Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:14 PM - THOSE WHO SERVED (yourtcfg@aol.com)
2. 08:02 PM - Re: THOSE WHO SERVED (nico css)
3. 08:13 PM - Re: [BULK] THOSE WHO SERVED (Brock Lorber)
4. 08:53 PM - Re: THOSE WHO SERVED (John Vormbaum)
5. 08:53 PM - Re: [BULK] THOSE WHO SERVED (John Vormbaum)
6. 10:00 PM - Re: THOSE WHO SERVED (Jim Addington)
7. 10:19 PM - Re: [BULK] THOSE WHO SERVED (Bud Williams)
8. 11:41 PM - Re: [BULK] THOSE WHO SERVED (nico css)
Message 1
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| Subject: | THOSE WHO SERVED |
lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are
serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes
and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to
do the same.? jb
Message 2
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| Subject: | THOSE WHO SERVED |
Amen. We will only be the home of the free as long as we are the home of the
brave. Did Dubya say that?
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:11 PM
Subject: Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those who have served and
are serving our great nation. I travel a lot on the airline delivering
airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you". I challenge all
of you to do the same. jb
_____
Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone
<http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-overvi
ew&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139> .
Message 3
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| Subject: | THOSE WHO SERVED |
You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your
accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist,
the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are
the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful
cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While
soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being,
be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human
wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War:
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme
excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's
resistance without fighting."
By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where
the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme
excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his
calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM
Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served
and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline
delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I
challenge all of you to do the same.? jb
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: THOSE WHO SERVED |
Jim,
Hear hear!
We have a friend in the 101st Airborne in Afghanistan. I routinely thank
every returning solder I see!
Happy Memorial Day,
/John
yourtcfg@aol.com wrote:
> lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those who have
> served and are serving our great nation. I travel a lot on the
> airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see
> "Thank you". I challenge all of you to do the same. jb
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone
> <http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-overview&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139>.
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: THOSE WHO SERVED |
Wow Brock, that's pretty deep....and well said.
/J
Brock Lorber wrote:
> You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant,
your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner
gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove,
each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the
riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at
least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the
cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War:
>
> "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme
excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
>
> By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer
and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as
you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure
of governments to achieve excellence.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg@aol.com
> Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
>
> lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and
are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes
and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you
to do the same.? jb
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | THOSE WHO SERVED |
It is a sure bet it was not B.O. or Hill.
Jim
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
Amen. We will only be the home of the free as long as we are the home of the
brave. Did Dubya say that?
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:11 PM
Subject: Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those who have served and
are serving our great nation. I travel a lot on the airline delivering
airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you". I challenge all
of you to do the same. jb
_____
Stay informed, get connected and more with
<http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-overvi
ew&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139> AOL on your phone.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 7
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| Subject: | THOSE WHO SERVED |
Mr Lorber,
Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone
has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs
a response.
Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's
attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art
of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia."
The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and
teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to
apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context
of the times in which it was "written."
Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State.
It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence
it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected."
War, not business/industry.
Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble
attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it
was written.
Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take
the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so
good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy
them.
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without
fighting.
Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next
best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order
is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all
is to besiege walled cities."
Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was
written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if
you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a
serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If
however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern
preparations for, and the conduct of, the war.
Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune
upon his army:--
(1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the
fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army.
(2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a
kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This
causes restlessness in the soldier's minds.
(3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through
ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This
shakes the confidence of the soldiers.
But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from
the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and
flinging victory away.
Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
(1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
(2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
(3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its
ranks.
(4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
(5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the
sovereign.
Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not
fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the
enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know
neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose
every battle.
No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a
nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose
to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights
of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those
merchants.
This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not
achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic
facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set
on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that
time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He
wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea
lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable
markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished
products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with
Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what
would eventually become the world's most powerful navy.
The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the
vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains
that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea,
and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of
pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other
parts of the world).
The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military.
The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic
and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth.
This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it
was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to
protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex
helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the
harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that
potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but
those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American
men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most
notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the
Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor
the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not
speaking fluent German.
Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan,
Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and
media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that
you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just
as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get
markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected.
You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day,
a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the
world's leading economy.
Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families,
their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to
provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper.
I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine.
Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one
last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you
choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say
it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on
Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by
Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the
very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this
country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our
wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your
military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military
that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it
is trained to do.
To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted
with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of
carrying it on."
It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new
country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish,
and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly
unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country.
Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your
accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the
owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true
heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN
COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors,
airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard
human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu
noted in The Art of War:
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without
fighting."
By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the
grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even
as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a
failure of governments to achieve excellence.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM
Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and
are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering
airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all
of you to do the same.? jb
Message 8
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| Subject: | THOSE WHO SERVED |
Wow, Bud. I was busy compiling a response, but I thought it best to delete
it. I'll keep this one instead. Thank you for your service, sir.
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Williams
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:17 PM
Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
--> <rambud@windstream.net>
Mr Lorber,
Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone
has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs
a response.
Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's
attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art
of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia."
The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and
teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to
apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context
of the times in which it was "written."
Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State.
It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence
it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected."
War, not business/industry.
Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble
attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it
was written.
Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take
the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so
good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy
them.
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without
fighting.
Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next
best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order
is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all
is to besiege walled cities."
Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was
written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if
you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a
serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If
however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern
preparations for, and the conduct of, the war.
Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune
upon his army:--
(1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the
fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army.
(2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a
kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This
causes restlessness in the soldier's minds.
(3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through
ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This
shakes the confidence of the soldiers.
But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from
the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and
flinging victory away.
Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
(1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
(2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
(3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its
ranks.
(4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
(5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the
sovereign.
Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not
fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the
enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know
neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose
every battle.
No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a
nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose
to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights
of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those
merchants.
This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not
achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic
facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set
on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that
time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He
wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea
lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable
markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished
products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with
Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what
would eventually become the world's most powerful navy.
The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the
vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains
that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea,
and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of
pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other
parts of the world).
The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military.
The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic
and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth.
This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it
was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to
protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex
helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the
harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that
potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but
those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American
men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most
notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the
Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor
the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not
speaking fluent German.
Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan,
Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and
media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that
you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just
as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get
markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected.
You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day,
a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the
world's leading economy.
Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families,
their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to
provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper.
I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine.
Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one
last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you
choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say
it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on
Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by
Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the
very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this
country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our
wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your
military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military
that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it
is trained to do.
To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted
with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of
carrying it on."
It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new
country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish,
and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly
unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country.
Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your
accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the
owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true
heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN
COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors,
airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard
human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu
noted in The Art of War:
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without
fighting."
By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the
grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even
as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a
failure of governments to achieve excellence.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM
Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED
lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and
are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering
airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all
of you to do the same.? jb
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