Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:20 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (Bill Hamilton)
2. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (nico css)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (BobsV35B@aol.com)
4. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (nico css)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (BobsV35B@aol.com)
7. 07:41 AM - Re: Flight Load Factors (Moe-rosspistons)
8. 08:30 AM - Re: Flight Load Factors (Barry Collman)
9. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (Bill Hamilton)
10. 10:15 AM - Re: Flight Load Factors (Tom Fisher)
11. 11:33 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (Steve at Col-East)
12. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Flight Load Factors (BobsV35B@aol.com)
13. 03:07 PM - Re: Flight Load Factors (Moe-rosspistons)
14. 07:24 PM - Re: Flight Load Factors (Nancy Gilliam)
15. 07:36 PM - Re: Flight Load Factors (craigk391@sbcglobal.net)
16. 08:40 PM - Re: Flight Load Factors (Jim Addington)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Folks,
The original certification of my 500A was in utility cat., limited
aerobatics --- and we all know what Bob Hoover can do ---- but after the
spare problems (necessitating the spar straps AD) it was revised to Normal
cat.
The design load factors were/are in Car 3/FAR 23. The 1.5 mentioned is FAR
25.
All too many pilots forget the effect of "rolling G", which greatly reduces
the available load factor, by up to 30%, very significant for turbulence and
turbulence penetration speeds.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors
Good Evening Nico,
Chances are that the airplane is actually much stronger than that, but 2 Gs
is all that they have to prove to the FEDs. Same thing is true with the
other listed load factors. It has been a long time so somebody please
correct me where I am wrong, but I THINK the required structural strength on
the tail is only 1.5 Gs!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/4/2008 6:53:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't
much and no negative?
_____
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Rolling G?
Is that a kind of torque motion on the fuselage? Never heard of it (which
shouldn't be surprising).
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Hamilton
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:18 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors
Folks,
The original certification of my 500A was in utility cat., limited
aerobatics --- and we all know what Bob Hoover can do ---- but after the
spare problems (necessitating the spar straps AD) it was revised to Normal
cat.
The design load factors were/are in Car 3/FAR 23. The 1.5 mentioned is FAR
25.
All too many pilots forget the effect of "rolling G", which greatly reduces
the available load factor, by up to 30%, very significant for turbulence and
turbulence penetration speeds.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors
Good Evening Nico,
Chances are that the airplane is actually much stronger than that, but 2 Gs
is all that they have to prove to the FEDs. Same thing is true with the
other listed load factors. It has been a long time so somebody please
correct me where I am wrong, but I THINK the required structural strength on
the tail is only 1.5 Gs!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/4/2008 6:53:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't
much and no negative?
_____
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
AOL <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> Food.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Good Morning Nico,
That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron is
input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That is why it
rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable G load, the
additional load that is impressed by the application of aileron can easily
exceed the design limit which is only calculated for the straight ahead no roll
condition.
I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload
then yank!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:16:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Rolling G?
Is that a kind of torque motion on the fuselage? Never heard of it (which
shouldn't be surprising).
Nico
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Thanks, Bob. I was aware of the phenomenon but now it has a name. In light
GA flying the bubble hanging off the wings (or sitting on top of it) is
usually too light to make much difference. :-)
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors
Good Morning Nico,
That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron is
input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That is why
it rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable G load,
the additional load that is impressed by the application of aileron can
easily exceed the design limit which is only calculated for the straight
ahead no roll condition.
I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload
then yank!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:16:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Rolling G?
Is that a kind of torque motion on the fuselage? Never heard of it (which
shouldn't be surprising).
Nico
_____
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> .
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Darn, failure to proofread correctly!!
Should be: Yank, then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload, then bank!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:48:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Morning Nico,
That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron is
input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That is why it
rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable G load, the
additional load that is impressed by the application of aileron can easily
exceed the design limit which is only calculated for the straight ahead no roll
condition.
I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload
then yank!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Good Morning Nico,
It is true that we GA types rarely have a need for pulling many Gs, but our
airplanes are not required to be built to sustain much of a load so we could
get very close to a limit if we make heavy aileron inputs in turbulence.
It is good practice to avoid using any appreciable roll input while the
airplane is being tossed about by Mother Nature.
As Always, It All Depends!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/6/2008 8:06:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Thanks, Bob. I was aware of the phenomenon but now it has a name. In light
GA flying the bubble hanging off the wings (or sitting on top of it) is
usually too light to make much difference. :-)
Nico
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Hi Barry,
Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about
how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a
mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice
based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written
the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual some
680Fp models had double side windows.
Regards,
Moe
From: Barry Collman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question
regarding the glass in your rear door window.
Here's what he has to say:
"Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window
being found on a Model 689F(P).
As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged
the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the
windows being energized by outside vibrations.
This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture,
bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air
pressure.
The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure.
This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would
measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height.
[Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to
match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and
Z -28.0.]
After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it
is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain
the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would
have been very few and far between.
If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is
possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass
on the existing 500S tooling.
Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with
clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through
the pane to contend with.
This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be
transferred to the replacement glass.
[It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a
stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows
would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]"
Hopefully, that will be the reason.
It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have
the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin
windows.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of
the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I
replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8
AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got
so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit
you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes
sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most.
Three questions for you and/or our fellow members:
1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape,
while all other side windows are perfectly flat?
2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander?
3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is
anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some
of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving
about $500.00 per fill up.
Best regards
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Hi Moe,
I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows.
I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork
that is in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples.
I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my
database.
Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail
about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is
nary a mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best
advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually
written the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual
some 680Fp models had double side windows.
Regards,
Moe
From: Barry Collman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question
regarding the glass in your rear door window.
Here's what he has to say:
"Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window
being found on a Model 689F(P).
As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged
the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the
windows being energized by outside vibrations.
This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture,
bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air
pressure.
The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure.
This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would
measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height.
[Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to
match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and
Z -28.0.]
After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time
it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory
retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares
orders would have been very few and far between.
If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is
possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass
on the existing 500S tooling.
Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with
clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through
the pane to contend with.
This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be
transferred to the replacement glass.
[It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a
stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows
would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]"
Hopefully, that will be the reason.
It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have
the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin
windows.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all
of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly,
I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about
8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got
so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit
you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes
sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most.
Three questions for you and/or our fellow members:
1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape,
while all other side windows are perfectly flat?
2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander?
3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00
is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas.
Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving
about $500.00 per fill up.
Best regards
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Nico,
Spot on re. the effect of turbulence, see my other post.
For FAR 25 transports, the normal design negative G for any degree of flap
extension is 0, nought, nil.
A serious consideration for a 747-400 at 397,000 or 415,000 (ER) taking off
in windy weather or otherwise generated turbulence, I have registered -0.7
on the QAR on takeoff, off the coast at KLAX, we did a serious exceedence
look (took about 60 man hours) back at base.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors
Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't
much and no negative?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KORY
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:49 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors
FOR THE 685
FLAPS UP POSITIVE 3.36 NEGATIVE 1.35
FLAPS DOWN POSITIVE 2.00 NEGATIVE 0.00
KORY
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180894#180894
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
My 1965 680FLP had contoured double windows.
Tom.
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows.
I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork
that is in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples.
I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my
database.
Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail
about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is
nary a mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best
advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually
written the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual
some 680Fp models had double side windows.
Regards,
Moe
From: Barry Collman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your
question regarding the glass in your rear door window.
Here's what he has to say:
"Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window
being found on a Model 689F(P).
As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly
bulged the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from
the windows being energized by outside vibrations.
This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming
fixture, bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly
with air pressure.
The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure.
This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would
measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height.
[Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to
match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and
Z -28.0.]
After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of
time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the
factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future
spares orders would have been very few and far between.
If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is
possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass
on the existing 500S tooling.
Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place
with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern
through the pane to contend with.
This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be
transferred to the replacement glass.
[It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a
stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows
would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]"
Hopefully, that will be the reason.
It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners
have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin
windows.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all
of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly,
I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about
8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got
so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit
you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes
sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most.
Three questions for you and/or our fellow members:
1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape,
while all other side windows are perfectly flat?
2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander?
3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $
1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to
purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel,
and are saving about $500.00 per fill up.
Best regards
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Bob,
Isn't this what was found to be responsible for a lot of the troubles
T-34's experienced with catastrophic airframe failures when flying with
the pretend fighter pilot schools? Not necessarily pulling too many G's,
but maneuvering while pulling some.
I seem to remember some well written stuff written about this effect a
couple years ago. Deakin maybe?
Maybe I'm making this one up, but I thought one of our fighters was
having some of the same problem, leading to fatigue in the structure.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors
Darn, failure to proofread correctly!!
Should be: Yank, then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload, then
bank!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:48:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Morning Nico,
That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron
is input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That
is why it rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable
G load, the additional load that is impressed by the application of
aileron can easily exceed the design limit which is only calculated for
the straight ahead no roll condition.
I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or:
Unload then yank!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Good Afternoon Steve,
Your memory is just the same as mine.
When I was briefed before flying the T-38 at Edwards, they told us the same
thing. Before you rack it over, unload the wing. You could yank and you
could bank, but not both at the same time!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/6/2008 1:35:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
steve2@sover.net writes:
Bob,
Isn't this what was found to be responsible for a lot of the troubles T-34's
experienced with catastrophic airframe failures when flying with the pretend
fighter pilot schools? Not necessarily pulling too many G's, but maneuvering
while pulling some.
I seem to remember some well written stuff written about this effect a
couple years ago. Deakin maybe?
Maybe I'm making this one up, but I thought one of our fighters was having
some of the same problem, leading to fatigue in the structure.
Steve
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
Hi Barry,
Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about
how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a
mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice
based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written
the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual some
680Fp models had double side windows.
Regards,
Moe
From: Barry Collman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question
regarding the glass in your rear door window.
Here's what he has to say:
"Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window
being found on a Model 689F(P).
As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged
the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the
windows being energized by outside vibrations.
This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture,
bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air
pressure.
The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure.
This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would
measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height.
[Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to
match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and
Z -28.0.]
After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it
is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain
the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would
have been very few and far between.
If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is
possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass
on the existing 500S tooling.
Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with
clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through
the pane to contend with.
This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be
transferred to the replacement glass.
[It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a
stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows
would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]"
Hopefully, that will be the reason.
It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have
the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin
windows.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of
the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I
replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8
AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got
so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit
you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes
sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most.
Three questions for you and/or our fellow members:
1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape,
while all other side windows are perfectly flat?
2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander?
3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is
anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some
of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving
about $500.00 per fill up.
Best regards
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Flight Load Factors |
I have double pane windows in my straight 500.
Roland Gilliam
From: barry.collman@air-britain.co.ukTo: commander-list@matronics.comSubjec
t: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load FactorsDate: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:29:26 +0
100
Hi Moe,
I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows.
I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork that i
s in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples.
I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my database.
Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how
to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a menti
on about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on
45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year be
fore my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had
double side windows.
Regards,
Moe
From: Barry Collman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question rega
rding the glass in your rear door window.
Here's what he has to say:
"Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being f
ound on a Model 689F(P).
As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the c
abin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows be
ing energized by outside vibrations.
This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bring
ing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure.
The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure.
This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measur
e about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height.
[Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match t
he side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and
Z -28.0.]
After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is
doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the
680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have b
een very few and far between.
If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible
that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the exis
ting 500S tooling.
Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips
and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pan
e to contend with.
This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transfer
red to the replacement glass.
[It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger
"stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be fo
rmed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]"
Hopefully, that will be the reason.
It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the s
ame glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the m
oney on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied t
hat I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewh
ere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM
was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start a
t 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the
good times roll" earlier than most.
Three questions for you and/or our fellow members:
1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while al
l other side windows are perfectly flat?
2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander?
3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyo
ne here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the
local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00
per fill up.
Best regards
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh
_mobile_052008
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Load Factors |
I had them in my 560A as well
2764B
Craig
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636@hotmail.com>
To:<commander-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
I have double pane windows in my straight 500.
Roland Gilliam
----------------
From: barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk
Hi Moe,
I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did= indeed have double windows.
I seem to recall this item being on the = Work Release Order paperwork that is
in the Warranty Files for quite a numb= er of examples.
I cannot check that though, as it's some= thing I don't track in my database.
Presumably, it was to help reduce the no= ise levels.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
= From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspis
tons@hotmail.com>
cs.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight = Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Thank you very much for this. = The manual goes into great detail about how to
make new side windows and in= stall them, however, there is nary a mention about
the window contour= . As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years
of experience= , whereas the manual was actually written the year before my plane
was even= built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side
windows.
Regards,
Moe
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry
.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM
r-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has= just replied to your question regarding
the glass in your rear door window= .
Here's what he has to say:
"Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window bei= ng found
on a Model 689F(P).
As part of a laterinterior&n= bsp;noise reduction effort weslightly bulged the
cabin windows to red= uce the 'drum head' effectresulting fromthe windowsbeing&=
nbsp;energizedby outside vibrations.
This was done byplacing the = plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing
it toforming temper= ature andinflating it slightly with air pressure.
The formed pane was then cooled&nb= sp;while still under pressure.
This resulting outward bulge in th= e center of the windowpaneswould measure about
1/2to 3/4 of an inch in height.
[Of course the edges of the pane w= ere restrained in a flatplane to match the
side of the fuselage which= was flat between Z -10.0 and
Z -28.0.]
After the 680FPwas out of producti= on for aprescribed period of time it is doubtful
thatthe Spares= Department would havehad the factory retainthe 680FP prod=
uction window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very f=
ew and far between.
If a spares order was received for a 680= FP cabin door window it is possible that
the order was filled by fabricatin= g and forming the glass on the existing
500S tooling.
Since the 500S was unpressurized, the wi= ndows were held in place with clips and
there would have beenno perip= heralscrew hole pattern through the pane to
contend with.
This would allow the existing hole patte= rn in the 680FP door to be transferred
to the replacement glass.
[It is likely that the 680FP windows wou= ld have been formed from a stronger "stretched"
type acrylic sheet material= while the 500S windows would be formed
fromthe standard"as cas= t" acrylic sheet.]"
Hopefully, that will be the reason.
It will be interesting to learn whether any other= 680F(P) owners have the same
glass in their door window, or indeed, in any= other cabin windows.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message= -----
= From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspis
tons@hotmail.com>
cs.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM=
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight = Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I i= dolized told me that all of the money
on the west coast was made between 6 = and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that
I only wanted half of the money, = so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around
the turn of the centu= ry the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the
break even time, and to= squeeze a meager profit you had to start at5 AM. Now
retired, = getting up at 5 really makes sense,so I can "let the good times roll"=
earlier than most.
Three questions for you and/or our fellow = members:
1. Why does the rear door window on = my plane have a convex shape, while all other
side windows are perfectly fl= at?
2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh i= n their Commander?
3. Now thata full bag of= 100LL for aCommander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here
in the southwe= st going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy
Truckers a= re, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill
up.
Best regards
Moe
N680RR
680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma= tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/= c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma= tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/= c " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
----------------
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Flight Load Factors |
My 500A I think has double pane and they are all bulged. I thought it was
just to give more head room.
Jim Addington
N444BD
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy
Gilliam
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:22 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
I have double pane windows in my straight 500.
Roland Gilliam
_____
From: barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows.
I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork that is
in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples.
I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my database.
Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how
to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a mention
about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45
years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year before
my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had
double side windows.
Regards,
Moe
From: Barry <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Collman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Moe,
My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question
regarding the glass in your rear door window.
Here's what he has to say:
"Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being
found on a Model 689F(P).
As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the
cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows
being energized by outside vibrations.
This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture,
bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air
pressure.
The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure.
This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measure
about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height.
[Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match
the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and
Z -28.0.]
After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is
doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the
680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have
been very few and far between.
If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible
that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the
existing 500S tooling.
Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips
and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pane
to contend with.
This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be
transferred to the replacement glass.
[It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger
"stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be
formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]"
Hopefully, that will be the reason.
It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the
same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors
Hi Barry,
Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the
money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied
that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM.
Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad
that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to
start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can
"let the good times roll" earlier than most.
Three questions for you and/or our fellow members:
1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all
other side windows are perfectly flat?
2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander?
3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is
anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of
the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about
$500.00 per fill up.
Best regards
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. Connect on the
go.
<http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_m
obile_052008>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|