Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:39 AM - Re: "stering" (N395V)
2. 07:30 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Moe-rosspistons)
3. 08:00 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Keith S. Gordon)
4. 09:58 AM - Commander at work (Steve at Col-East)
5. 11:01 AM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (nico css)
6. 01:16 PM - Re: Commander at work (David Owens)
7. 01:33 PM - Re: Commander at work (nico css)
8. 01:39 PM - Re: Commander at work (Steve at Col-East)
9. 01:45 PM - Re: Commander at work (David Owens)
10. 01:45 PM - Re: Commander at work (Steve at Col-East)
11. 01:57 PM - Re: Commander at work (Steve at Col-East)
12. 02:03 PM - Re: Commander at work (Steve at Col-East)
13. 03:15 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Nancy Gilliam)
14. 03:25 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Nancy Gilliam)
15. 04:11 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (BobsV35B@aol.com)
16. 04:39 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Don)
17. 04:46 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Robert S. Randazzo)
18. 05:01 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (BobsV35B@aol.com)
19. 05:03 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (Nancy Gilliam)
20. 08:01 PM - Re: Commander at work (Keith S. Gordon)
21. 11:01 PM - Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas (nico css)
Message 1
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As Jim Crunkleton says..."experience is what you get when you are expecting something
else".
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175677#175677
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Nico,
I don't get it. My Commander will not taxi from a standing start on one
engine, although J.B. told me that it could be done by turning the nose
wheel as far as it would go away from the running engine, start out in a
circle and slowly increase the circle diameter to a straight line?
Regards,
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
From: nico css
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
That jogged my memory, Richard.
My straight 500 a strictly left-engine-starter.
Once I had a young hot-shot fly a charter in her and I went out to make
sure everything was taken care of, when I briefed him on the plane's
peculiarities, such as, starting the left engine first at all times. He,
of course, fired up the right engine because it was the furthest from
the door in case they had to evacuate. Those Lyc's had no need for a
second opinion when it came to starting; they fired up right away. So,
there I was pushing back on the nose while he tried to get the left
engine going. It wasn't hilarious at the time, but we laughed about it
afterwards. He had to deal with his pax for the duration of the flight.
Served him right.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
& Jacqui Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:04 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5 of
them)
The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves.
Hence the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems
therefore rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking
brake valve shuts the system off between the calipers and the
brake/steering valves thus locking the pressure on the brakes. The
accumulator has nothing to do with it. Its only function really is to
stop the pressure relief valve from chattering by essentially adding a
little 'give' in the system. Not trusting the good old park brake is the
reason we pressurize the system either by hand pump or electric before
we start the engines. Nothing is more entertaining than a commander
starting to move before the hydraulics pressurize. Particularly good in
those older models that only have one pump and its not on the engine you
decided to start.
Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc)
Cheers
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Feldtman
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I
"think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the
flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should
be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc.
So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is
interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the
brakes are working.
I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the
commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I
don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he
tried to drag - of course nothing was "on"
That should stimulate some discussion.
bobf
500B
On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> wrote:
Don,
After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if
this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've
had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a
non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would
then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the
gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap
landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a
900-ft. strip.
So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue
that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might
be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of
hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself,
just pointing out what I'm seeing.
/John
dfalik@sbcglobal.net wrote:
All,
As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to
the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting
along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient
pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the
bungies and springs for the nose gear.
I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the
hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking.
It didn't happen on my 500S.
I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing.
Don
-----Original Message-----
*From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert
S. Randazzo
*Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM
*To:* commander-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Donnie, et al-
I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the
breaker.
Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to
these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has
led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the
per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering
adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic
failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater
overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't
designed.
Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system
was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a
leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting
the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very
comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of
the pilot to handle it effectively.
Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central
tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the
designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative
design theories.
I'm leaving the breaker in.
Robert S. Randazzo
*From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie
Rose
*Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM
*To:* commander-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you
down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise
ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included).
**Donnie Rose ***
**205/492-8444***
----- Original Message ----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
<mailto:john@vormbaum.com>>
Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the
hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven
pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the
reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the
aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so
in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux
pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture.
Again....ask me how I know :-).
With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot
runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the
nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost
elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and
the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear
door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I
didn't block the runway!
After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and
towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of
difficulty.
I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or
after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some
directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I
would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally
ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are
quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick
with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick
the airframe is with two feathered!
/J
Donnie Rose wrote:
> WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux
> pump to pump everything above the sump overboard.
>
>
> *Donnie Rose
> 205/492-8444*
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft@aol.com>>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
>
> *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told
> they say that.
>
> I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement
> with the aux hydraulic c/b.
>
> Gear up, pull the c/b.
>
> Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic
> c/b set.
>
> I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.
> There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of
resets.
>
> My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a
> breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the
> switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd
> suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
>
> In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /
> switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
>
> Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
>
> With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to
> touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at
> that moment.
>
> This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds
> around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern,
> I'm convinced it's the way to go.
>
> I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact
> that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2
> out of the 3 times.
>
> But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
> *
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
<mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net> <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net
<mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>>>
>
>
> All,
>
>
> Just to share:
>
>
> In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
>
> Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
>
> airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the
remaining
>
> fluid in
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 4:15 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Since this thread is called "pump ideas", it looks like?it ?would have been a good
idea to put the intake for the electric pump at the same place as the engine
pump. Then saved the hand pump for the emergency. I understand my straight
500 is plumbed where the electric pump on the later models are. In case? both
pumps ,and the electric pump went out, you could still hand pump for brakes?and
?flaps. Correct me if I am wrong. I fly a straight 500, and love the simplicity
.
Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has a hose rupture, can I pump
for brakes and flaps without pumping overboard, as long as the problem is not in
brake or flap plumbing??
?
?
Thanks,
Roland Gilliam?? AC 500??? ?N6291b
Roland,
Thanks for asking the question.?? On your model, the hand pump has a selector valve
on the floor that will isolate hand pump pressure from the whole system to
brakes and flaps only.? Later models did away with the hand pump and replaced
it with the electric aux pump.
As for the electric aux pump operation / enabling / disabling discussion ...
Last post I quoted the French.? This time I'm going to lean upon H. Ideas Gordoninsky,
the 1996 third runner up for the Nobel Prize in Quantum Physics.? His
theory is that for every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD.
When I advocate disabling the electric aux pump it is a variation from the SOPs
in the flight manual.? The flight manual (pre-Rockwell) is also only a couple
of pages thick, 40+ years old and never went into depth about what the convenience
of an automatic back up system will provide or spoil.
Yes, the designer of the Aero Commander knew what he was doing.? Ted Smith also
built the Aero Star.? Before I flew my first Commander in 1978 (a 500 and then
a 680E), I was an Aero Star demo pilot, so I came to the Commanders "backwards,"
flying Ted Smith's later idea before his earlier ideas.
The Aero Star has the aux pump breaker switch and annunciator light that we have
been referring to, so it's an evolution of the system and I think adaptable
or retrofitable (is that a word?) to the Commander.
View full size
Here's a picture of the older style hydraulic reservoir.? The flat nacelle series
is really the same without the canted filler spout.? I hope this helps everyone
understand how the stand pipe that supplies the engine driven pumps leaves
0.8 quart of fluid for the emergency (aux electric for those so equipped) to
draw from.
In the event of a hydraulic failure, your first realistic clue will be the nose
gear extending.? The nose gear is held up by hydraulic pressure only, constantly
fighting a spring that's always trying to push it down.
The main landing gear (flat nacelle models) are held up by mechanical uplocks that
are hydraulically released.??? Placing the landing gear handle down releases
the main landing gear uplocks and the gear gravity falls assisted by pneumatic
pressure that's always on the down side of the outboard MLG actuators, the
bungees -- and in normal ops, 1000 psi of hydraulic power.
When you're surprised by the nose gear extending in flight, you'll eventually look
at the hydraulic pressure gage and notice it's on zero.? If you have cat like
reflexes and are a brilliant systems man, you'll reach over and disable the
aux electric hydraulic pump and save what's still left of your 0.8 quart of
fluid to operate the brakes.? (The gear will come down as described and flaps
are a luxury you probably can't afford right now.)
As for starting engines with the aux pump disabled, in case you forgot to reset
it upon the prior landing gear extension, you'll catch that during your "quiet
checks" before engine start, right?
"Quiet checks?"? Prior to engine start, and before putting on your seat belt, check
the rudders.? OK.? Get up, go back out, pull the rudder lock and sit down
again. (this is for the non-rubber-chicken-rudder-lock equipped models ... Capt.
JimBob will expand on that).?
Turn on the Master Switch.?
Press the brakes.? Hear / feel the electric aux pump pressurize the brake system.?
(Parking brake off!? As pointed out, it isolates the brakes from the rest
of the system)
Run fuel selectors / shut of valves and listen for operation
Do the rest of your start routine
There it is, lads.?? Stick to the flight manual and trust in check valves ... or
be a reckless aux pump disabling renegade and go to Hell on roller skates like
me.
Wing Commander Gordon
Message 4
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| Subject: | Commander at work |
Some of you might get a kick out of this. I know David will. Right off the
approach end of 4L and 4R at Logan yesterday. Scot here at work can replay
our GPS track.
David, I still feel dizzy!
Boston controllers are tops......
Steve
Message 5
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| Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
J.B. is exactly right. The nose wheel was turned to the left and it was a
slight decline in that direction, too.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Nico,
I don't get it. My Commander will not taxi from a standing start on one
engine, although J.B. told me that it could be done by turning the nose
wheel as far as it would go away from the running engine, start out in a
circle and slowly increase the circle diameter to a straight line?
Regards,
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
That jogged my memory, Richard.
My straight 500 a strictly left-engine-starter.
Once I had a young hot-shot fly a charter in her and I went out to make sure
everything was taken care of, when I briefed him on the plane's
peculiarities, such as, starting the left engine first at all times. He, of
course, fired up the right engine because it was the furthest from the door
in case they had to evacuate. Those Lyc's had no need for a second opinion
when it came to starting; they fired up right away. So, there I was pushing
back on the nose while he tried to get the left engine going. It wasn't
hilarious at the time, but we laughed about it afterwards. He had to deal
with his pax for the duration of the flight. Served him right.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard &
Jacqui Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:04 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5 of
them)
The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves. Hence
the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems therefore
rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking brake valve shuts
the system off between the calipers and the brake/steering valves thus
locking the pressure on the brakes. The accumulator has nothing to do with
it. Its only function really is to stop the pressure relief valve from
chattering by essentially adding a little 'give' in the system. Not trusting
the good old park brake is the reason we pressurize the system either by
hand pump or electric before we start the engines. Nothing is more
entertaining than a commander starting to move before the hydraulics
pressurize. Particularly good in those older models that only have one pump
and its not on the engine you decided to start.
Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc)
Cheers
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Feldtman
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I
"think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps
and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no
different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if
that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting,
educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are
working.
I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander,
and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a
hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag -
of course nothing was "on"
That should stimulate some discussion.
bobf
500B
On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> wrote:
Don,
After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this
is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4
complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event,
essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to
be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come
down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big
deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip.
So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue
that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be
cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd.
failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just
pointing out what I'm seeing.
/John
dfalik@sbcglobal.net wrote:
All,
As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the
rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a
hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the
brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs
for the nose gear.
I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the
hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It
didn't happen on my 500S.
I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing.
Don
-----Original Message-----
*From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S.
Randazzo
*Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM
*To:* commander-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Donnie, et al-
I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker.
Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to
these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led
me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight
chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse
consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure
mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk
exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed.
Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was
designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak
condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the
engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with
the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it
effectively.
Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central
tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the
designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative
design theories.
I'm leaving the breaker in.
Robert S. Randazzo
*From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie
Rose
*Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM
*To:* commander-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to
the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are
pulling the breaker (everyone included).
**Donnie Rose ***
**205/492-8444***
----- Original Message ----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
<mailto:john@vormbaum.com>>
Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the
hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven
pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the
reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the
aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so
in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux
pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture.
Again....ask me how I know :-).
With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot
runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the
nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost
elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and
the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear
door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I
didn't block the runway!
After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and
towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty.
I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or
after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some
directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I
would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally
ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are
quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick
with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick
the airframe is with two feathered!
/J
Donnie Rose wrote:
> WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux
> pump to pump everything above the sump overboard.
>
>
> *Donnie Rose
> 205/492-8444*
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft@aol.com>>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
>
> *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told
> they say that.
>
> I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement
> with the aux hydraulic c/b.
>
> Gear up, pull the c/b.
>
> Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic
> c/b set.
>
> I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.
> There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets.
>
> My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a
> breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the
> switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd
> suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
>
> In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /
> switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
>
> Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
>
> With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to
> touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at
> that moment.
>
> This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds
> around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern,
> I'm convinced it's the way to go.
>
> I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact
> that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2
> out of the 3 times.
>
> But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
> *
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
<mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net> <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net
<mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>>>
>
>
> All,
>
>
> Just to share:
>
>
> In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
>
> Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
>
> airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining
>
> fluid in
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Commander at work |
Steve...
It looks like a pipe project? We have a bunch of those going on since Enron
Ending... The controllers love us. We have one very large project going on
at IAH ,250 AGL, 15 or so lines extending beyond airport boundaries. They
keep asking us if we can complete the project after midnight... hehehe
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
Message 7
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| Subject: | Commander at work |
Steve, was this a photo mission?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at
Col-East
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:55 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Commander at work
Some of you might get a kick out of this. I know David will. Right off the
approach end of 4L and 4R at Logan yesterday. Scot here at work can replay
our GPS track.
David, I still feel dizzy!
Boston controllers are tops......
Steve
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Commander at work |
David, good guess.... It's commuter rail lines. It felt really good to be
coming home with that one in the can in one trip. We finally had smooth air.
First time this spring season. We've been getting hammered this year.
Is 11:30am in the air too early to think about beer?
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Owens" <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander at work
> <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
>
> Steve...
>
> It looks like a pipe project? We have a bunch of those going on since
> Enron
> Ending... The controllers love us. We have one very large project going
> on
> at IAH ,250 AGL, 15 or so lines extending beyond airport boundaries. They
> keep asking us if we can complete the project after midnight... hehehe
>
>
> David Owens
> Aerial Viewpoint
> N14AV
> AC-500A-Colemill
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Commander at work |
Steve...
why hell no... beer that is. Hammered is the word here... Our guys have
come up with a "harness" arrangement that hooks up to the PAV view scope.
They fasten their heads into the harness, keeping their eye steady on the
viewfinder, avoiding the proverbial black eye... hehehe
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Commander at work |
Wait a second..... what do you mean 250' agl? You've figured out how to get
that thing slower than I can! I've done some 1"=175' stuff from 900' or so
and I hate it. We have to get down to about 120 for the camera to keep up
with the forward motion compensation.... I'll sometimes put the feet down,
or half flaps anyway.... 120 down low is my hard limit, but I'm chicken.
(and hopefully I'll live to be an old chicken.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Owens" <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander at work
> <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
>
> Steve...
>
> It looks like a pipe project? We have a bunch of those going on since
> Enron
> Ending... The controllers love us. We have one very large project going
> on
> at IAH ,250 AGL, 15 or so lines extending beyond airport boundaries. They
> keep asking us if we can complete the project after midnight... hehehe
>
>
> David Owens
> Aerial Viewpoint
> N14AV
> AC-500A-Colemill
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Commander at work |
Hi Nico,
Yes it was. But not just for the photos. The photos get exposed with a large
format aerial camera, and those images get used creating maps. Nowadays the
images also are used to create terrain models, and orthophotos like what
Google uses.....
I made a little copy (so I don't fill up people's email) that has little
blue boxes that represent the flight lines and 'stereo-models'. The stereo
models are the overlap of photos from different perspectives. Remember those
old Viewmaster things? Same kinda idea......
David's company does the same kind of photo survey flying...... Commanders
are a favorite survey platform, for very obvious reasons! (At least to this
gang!)
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander at work
> <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
> Steve, was this a photo mission?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at
> Col-East
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:55 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: Commander at work
>
> Some of you might get a kick out of this. I know David will. Right off the
> approach end of 4L and 4R at Logan yesterday. Scot here at work can replay
> our GPS track.
>
> David, I still feel dizzy!
>
> Boston controllers are tops......
>
> Steve
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Commander at work |
You guys are using sights? That's how I grew up with my head stuck to an
RC-8. I know two people over the years that have gotten concussions. I
always kept my head either firmly on, or way the hell off and was lucky.
You wouldn't believe the rig we've got here. There is a video camera in the
lens cone that plays on a video screen whatever the camera sees. The
camerman is sitting on the couch in the back. Plus we've got heat. It's hard
to be sympathetic to cameramen anymore........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Owens" <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander at work
> <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
>
> Steve...
>
> why hell no... beer that is. Hammered is the word here... Our guys have
> come up with a "harness" arrangement that hooks up to the PAV view scope.
> They fasten their heads into the harness, keeping their eye steady on the
> viewfinder, avoiding the proverbial black eye... hehehe
>
>
> David Owens
> Aerial Viewpoint
> N14AV
> AC-500A-Colemill
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Thanks much Keith for taking the time to explain it. It is as I thought, bu
t nice to know I understood correctly.
Roland AC 500 N6291B
ulic Pump IdeasDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:57:01 -0400From: cloudcraft@aol.com
-----Original Message-----From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636@hotmail.com>To: comm
ander-list@matronics.comSent: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 4:15 pmSubject: RE: Commander
-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Since this thread is called "pump ideas", it looks like it would have been
a good idea to put the intake for the electric pump at the same place as t
he engine pump. Then saved the hand pump for the emergency. I understand my
straight 500 is plumbed where the electric pump on the later models are. I
n case both pumps ,and the electric pump went out, you could still hand pu
mp for brakes and flaps. Correct me if I am wrong. I fly a straight 500, a
nd love the simplicity .Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has
a hose rupture, can I pumpfor brakes and flaps without pumping overboard,
as long as the problem is not inbrake or flap plumbing?? Thanks,Roland Gil
liam AC 500 N6291b
Roland,Thanks for asking the question. On your model, the hand pump has a
selector valve on the floor that will isolate hand pump pressure from the
whole system to brakes and flaps only. Later models did away with the hand
pump and replaced it with the electric aux pump.As for the electric aux pu
mp operation / enabling / disabling discussion ...Last post I quoted the Fr
ench. This time I'm going to lean upon H. Ideas Gordoninsky, the 1996 thir
d runner up for the Nobel Prize in Quantum Physics. His theory is that for
every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD.When I advocate disabling the
electric aux pump it is a variation from the SOPs in the flight manual. T
he flight manual (pre-Rockwell) is also only a couple of pages thick, 40+ y
ears old and never went into depth about what the convenience of an automat
ic back up system will provide or spoil.Yes, the designer of the Aero Comma
nder knew what he was doing. Ted Smith also built the Aero Star. Before I
flew my first Commander in 1978 (a 500 and then a 680E), I was an Aero Sta
r demo pilot, so I came to the Commanders "backwards," flying Ted Smith's l
ater idea before his earlier ideas.The Aero Star has the aux pump breaker s
witch and annunciator light that we have been referring to, so it's an evol
ution of the system and I think adaptable or retrofitable (is that a word?)
to the Commander.
View full size
Here's a picture of the older style hydraulic reservoir. The flat nacelle
series is really the same without the canted filler spout. I hope this hel
ps everyone understand how the stand pipe that supplies the engine driven p
umps leaves 0.8 quart of fluid for the emergency (aux electric for those so
equipped) to draw from.In the event of a hydraulic failure, your first rea
listic clue will be the nose gear extending. The nose gear is held up by h
ydraulic pressure only, constantly fighting a spring that's always trying t
o push it down.The main landing gear (flat nacelle models) are held up by m
echanical uplocks that are hydraulically released. Placing the landing g
ear handle down releases the main landing gear uplocks and the gear gravity
falls assisted by pneumatic pressure that's always on the down side of the
outboard MLG actuators, the bungees -- and in normal ops, 1000 psi of hydr
aulic power.When you're surprised by the nose gear extending in flight, you
'll eventually look at the hydraulic pressure gage and notice it's on zero.
If you have cat like reflexes and are a brilliant systems man, you'll rea
ch over and disable the aux electric hydraulic pump and save what's still l
eft of your 0.8 quart of fluid to operate the brakes. (The gear will come
down as described and flaps are a luxury you probably can't afford right no
w.)As for starting engines with the aux pump disabled, in case you forgot t
o reset it upon the prior landing gear extension, you'll catch that during
your "quiet checks" before engine start, right?"Quiet checks?" Prior to en
gine start, and before putting on your seat belt, check the rudders. OK.
Get up, go back out, pull the rudder lock and sit down again. (this is for
the non-rubber-chicken-rudder-lock equipped models ... Capt. JimBob will ex
pand on that). Turn on the Master Switch. Press the brakes. Hear / feel
the electric aux pump pressurize the brake system. (Parking brake off! As
pointed out, it isolates the brakes from the rest of the system)Run fuel s
electors / shut of valves and listen for operationDo the rest of your start
routineThere it is, lads. Stick to the flight manual and trust in check
valves ... or be a reckless aux pump disabling renegade and go to Hell on r
oller skates like me.Wing Commander Gordon
Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More!
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would
you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine t
akes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for a bout
2 days.
Thanks again,
Roland AC500 N6291B
From: BobsV35B@aol.comDate: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:07:23 -0400Subject: Re: Comm
ander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasTo: commander-list@matronics.com
Good Evening Roland,
Since it has been at least forty years since I flew an Aero Commander, I am
not qualified to make a broad and or authoritative statement concerning th
e hydraulic variations of the aircraft.
However, such a lack of knowledge very rarely keeps me quiet!
In general, It All Depends!
Depends on where the leak is located. If you can isolate the leaking system
by setting a valve in neutral, you may be able to retain the standby fluid
long enough to operate whatever is the most important at the time. Any tim
e a hydraulic fluid loss becomes apparent, it is good practice to isolate a
ny suspect system and to depressurize the entire system if that is practica
l.
I do have one old Commander war story.
I was out one dark and stormy night when I lost the left engine. It was Aer
o Commander serial number twenty-four and was still equipped with the T-han
dle one shot feathering device. The one and only engine driven hydraulic pu
mp was on the left engine. Fortunately for me, the landing gear free fell
as designed. I did have a copilot available who could wobble the hand pump,
but hard as he was pumping, the pressure was very slow to build. I elected
to forgo the use of flap and save what pressure was being built up to use
for the brakes.
We later found out that the hand pump seals were quite badly worn. I should
have picked that up when I built up hydraulic pressure before engine start
, but that was the first and, at that time, the only Aero Commander I had e
ver flown. I thought the number of strokes needed to build up adequate pre
start pressure was normal. Later Commanders that I flew could get adequate
prestart pressure by using only three or four strokes on the hand pump.
So I guess the only thing I could add would be that it is important that t
he hand pump be working well and that the pilot understand how to isolate v
arious systems.
My dumb luck held out and I was able to retain braking action by my friend'
s furious pumping of the handle!
Happy Skies,Old BobAKABob SiegfriedAncient Aviator628 West 86th StreetDowne
rs Grove, IL 60516630 985-8502 Stearman N3977ABrookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/8/2008 6:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636@hot
mail.com writes:
Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has a hose rupture, can I p
umpfor brakes and flaps without pumping overboard, as long as the problem i
s not inbrake or flap plumbing?? Thanks,Roland Gilliam AC 500 N6291b
_________________________________________________________________
Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic.
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1N1653A
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Good Evening Roland,
That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years
since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would try
to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if
no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is
that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at
most, but you know, I am getting senile!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
amg3636@hotmail.com writes:
Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would
you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine
takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2
days.
Thanks again,
Roland AC500 N6291B
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Moe;
Makes you wonder how AeroCommander did its famous one engine ferry from
OK. to Washington to demonstrate its ability to fly one on one engine
doesn't it.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Nico,
I don't get it. My Commander will not taxi from a standing start on
one engine, although J.B. told me that it could be done by turning the
nose wheel as far as it would go away from the running engine, start out
in a circle and slowly increase the circle diameter to a straight line?
Regards,
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
From: nico css
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:41 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
That jogged my memory, Richard.
My straight 500 a strictly left-engine-starter.
Once I had a young hot-shot fly a charter in her and I went out to
make sure everything was taken care of, when I briefed him on the
plane's peculiarities, such as, starting the left engine first at all
times. He, of course, fired up the right engine because it was the
furthest from the door in case they had to evacuate. Those Lyc's had no
need for a second opinion when it came to starting; they fired up right
away. So, there I was pushing back on the nose while he tried to get the
left engine going. It wasn't hilarious at the time, but we laughed about
it afterwards. He had to deal with his pax for the duration of the
flight. Served him right.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
& Jacqui Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:04 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5
of them)
The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves.
Hence the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems
therefore rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking
brake valve shuts the system off between the calipers and the
brake/steering valves thus locking the pressure on the brakes. The
accumulator has nothing to do with it. Its only function really is to
stop the pressure relief valve from chattering by essentially adding a
little 'give' in the system. Not trusting the good old park brake is the
reason we pressurize the system either by hand pump or electric before
we start the engines. Nothing is more entertaining than a commander
starting to move before the hydraulics pressurize. Particularly good in
those older models that only have one pump and its not on the engine you
decided to start.
Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc)
Cheers
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Feldtman
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I
"think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the
flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should
be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc.
So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is
interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the
brakes are working.
I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the
commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I
don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he
tried to drag - of course nothing was "on"
That should stimulate some discussion.
bobf
500B
On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> wrote:
<john@vormbaum.com>
Don,
After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if
this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've
had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a
non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would
then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the
gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap
landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a
900-ft. strip.
So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still
argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line
might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6
cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not
reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing.
/John
dfalik@sbcglobal.net wrote:
All,
As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to
the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting
along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient
pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the
bungies and springs for the nose gear.
I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the
hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking.
It didn't happen on my 500S.
I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to
landing.
Don
-----Original Message-----
*From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert
S. Randazzo
*Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM
*To:* commander-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Donnie, et al-
I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the
breaker.
Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions"
to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This
has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the
per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering
adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic
failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater
overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't
designed.
Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the
system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes
EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm
betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very
comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of
the pilot to handle it effectively.
Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a
central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm
sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus
alternative design theories.
I'm leaving the breaker in.
Robert S. Randazzo
*From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie
Rose
*Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM
*To:* commander-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you
down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise
ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included).
**Donnie Rose ***
**205/492-8444***
----- Original Message ----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
<mailto:john@vormbaum.com>>
Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in
the
hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven
pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the
reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the
aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure
event....so
in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux
pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture.
Again....ask me how I know :-).
With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000
foot
runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the
nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost
elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and
the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear
door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least
I
didn't block the runway!
After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and
towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of
difficulty.
I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or
after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some
directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I
would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to
intentionally
ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are
quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick
with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick
the airframe is with two feathered!
/J
Donnie Rose wrote:
> WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the
aux
> pump to pump everything above the sump overboard.
>
>
> *Donnie Rose
> 205/492-8444*
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com
<mailto:cloudcraft@aol.com>>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
>
> *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told
> they say that.
>
> I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement
> with the aux hydraulic c/b.
>
> Gear up, pull the c/b.
>
> Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic
> c/b set.
>
> I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not
switches.
> There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of
resets.
>
> My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with
a
> breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the
> switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd
> suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.)
>
> In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up
/
> switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.
>
> Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.
>
> With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior
to
> touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance
at
> that moment.
>
> This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds
> around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern,
> I'm convinced it's the way to go.
>
> I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact
> that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2
> out of the 3 times.
>
> But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
> *
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dfalik@sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling
>
<mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net> <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net
<mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>>>
>
>
>
> All,
>
>
>
> Just to share:
>
>
>
> In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.
>
> Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was
>
> airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the
remaining
>
> fluid in
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Bob-
Am I the only one seeing a joke buried in here someplace about it taking
more pumps to keep the hydraulics pressurized in us AND our airplanes as we
get older?
Robert S. Randazzo
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Good Evening Roland,
That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years
since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would
try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot
to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My
recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight.
Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
amg3636@hotmail.com writes:
Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would
you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine
takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2
days.
Thanks again,
Roland AC500 N6291B
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
I Like it, I Like it!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Do not Archive
In a message dated 4/9/2008 6:46:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes:
Bob-
Am I the only one seeing a joke buried in here someplace about it taking
more pumps to keep the hydraulics pressurized in us AND our airplanes as we get
older?
Robert S. Randazzo
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and le
t you all know.
Roland
From: BobsV35B@aol.comDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400Subject: Re: Comm
ander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasTo: commander-list@matronics.com
Good Evening Roland,
That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years sin
ce I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would tr
y to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to
me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollecti
on is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a
dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile!
Happy Skies,Old BobAKABob SiegfriedAncient Aviator628 West 86th StreetDowne
rs Grove, IL 60516630 985-8502 Stearman N3977ABrookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636@hot
mail.com writes:
Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would
you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine t
akes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2
days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B
_________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Commander at work |
That has to be the essence of cool!?? Loved the ground tracks -- and does the airplane
in the middle of the nav display just look like a Commander, or is it?
I always enjoy seeing (or reading about) working Commanders.
Wing Commander Gordon
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| Subject: | Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas |
I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made squat in my
500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy
Gilliam
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and let
you all know.
Roland
_____
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Good Evening Roland,
That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years
since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would
try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot
to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My
recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight.
Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
amg3636@hotmail.com writes:
Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would
you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine
takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2
days.
Thanks again,
Roland AC500 N6291B
_____
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