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.