Commander-List Digest Archive

Mon 04/07/08


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:31 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     2. 06:10 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Nick Martin)
     3. 06:32 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (MASON CHEVAILLIER)
     4. 07:04 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     5. 07:20 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Steve at Col-East)
     6. 07:52 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Steve at Col-East)
     7. 09:36 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     8. 11:16 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Nick Martin)
     9. 12:25 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Steve at Col-East)
    10. 07:16 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Donnie Rose)
    11. 07:17 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Donnie Rose)
    12. 08:02 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Robert S. Randazzo)
    13. 08:17 PM - Re: Electric fuel pump cycling ()
    14. 08:25 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas ()
    15. 08:29 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (John Vormbaum)
    16. 08:46 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (John Vormbaum)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:31:43 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:10:02 AM PST US
    From: "Nick Martin" <nick@container.com>
    Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander =85=85..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right to go left From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. _____ Planning your summer road trip? Check out HYPERLINK "http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv0003000000 0016" \nAOL Travel Guides. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Commander-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion Checked by AVG. 4/6/2008 11:12 AM Checked by AVG. 4/6/2008 11:12 AM


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:32:22 AM PST US
    From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala@MSN.COM>
    Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    the non turbine bodies will incur a prop strike if only one gear colapses. gmc > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 21:00:54 -0700> From: john@vormbaum.com> To: comman der-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pum um.com>> > Stan,> > I can't speak about the turbine airplanes, especially t he 690 series and > everything that came after, but I'm sure that all the p iston airplanes > will have prop clearance if they land on the belly. There are plenty of > piston models out there with damage history that mentions "gear-up > landing" in the logbooks without mentioning "prop strike". I'm a ware of > one airplane that has more than one gear-up landing in the books with no > mention of a teardown or even IRAN.> > /John> > > Stan wrote:> > s a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious> > ex ception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit> > with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way,> > although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd > > get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the p lane> > stays upright without tilting to either side.> >> > Stan> >> > ---- -Original Message-----> > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css> > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM> > To: commander-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas> >> > --> Co mmander-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>> >> > I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a> > good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and> > the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to f ind out> > whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) tha n> > directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill> > and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred f eet either> > side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike> > would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.> > N.> > ===========> > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:04:09 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Good Morning Nick, Actually, I recommend that the procedure be used every time you fly the airplane! It is so counter intuitive that it needs to be ingrained so that you will use it correctly when the chips are down. I would imagine your were taught to do it that way from your first hour of training, but the reason it works was not explained. Didn't your instructor tell you to use aileron into the wind in a crosswind? They will usually tell you that action is to hold the wing down, but the more important reason for using the aileron into the wind is generally to ai d in directional control. Once again, there are many variables and it is just one of many possible techniques, but it does work. If you have any seaplane experience, you were probably taught how to "Sail" the machine when on the water. Same deal! The idea is to use everything that is available at all times, but be carefu l that you do not apply one correction that is fighting another. As an example. The Fairchild Model Twenty Four is one of the most delightfu l and gentle airplanes to fly that I have ever seen. However, the aileron adverse yaw is so great that if full right aileron is used for a slight rig ht crosswind, the left turning effect is so powerful that you will run out of right rudder when trying to hold it straight. That same effect can be seen, though not as powerfully, when flying a Twin Beech or a C-46. The idea is to know how powerful the turning force is for your individual airplane and then use it according to circumstances that exist. I try to teach that it be worked with constantly so that the control is available when needed. Used correctly, the nose wheel steering will only be required for taxiing and, even then, the advantageous use of aileron "adverse" yaw can be helpfu l. Any help? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 8:11:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nick@container.com writes: Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander ..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right t o go left (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000 016)


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:20:16 AM PST US
    From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2@sover.net>
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Ok.... So you're essentially using adverse yaw...... on the ground to steer in a jam....... As long as the ship you're flying develops adverse yaw with aileron.... Yes? ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:52:20 AM PST US
    From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2@sover.net>
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Question answered.... I had not received the last post when I wrote mine...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve at Col-East To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Ok.... So you're essentially using adverse yaw...... on the ground to steer in a jam....... As long as the ship you're flying develops adverse yaw with aileron.... Yes? ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:36:11 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Hi Steve, Yep! Except I recommend that it be used not just in a jam, but all of the time! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 9:21:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2@sover.net writes: Ok.... So you're essentially using adverse yaw...... on the ground to steer in a jam....... As long as the ship you're flying develops adverse yaw with aileron.... Yes? (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:16:40 AM PST US
    From: "Nick Martin" <nick@container.com>
    Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Bob ,thank you ,I=92ll give it a try=85. Nicolas E. Martin Martin Container, Inc. 1402 E. Lomita Blvd. Wilmington, Ca 90748 Tel: 310-830-5000, Fax : 310-830-2562 _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nick, Actually, I recommend that the procedure be used every time you fly the airplane! It is so counter intuitive that it needs to be ingrained so that you will use it correctly when the chips are down. I would imagine your were taught to do it that way from your first hour of training, but the reason it works was not explained. Didn't your instructor tell you to use aileron into the wind in a crosswind? They will usually tell you that action is to hold the wing down, but the more important reason for using the aileron into the wind is generally to aid in directional control. Once again, there are many variables and it is just one of many possible techniques, but it does work. If you have any seaplane experience, you were probably taught how to "Sail" the machine when on the water. Same deal! The idea is to use everything that is available at all times, but be careful that you do not apply one correction that is fighting another. As an example. The Fairchild Model Twenty Four is one of the most delightful and gentle airplanes to fly that I have ever seen. However, the aileron adverse yaw is so great that if full right aileron is used for a slight right crosswind, the left turning effect is so powerful that you will run out of right rudder when trying to hold it straight. That same effect can be seen, though not as powerfully, when flying a Twin Beech or a C-46. The idea is to know how powerful the turning force is for your individual airplane and then use it according to circumstances that exist. I try to teach that it be worked with constantly so that the control is available when needed. Used correctly, the nose wheel steering will only be required for taxiing and, even then, the advantageous use of aileron "adverse" yaw can be helpful. Any help? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 8:11:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nick@container.com writes: Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander =85=85..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right to go left _____ Planning your summer road trip? Check out HYPERLINK "http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv0003000000 0016" \nAOL Travel Guides. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Commander-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion / Checked by AVG. 3/27/2008 10:03 AM


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:25:29 PM PST US
    From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2@sover.net>
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    If there's a sudden worldwide rash of off-runway excursions for Commanders for the month of April 2008, we'll know what happened! ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Martin To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob ,thank you ,I=92ll give it a try=85. Nicolas E. Martin Martin Container, Inc. 1402 E. Lomita Blvd. Wilmington, Ca 90748 Tel: 310-830-5000, Fax : 310-830-2562 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:02 AM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nick, Actually, I recommend that the procedure be used every time you fly the airplane! It is so counter intuitive that it needs to be ingrained so that you will use it correctly when the chips are down. I would imagine your were taught to do it that way from your first hour of training, but the reason it works was not explained. Didn't your instructor tell you to use aileron into the wind in a crosswind? They will usually tell you that action is to hold the wing down, but the more important reason for using the aileron into the wind is generally to aid in directional control. Once again, there are many variables and it is just one of many possible techniques, but it does work. If you have any seaplane experience, you were probably taught how to "Sail" the machine when on the water. Same deal! The idea is to use everything that is available at all times, but be careful that you do not apply one correction that is fighting another. As an example. The Fairchild Model Twenty Four is one of the most delightful and gentle airplanes to fly that I have ever seen. However, the aileron adverse yaw is so great that if full right aileron is used for a slight right crosswind, the left turning effect is so powerful that you will run out of right rudder when trying to hold it straight. That same effect can be seen, though not as powerfully, when flying a Twin Beech or a C-46. The idea is to know how powerful the turning force is for your individual airplane and then use it according to circumstances that exist. I try to teach that it be worked with constantly so that the control is available when needed. Used correctly, the nose wheel steering will only be required for taxiing and, even then, the advantageous use of aileron "adverse" yaw can be helpful. Any help? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 8:11:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nick@container.com writes: Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander =85=85..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right to go left ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. Release Date: 3/27/2008 10:03 AM Checked by AVG. 3/27/2008 10:03 AM


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:16:13 PM PST US
    From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com> > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing > > to remember before landing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:17:25 PM PST US
    From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    The key is it would pump down to that Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com> > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing > > to remember before landing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:02:14 PM PST US
    From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com>
    Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com> > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>> > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:17:22 PM PST US
    From: <dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Electric fuel pump cycling
    -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 4:24 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling <rcdettmer@charter.net> Thanks for the excellent discussion regarding hydraulic systems. That's what makes this forum so valuable and helpful to Commander owners. I am getting all new hydraulic hoses with the new engines in my 680F. I have added the "pull the hydraulic pump switch" to my climb-out check list, and of course try to remember to push it back in prior to landing. Thanks again for the great comments. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfalik@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. With the catastrophic loss of fluid the landings again were a non issue. The first time the line was in the baggage area with the unpleasant result obvious. The second time it was fitting between two sections of line but this time it was in a wing root with the fluid running down the side of the fuselage. Recently, within the last 3 months, I had another issue where after start up the hydraulic pressure didn't register above 600 and I assumed it was failure of the engine driven pumps (again). It turned out to be the accumulator/regulator. Apparently something in the regulator wears and needs to be overhauled. There is only one place in the country that does it and the overhauled part is sold through commander service centers. It is a $4900.00 item with a $4000.00 core charge to assure them that your part is able to be overhauled. Replacing the part solved the problem and luckily my core charge was returned to me a month or so later. Again, this is just to share experiences and I am always open to other more knowledgeable comments. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling <gjgiesler@hotmail.com> Don. When the engines are driving their pumps the psi is around 1000. And the needle is not twitching , I cant tell if the clicking relay sound is there or not because of the noise. I will experiment with finding the flap " OFF" detent......didn't know there was one. Thanks Gary 500RX ________________________________ > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:51:19 -0400 > > > Gary, > > > > I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 years. It is the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600 lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running and the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic fluid or both pumps are not working. > > > > It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel the total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that noticeable. > > > > I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we will all learn from it. > > > > Don > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > Question > > Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure needle is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the brakes the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the brakes are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking relay sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have owned 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ? > > Gary > 500RX--1974 500S > > ________________________________ > > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51 N1653A


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:25:04 PM PST US
    From: <dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com> > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>> > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:29:22 PM PST US
    From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Robert, The hydraulic system as it is set up is a solid design, but it DOES depend on the pilot diagnosing a leak condition before things become critical. At 1,000 psi, you can pump the contents of your hydraulic fluid reservoir overboard in seconds, down to the standpipe limit. After which, the aux pump will happily take a few more seconds to finish the job of pumping the remaining fluid out. I agree with your assessment of "in-cockpit solutions" generally. However, in this case (and there has been a LOT of thought put into this by people who know these airplanes VERY well), there aren't any adverse consequences of landing with the breaker pulled. If the system is sound, you have 1,000 redundant psi (on the newer airframes that have a hyd. pump on each engine) available for brakes & steering. If the system is unsound (leak & subsequent pressure loss), you'll know because the gear will hang on the locks, down a couple of inches from the stowed position. It makes noise. You can see it. I'm assuming this happens in all the Commanders after a complete loss of pressure, since it did in my 500B and also in a 500S I was ferrying. That should be the wakeup call to get ready to push the breaker in on final. If you forget, you're in the same boat you would have been in if you had never pulled the breaker. In my case it was too late. I hadn't pulled the breaker in either circumstance (I wasn't trained to) and ended up with about a thimbleful of fluid left after the flight. I've added the breaker pull to my checklist. You're right that these airplanes are exceptionally well designed.....so I am a bit surprised that the aux pump system is set up this way. /John PS: Interestingly, although I didn't try them until after the airplane came to a complete stop, in both failures I still had brakes...at least enough to get one good tromp on the pedals, anyway. Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > > Donnie, et al- > > Im not so sure I agree with the wise ones who are pulling the breaker. > > Back in my chief piloting days we used to see in cockpit solutions > to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This > has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the > per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering > adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic > failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a > greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which > it wasnt designed. > > Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the > system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes > EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- > Im betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably > very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the > ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. > > Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a > central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump But again- Im > sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus > alternative design theories > > Im leaving the breaker in. > > Robert S. Randazzo > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Donnie Rose > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you > down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise > ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). > > > *Donnie Rose ** > *205/492-8444** > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > <mailto:john@vormbaum.com>> > > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the > hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven > pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the > reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the > aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so > in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux > pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. > Again....ask me how I know :-). > > With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot > runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the > nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost > elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and > the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear > door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I > didn't block the runway! > > After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and > towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. > > I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or > after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some > directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I > would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally > ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are > quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick > with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick > the airframe is with two feathered! > > /J > > Donnie Rose wrote: > > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > > > > *Donnie Rose > > 205/492-8444* > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft@aol.com>> > > To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > > they say that. > > > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > > c/b set. > > > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of > resets. > > > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > > that moment. > > > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > > out of the 3 times. > > > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > * > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net> > > To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com> > > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net> <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net > <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>>> > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > Just to share: > > > > > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > > > fluid in > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > ** > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > > > __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ > > * > > > *


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:46:31 PM PST US
    From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
    Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
    Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik@sbcglobal.net wrote: > > All, > > As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to > the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting > along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient > pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to > the bungies and springs for the nose gear. > > I dont know where the information came from that relates to ALL the > hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line > breaking. It didnt happen on my 500S. > > Im not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. > > Don > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Robert S. Randazzo > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > Donnie, et al- > > Im not so sure I agree with the wise ones who are pulling the breaker. > > Back in my chief piloting days we used to see in cockpit solutions > to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This > has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the > per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering > adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic > failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a > greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which > it wasnt designed. > > Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the > system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes > EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- > Im betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably > very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the > ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. > > Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a > central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump But again- Im > sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus > alternative design theories > > Im leaving the breaker in. > > Robert S. Randazzo > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Donnie Rose > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you > down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise > ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). > > > **Donnie Rose *** > **205/492-8444*** > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > <mailto:john@vormbaum.com>> > > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the > hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven > pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the > reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the > aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so > in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux > pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. > Again....ask me how I know :-). > > With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot > runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the > nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost > elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and > the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear > door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I > didn't block the runway! > > After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and > towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. > > I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or > after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some > directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I > would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally > ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are > quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick > with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick > the airframe is with two feathered! > > /J > > Donnie Rose wrote: > > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > > > > *Donnie Rose > > 205/492-8444* > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft@aol.com>> > > To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > > they say that. > > > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > > c/b set. > > > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of > resets. > > > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > > that moment. > > > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > > out of the 3 times. > > > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > * > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net> > > To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com> > > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net> <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net > <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>>> > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > Just to share: > > > > > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > > > fluid in > > * * > * * > * * > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > * * > *http://forums.matronics.com* > * * > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * * > > > __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ > > * * > * * > ** > * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* > ** > ** > ** > ** > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > ** > * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > ** > * --> http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > * - List Contribution Web Site -* > * Thank you for your generous support!* > * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* > * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > * > > > *




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