Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (craigk391@sbcglobal.net)
2. 02:34 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Peter Bichier)
3. 06:20 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Robert S. Randazzo)
4. 07:48 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (nico css)
5. 11:40 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 12:36 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (nico css)
7. 01:15 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (willis robison)
8. 03:39 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 03:49 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 03:57 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Chris)
11. 04:10 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (willis robison)
12. 04:11 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Don Barry Home)
13. 04:24 PM - Recip vs. turbine (Don)
14. 04:51 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (nico css)
15. 04:54 PM - Re: Recip vs. turbine (nico css)
16. 05:05 PM - AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (peter bichier)
17. 05:14 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
18. 06:58 PM - Re: Recip vs. turbine (willis robison)
19. 09:04 PM - Wing lost in flight (Tom Fisher)
20. 10:03 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (yourtcfg@aol.com)
21. 11:18 PM - Re: Wing lost in flight (nico css)
22. 11:28 PM - Orenda Engine Market (Keith S. Gordon)
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
VGhlIFNUQydzIHdlcmUgcGlja2VkIHVwIGJ5IGEgZ3V5IGluIEZMLiBUaGUgbGluayBzdGlsbCB3
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Dick MacCoon's old site is still available (actually the domain is for sale)
http://www.mrrpm.com/
it still has a video on the "promissing" (2002) new aluminum V8 water cooled engines
which were supposed to be cheaper and fuel efficient...
RPM Commander LLC is still in business and selling a couple of 560Fs
http://www.rpmcommander.com/
To reach: RPM COMMANDER LLC (For STC services)
c/o Paul Gendron
1401 N. Riverside Drive Suite 607
Pompano Beach, FLorida, USA 33062
--------
560 Dreamer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210930#210930
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Subject: | AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Don-
The engine technology was picked up by an outfit called Trace Engines.
(www.traceengines.com)
They had a stand set up at the races this year at Reno. We stopped by to
chat with them- and they brought around a fellow who has purchased the
original Orenda certification test airplane. He has a second outfit that he
explained was working to STC the 685 with these engines mounted. He claimed
that they were "months away from an STC" to hang the V8s on 685s..
That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and
according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some
time..
Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on
that project. ;-)
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Barry
Home
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
MR. RPM is out of business?? I wonder whatever happened to that AC they were
playing around with the water-cooled Orenda engines.
Don
Houston TX
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
I do not yet have engine monitors but they are on the wish list.
Well he was out of the business and already sold the STC and as far as I was
concerned I was happy to receive the lines from him even if they had to be
tweaked by an expensive AME who did in fact anneal the welds, good point.
Tom.
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Well, Next time you fly, once youve leaned for cruise, check the EGTs for
those cylilnders that had the new lines welded. If they are running within
a few degrees of the others, then he did a good job welding. SS lines with
anything less than 130 thou. diam are extremely hard to weld without causing
an "orifice" at the weldsite.
Also, I doubt that he annealed the new weld, which will make the heat
affected zone more brittle than the rest. Ask him how he treated the weld.
(a smoky acetylene torch for 2 minutes would be sufficient.
Bottom line, Mr.RPM should have is axxx chewed for sending you lousy parts.
You shouldnt have to do his Acceptance test procedures on your AC.
wer
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> wrote:
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Well, I am that much more informed, thanks for the info.
Tom
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Thanks Tom.
Ive designed a few fuel systems and his symptoms are typical of a
flowdivider/lines on the hot side of an engine. (side downstream of an air
cooled engine) And are more prevalent with Lines that have a lot of volume.
Im unfamiliar with Commanders, but from the looks of the cowl inlets on some
of them, it appears the cooling airflow is from bottom to top and then out.
If not then there is a big air-dam that deflects cool air to the top of the
engine and then down. Either way, cooling appears greatly reduced during
climbout unless there are some big cown-vents downstream.
As Ive seen it.
1. larger dia. lines have a higher vapor/liquid ratio during operation, and
on shut down, cook-off the remaining fuel in the FDV. they are better,
however on climbout as there is less pressure losses and heat absorbed.
Modern FDV's have a purge valve that dumps fuel back to the inlet of the
pump on shutdown. this immediately drops the pressure at the nozzles to
zero...
2. smaller lines have shorter fill times, quicker starts but are susceptible
to vapor lock because they absorb heat faster. At higher flowrates (rich)
the delta-P loss in these lines may result in a higher vapor/liquid rato
and thus a poorer spray patter at the nozzle. This is more of an issue on
climbout on engines with poor cooling for whatever reason (like closed
cowlvents, or just reduced airspeed (airflow)). Modern fuellines in these
situations are insulated (just like grandpas truck).
3. for systems with high flowrates (~100 pph or more) the different lengths
of fuel lines from the FDV to each nozzle becomes important. there are
different pressure losses in each leg. (which makes GAMI's all the more
important. ) If you want to save yourself the recurring cost of Gami
injectors...get your flow divider valve balanced with your set of nozzles.
Just some thoughts.
wer
former Pratt-Whitney and Ham-STD
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> wrote:
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
I got a new set from Mr.RPM himself so I assume they were of the same inside
diameter and yes his lines leaked and had to be welded in two places. I just
replaced the lines from the flow divider to the cylinders.
Tom.
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com> robison
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Tom, did you replace the lines with ones of the same Inside diameter? Did
you replace those on both sides of the flow divider (spider), and the fuel
servo?
wer
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> wrote:
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
I had the same surging problem on mine.
I replaced all the upper deck lines with new stainless steel lines, the new
lines also had to be welded in two places, this resolved the surging
problem.
Tom
C-GISS
680FLP (Mr.RPM)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Mansfeld" <hcourier@cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
<hcourier@cox.net>
>
> Am having a problem with the left engine on the 680 FLP I fly (Mr. RPM
> Conversion). Takeoff is fine but on climb out the left engine RPM is
> unsteady, somewhat like a prop that won't stabilize. Here's some
info:
>
> 1. The problem seems to occur primarily during climb as I bring the
> turbos up (I've got manual turbos)
> 2. The fluctuation is random as to when it occurs and how much the RPM
> fluctuates...probably 10-20 RPM. Sometimes it's noticeable as
the
> aircraft yaws, sometimes it's not noticeable.
> 3. Sometimes it seems that leaning the mixture helps a bit but not
> always
> 4. I've also noticed that sometimes when the problem has occured on a
> flight that on shutdown of the engine after landing, it doesn't
want
> to
> stop running with the mixture pulled all the way to lean/idle-cutoff.
> 5. Sometimes I the lean the mixture during the 1500 RPM ground check
> and the RPM goes up 50 RPM or so, sometimes it doesn't
> 6. Once I level off the problem seems to disappear or be almost
> un-noticeable. Although tonight I applied full rich mixture while in
> level
> flight at 4,500' and I could notice a slight RPM fluctuation if I
> paid close
> attention.
> 7. Fuel pressure is normal and turning the fuel pump on or off has no
> affect on the engine
>
> My thoughts:
>
> 1. I think the problem is in some fuel metering mechanism in the
> carburetor that is unsteady
> 2. At one point I thought there might be a leak in the turbo pressure
> lines causing a fluctuation in turbo air to the engine
> 3. Now, with the engine shut down problem (doesn't happen every time)
> I think there is a link between the turbo air (as I bring it up on
> climb)
> and fuel metering. They are probably interrelated.
>
> I've received help from many of you out there before. Has anyone had
this
> type problem occur and if so what might be the problem?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ray Mansfield
> N91ES
> 850-217-5185
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Well I do hope that they get some traction with this. Adams shutting down,
Eclipse not going anywhere fast, are all bad news for GA. A success story
would be a nice change. I, for one, would be very hesitant to load up a 685
with family and launch them with Orendas into the night over the Rockies but
their STC with the ag planes do show that it can be a reliable powerplant.
Having a couple of successful races under their belt can do wonders.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S.
Randazzo
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:18 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Don-
The engine technology was picked up by an outfit called Trace Engines.
(www.traceengines.com)
They had a stand set up at the races this year at Reno. We stopped by to
chat with them- and they brought around a fellow who has purchased the
original Orenda certification test airplane. He has a second outfit that he
explained was working to STC the 685 with these engines mounted. He claimed
that they were "months away from an STC" to hang the V8s on 685s..
That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and
according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some
time..
Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on
that project. ;-)
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Barry
Home
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
MR. RPM is out of business?? I wonder whatever happened to that AC they were
playing around with the water-cooled Orenda engines.
Don
Houston TX
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
I do not yet have engine monitors but they are on the wish list.
Well he was out of the business and already sold the STC and as far as I was
concerned I was happy to receive the lines from him even if they had to be
tweaked by an expensive AME who did in fact anneal the welds, good point.
Tom.
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Well, Next time you fly, once youve leaned for cruise, check the EGTs for
those cylilnders that had the new lines welded. If they are running within
a few degrees of the others, then he did a good job welding. SS lines with
anything less than 130 thou. diam are extremely hard to weld without causing
an "orifice" at the weldsite.
Also, I doubt that he annealed the new weld, which will make the heat
affected zone more brittle than the rest. Ask him how he treated the weld.
(a smoky acetylene torch for 2 minutes would be sufficient.
Bottom line, Mr.RPM should have is axxx chewed for sending you lousy parts.
You shouldnt have to do his Acceptance test procedures on your AC.
wer
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> wrote:
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Well, I am that much more informed, thanks for the info.
Tom
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Thanks Tom.
Ive designed a few fuel systems and his symptoms are typical of a
flowdivider/lines on the hot side of an engine. (side downstream of an air
cooled engine) And are more prevalent with Lines that have a lot of volume.
Im unfamiliar with Commanders, but from the looks of the cowl inlets on some
of them, it appears the cooling airflow is from bottom to top and then out.
If not then there is a big air-dam that deflects cool air to the top of the
engine and then down. Either way, cooling appears greatly reduced during
climbout unless there are some big cown-vents downstream.
As Ive seen it.
1. larger dia. lines have a higher vapor/liquid ratio during operation, and
on shut down, cook-off the remaining fuel in the FDV. they are better,
however on climbout as there is less pressure losses and heat absorbed.
Modern FDV's have a purge valve that dumps fuel back to the inlet of the
pump on shutdown. this immediately drops the pressure at the nozzles to
zero...
2. smaller lines have shorter fill times, quicker starts but are susceptible
to vapor lock because they absorb heat faster. At higher flowrates (rich)
the delta-P loss in these lines may result in a higher vapor/liquid rato
and thus a poorer spray patter at the nozzle. This is more of an issue on
climbout on engines with poor cooling for whatever reason (like closed
cowlvents, or just reduced airspeed (airflow)). Modern fuellines in these
situations are insulated (just like grandpas truck).
3. for systems with high flowrates (~100 pph or more) the different lengths
of fuel lines from the FDV to each nozzle becomes important. there are
different pressure losses in each leg. (which makes GAMI's all the more
important. ) If you want to save yourself the recurring cost of Gami
injectors...get your flow divider valve balanced with your set of nozzles.
Just some thoughts.
wer
former Pratt-Whitney and Ham-STD
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> wrote:
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
I got a new set from Mr.RPM himself so I assume they were of the same inside
diameter and yes his lines leaked and had to be welded in two places. I just
replaced the lines from the flow divider to the cylinders.
Tom.
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Tom, did you replace the lines with ones of the same Inside diameter? Did
you replace those on both sides of the flow divider (spider), and the fuel
servo?
wer
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> wrote:
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
I had the same surging problem on mine.
I replaced all the upper deck lines with new stainless steel lines, the new
lines also had to be welded in two places, this resolved the surging
problem.
Tom
C-GISS
680FLP (Mr.RPM)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Mansfeld" <hcourier@cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
<hcourier@cox.net>
>
> Am having a problem with the left engine on the 680 FLP I fly (Mr. RPM
> Conversion). Takeoff is fine but on climb out the left engine RPM is
> unsteady, somewhat like a prop that won't stabilize. Here's some
info:
>
> 1. The problem seems to occur primarily during climb as I bring the
> turbos up (I've got manual turbos)
> 2. The fluctuation is random as to when it occurs and how much the RPM
> fluctuates...probably 10-20 RPM. Sometimes it's noticeable as
the
> aircraft yaws, sometimes it's not noticeable.
> 3. Sometimes it seems that leaning the mixture helps a bit but not
> always
> 4. I've also noticed that sometimes when the problem has occured on a
> flight that on shutdown of the engine after landing, it doesn't
want
> to
> stop running with the mixture pulled all the way to lean/idle-cutoff.
> 5. Sometimes I the lean the mixture during the 1500 RPM ground check
> and the RPM goes up 50 RPM or so, sometimes it doesn't
> 6. Once I level off the problem seems to disappear or be almost
> un-noticeable. Although tonight I applied full rich mixture while in
> level
> flight at 4,500' and I could notice a slight RPM fluctuation if I
> paid close
> attention.
> 7. Fuel pressure is normal and turning the fuel pump on or off has no
> affect on the engine
>
> My thoughts:
>
> 1. I think the problem is in some fuel metering mechanism in the
> carburetor that is unsteady
> 2. At one point I thought there might be a leak in the turbo pressure
> lines causing a fluctuation in turbo air to the engine
> 3. Now, with the engine shut down problem (doesn't happen every time)
> I think there is a link between the turbo air (as I bring it up on
> climb)
> and fuel metering. They are probably interrelated.
>
> I've received help from many of you out there before. Has anyone had
this
> type problem occur and if so what might be the problem?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ray Mansfield
> N91ES
> 850-217-5185
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Good Afternoon Robert,
I have a friend who was involved as a mechanic with that project. He said it
was a beautiful running engine and that everything worked just as they had
expected it would.
Unfortunately, the interest in converting from a Turbine to a piston was
just not there.
I asked many of my King Air driver friends what they thought. Everyone of
them said there was no way they would ever go back to flying a piston. I got the
impression that it was an ego thing. They had no interest at all in the
economy or performance gains that might be achieved. They just wanted to arrive
in a turbine powered flying machine!
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:22:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes:
That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and
according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some
time..
Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on
that project. ;-)
Robert S. Randazzo
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
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Subject: | AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Well, Old Bob, there is the safety of having much less moving parts in a
turbine, too. And the moving parts in a turbine just spin, they don't
accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate
thousands of times a minute either. Seems to me they have my vote on that.
However, going from an ageing Lycoming or Continental to an Orenda would be
a favorite for me. Provided they can last and win some races and endurance
rallies to increase their knowledge and capabilities of the engines.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Good Afternoon Robert,
I have a friend who was involved as a mechanic with that project. He said it
was a beautiful running engine and that everything worked just as they had
expected it would.
Unfortunately, the interest in converting from a Turbine to a piston was
just not there.
I asked many of my King Air driver friends what they thought. Everyone of
them said there was no way they would ever go back to flying a piston. I got
the impression that it was an ego thing. They had no interest at all in the
economy or performance gains that might be achieved. They just wanted to
arrive in a turbine powered flying machine!
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:22:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes:
That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and
according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some
time..
Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on
that project. ;-)
Robert S. Randazzo
_____
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check
<http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001> out
Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!
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Subject: | AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to
Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable
.- The exception to this was the market shift from turbo-props to light j
ets.- None of the operators wanted to trade the efficiency of thier turbo
props for the high initial and recurring costs of operating twin jets.-
But, given the choice, people (not just pilots) loved flying in Jets!- Wh
o cares if the cost of travel went up 20%.- You no doubt have noticed tha
t all the regionals (in the black) are running Props again.-
-
If you have an engine that has a TBO of 3500 to 5400 hrs, it could be made
by Briggs and Stratton and would still find a home.- The pilot is the las
t opinion heard.
-
Personally, I prefer a nice Big-Displacement, Geared, slow turning Piston.
-(560Fis my favorite)-why?- Efficiency.- There isn't a law that say
s you have to fly full throttle.- Use your propeller performance curve an
d POH-to tell you- your best cruise altitude and airspeed, and trim for
that.- Use MRCP to get in and out effectively and then rein-in your ego.
- There's nothing sexy about straight and level flight.
-
Hoover was cool....but he didnt pay for the plane or the gas.
-
wer
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> wrote:
From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Well, Old Bob, there is the safety of having much less moving parts in a tu
rbine, too. And the moving parts in a turbine just spin, they don't accelle
rate, stop, turn around, accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate thousa
nds of times a minute either. Seems to me they have my vote on that. Howeve
r, going from an ageing Lycoming or Continental to an Orenda would be a fav
orite for me. Provided they can last and win some races and endurance ralli
es to increase their knowledge and capabilities of the engines.
-
Nico
-
-
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Good Afternoon Robert,
-
I have a friend who was involved as a mechanic with that project. He said i
t was a beautiful running engine and that everything worked just as they ha
d expected it would.
-
Unfortunately, the interest in converting from a Turbine to a piston was ju
st not there.
-
I asked many of my King Air driver friends what they thought. Everyone of t
hem said there was no way they would ever go back to flying a piston. I got
the impression that it was an ego thing. They had no interest at all in th
e economy or performance gains that might be achieved. They just wanted to
arrive in a turbine powered flying machine!
-
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
-
In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:22:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rsrandazz
o@precisionmanuals.com writes:
-
That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX an
d according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't- been flying in som
e time..
-
Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on
that project.- ;-)
-
Robert S. Randazzo
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deal
s!
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
=0A=0A=0A
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Good Evening Nico,
That is my feeling as well, but it just didn't seem to appeal to as many
folks as the developer had hoped. The big market was expected to be older
Turbine Commanders and King Airs. Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even
though the numbers worked out quite favorably.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 10/29/2008 2:37:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Well, Old Bob, there is the safety of having much less moving parts in a
turbine, too. And the moving parts in a turbine just spin, they don't
accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate thousands
of times a minute either. Seems to me they have my vote on that. However,
going from an ageing Lycoming or Continental to an Orenda would be a favorite
for
me. Provided they can last and win some races and endurance rallies to
increase their knowledge and capabilities of the engines.
Nico
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Good Afternoon wer,
It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was
the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego
possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses still
prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off!
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
drwer2@yahoo.com writes:
While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to
Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even though the numbers
> worked out quite favorably.
Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything,
but I have a little different perspective on this one. I suspect that
if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn
few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated
it as an option. Since (to the best of my knowledge), no
STC/certification was ever achieved for those airplanes ,no significant
operating history exists, and no advertising was ever done in places
where corp owners would have seen it, I don't think the product ever mad
it out of the shadows. I also don't think that the engine would have
ever gained much momentum without some significant operational
experience. Corporate owners don't seem to be the type to pounce on a
major unproven powerplant option to me. Nico's point that a few Reno
win's would help put them on the map is valid, but they'd need a good
test fleet building hours to make it attractive to the target market.
I remember hearing that there were some significant problems with the
Commander test vehicle, but don't remember the specifics. Anyone else
know more than I do?
cheers,
Chris
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|
Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
EPI, Inc. designed and developed the engine mounting and structural integri
ty testing had a lot to do with the demise of the project.- Here is a lin
k to thier comments on the engine, etc.
-
http://www.epi-eng.com/aircraft_engine_conversions/additional_weight_consid
erations.htm#examples
-
willis Robison
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Chris <cschuerm@cox.net> wrote:
From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even though the numbers
> worked out quite favorably.
Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything,
but I have a little different perspective on this one. I suspect that
if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn
few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated
it as an option. Since (to the best of my knowledge), no
STC/certification was ever achieved for those airplanes ,no significant
operating history exists, and no advertising was ever done in places
where corp owners would have seen it, I don't think the product ever mad
it out of the shadows. I also don't think that the engine would have
ever gained much momentum without some significant operational
experience. Corporate owners don't seem to be the type to pounce on a
major unproven powerplant option to me. Nico's point that a few Reno
win's would help put them on the map is valid, but they'd need a good
test fleet building hours to make it attractive to the target market.
I remember hearing that there were some significant problems with the
Commander test vehicle, but don't remember the specifics. Anyone else
know more than I do?
cheers,
Chris
=0A=0A=0A
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|
Subject: | AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
That's an excellent point. I spoke to one of my business friend's who
happens to be a Texas state senator. Apparently the folks at Trace have some
connections with the state gov't here. They (Texas) must have a "herd" of
King Airs - there's a study in progress looking at helping out on the STC
approval and doing conversions on the state planes. They said the numbers
he's seen on this are "compelling", and they like spending their $$$ within
the state. How knows? Maybe this will end up going somewhere?
Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more quiet than an
air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that?
Don
Houston ,TX
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Good Afternoon wer,
It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was
the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego
possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses
still prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off!
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
drwer2@yahoo.com writes:
While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to
Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable.
_____
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel
Deals!
Message 13
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|
Subject: | Recip vs. turbine |
"While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with
transitioning to Turbines, "
I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo,
but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass
turbojet. They just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of
power, push it to the stops and keep it there, it may redline and need
changed on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger for the
engine change. Seems like I remember being told something like, 'the
last 10% of the throttle movement produces 90% of the power', do know,
in reverse the difference between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow
covered short runway, about a thousand feet on a DC-9, at max gross.
I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they
encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a
go around, airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The engines were
firewalled and all indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless
to say they survived, but computer readout showed the engines produced
almost 100,000 lbs thrust, double the rating. Don't know why the fuel
controls let them get this high, maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The
engines were borascoped and not even changed. Try that with a recip
engine!
Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have several
thousand hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an
emergency, a few minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I
can say with recips. A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind.
I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on
board, but I have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take
much more abuse, and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on
ticking'.
Don
Message 14
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Subject: | AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Well, the video of the test Commander certainly sounds as if it is a quiet
ship. Didn't one of the guys on the list fly the test model for the TV spot?
Bill Lieff? I cannot recall exactly.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Barry
Home
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
That's an excellent point. I spoke to one of my business friend's who
happens to be a Texas state senator. Apparently the folks at Trace have some
connections with the state gov't here. They (Texas) must have a "herd" of
King Airs - there's a study in progress looking at helping out on the STC
approval and doing conversions on the state planes. They said the numbers
he's seen on this are "compelling", and they like spending their $$$ within
the state. How knows? Maybe this will end up going somewhere?
Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more quiet than an
air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that?
Don
Houston ,TX
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Good Afternoon wer,
It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was
the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego
possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses
still prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off!
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
drwer2@yahoo.com writes:
While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to
Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable.
_____
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel
Deals!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 15
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Subject: | Recip vs. turbine |
Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
"While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to
Turbines, "
I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am
ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet. They
just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the
stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground but
it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change. Seems like I
remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle movement
produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference between 80%
and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousand
feet on a DC-9, at max gross.
I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a
very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around,
airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The engines were firewalled and all
indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless to say they survived,
but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust,
double the rating. Don't know why the fuel controls let them get this high,
maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The engines were borascoped and not even
changed. Try that with a recip engine!
Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have several thousand
hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few
minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recips.
A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind.
I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I
have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse,
and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'.
Don
Message 16
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Subject: | AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:09 PM, Don Barry Home wrote:
> Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more
> quiet than an air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that?
>
if you go to MrRPM's old site:
http://www.mrrpm.com/
and click "here" to see & hear the 1200 hp Commander Flight, the
video still works!
granted the commentator and music and hoop la spoils it but you can
still notice how quiet it is, they taxi and also have a clip of a
pass over.
but if that commander is not flying anymore...
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
Good Evening Chris,
Well, I do not find that I am disagreeing with you!<G>
What I stated was that when I asked my King Air and Turbine Commander owner
friends what they thought of the Orenda conversion, the universal answer was
that there was no way they would trade their turbines for a hopped up Chevy
design even if it did perform better and had lower fuel burn. I did not find a
single owner who was interested in getting the conversion. I am not sure if
it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the
Turbine owners I knew would not buy it!
Admittedly, mine was a small and probably not significant sample, but I was
surprised at the resistance I found.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 10/29/2008 5:57:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
cschuerm@cox.net writes:
Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything,
but I have a little different perspective on this one. I suspect that
if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn
few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated
it as an option.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 18
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|
Subject: | Recip vs. turbine |
Modern turbine engines on FADECs, set to-emergency power, the control loo
p eliminates all but the EGT probes(TiT).- So the engines would produce a
s much power as the turbine section could handle, they would be VERY HOT in
deed.- No Inlet control, no torque control....nada.- As the Turbine inl
et temp maxed out, then the control would ramp back the fuel servos.- In
the meantime, you would get a ridiculous amount of power.
-
At least thats how its done on PWC and GE engines.- I dont know about RR
or BMW but Id guess the control laws are similar.
-
wer
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> wrote:
From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
-
-
"While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning t
o Turbines, "
-
I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am
ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet.- The
y just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to
the stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground
but it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change.- Seems like
I remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle moveme
nt produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference-between
80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousa
nd feet on a DC-9, at max gross.
-
I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a
very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around,-ai
rspeed dropped well below 100 knots.- The engines were firewalled and all
indicator were pegged-beyond the red line.- Needless to say they survi
ved, but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs th
rust, double the rating.- Don't know why the fuel controls let them get t
his high, maybe the low airspeed, not sure.- The engines were borascoped
and not even changed.- Try that with a recip engine!
-
Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have-several thousand
hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few
minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recip
s.- A certain Turbo compounded-R-3350 comes to mind.
-
I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I
have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse,
and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'.
-
Don
-
-
-
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
=0A=0A=0A
Message 19
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Subject: | Wing lost in flight |
This is an amazing YOU TUBE video.
Notlandung: Der beste Pilot ever! | chilloutzone.de - free games and
free fun
Tom
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
Modern turbine engines on FADECs, set to emergency power, the
control loop eliminates all but the EGT probes(TiT). So the engines
would produce as much power as the turbine section could handle, they
would be VERY HOT indeed. No Inlet control, no torque control....nada.
As the Turbine inlet temp maxed out, then the control would ramp back
the fuel servos. In the meantime, you would get a ridiculous amount of
power.
At least thats how its done on PWC and GE engines. I dont know
about RR or BMW but Id guess the control laws are similar.
wer
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> wrote:
From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:51 PM
Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
"While there may be a certain amount of ego associated
with transitioning to Turbines, "
I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip
or turbo, but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high
bypass turbojet. They just hang together and produce power, lots and
lots of power, push it to the stops and keep it there, it may redline
and need changed on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger
for the engine change. Seems like I remember being told something like,
'the last 10% of the throttle movement produces 90% of the power', do
know, in reverse the difference between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a
snow covered short runway, about a thousand feet on a DC-9, at max
gross.
I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines
when they encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree
pitch-up on a go around, airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The
engines were firewalled and all indicator were pegged beyond the red
line. Needless to say they survived, but computer readout showed the
engines produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust, double the rating. Don't
know why the fuel controls let them get this high, maybe the low
airspeed, not sure. The engines were borascoped and not even changed.
Try that with a recip engine!
Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I
have several thousand hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or
had an emergency, a few minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more
than I can say with recips. A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to
mind.
I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because
I am on board, but I have always felt, turbines especially turbojets
will take much more abuse, and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps
on ticking'.
Don
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
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Message 20
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Subject: | Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation |
That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not
intended to compete with turbines.? They were replacements for the recip fleet.?
The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander..? They
were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340.? jb
I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression
was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it!
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
Good Evening Chris,
?
Well, I do not find that I am disagreeing with you!<G>
?
What I stated was that when I asked my King Air and Turbine Commander owner friends
what they thought of the Orenda conversion, the universal answer was that
there was no way they would trade their turbines for a hopped up Chevy design
even if it did perform better and had lower fuel burn. I did not find a single
owner who was interested in getting the conversion. I am not sure if it would
have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine
owners I knew would not buy it!
?
Admittedly, mine was a small and probably not significant sample, but I was surprised
at the resistance I found.
?
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
?
In a message dated 10/29/2008 5:57:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@cox.net
writes:
Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything,
but I have a little different perspective on this one.? I suspect that
if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn
few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated
it as an option.
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!
Message 21
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Subject: | Wing lost in flight |
I saw a model plane do that. That took guts and a clear head. I bet he
needed new underwear after that.
Great stuff, Tom.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:03 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Wing lost in flight
This is an amazing YOU TUBE video.
<http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html> Notlandung: Der beste
Pilot ever! | chilloutzone.de - free games and free fun
Tom
C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
Modern turbine engines on FADECs, set to emergency power, the control loop
eliminates all but the EGT probes(TiT). So the engines would produce as
much power as the turbine section could handle, they would be VERY HOT
indeed. No Inlet control, no torque control....nada. As the Turbine inlet
temp maxed out, then the control would ramp back the fuel servos. In the
meantime, you would get a ridiculous amount of power.
At least thats how its done on PWC and GE engines. I dont know about RR or
BMW but Id guess the control laws are similar.
wer
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> wrote:
From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine
"While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to
Turbines, "
I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am
ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet. They
just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the
stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground but
it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change. Seems like I
remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle movement
produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference between 80%
and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousand
feet on a DC-9, at max gross.
I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a
very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around,
airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The engines were firewalled and all
indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless to say they survived,
but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust,
double the rating. Don't know why the fuel controls let them get this high,
maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The engines were borascoped and not even
changed. Try that with a recip engine!
Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have several thousand
hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few
minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recips.
A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind.
I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I
have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse,
and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'.
Don
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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3D=========================3
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Message 22
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Subject: | Orenda Engine Market |
That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not
intended to compete with turbines.? They were replacements for the recip fleet.?
The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander..? They
were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340.? jb
I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression
was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it!
Yes, but ...
While Mr. RPM was making headway with the Commander 685 installation, the major
launch customer was Stevens Beechcraft who was going to re-engine the KingAir
90 fleet.??? The KingAir installation suffered oil foaming and Mr. RPM was able
to solve the problem on his Commander before the team working the KingAir test
article did.? That was just one of the hurdles towards STC'ing the Orenda
as an engine replacement.
So yes, the Orenda was to be a turbine replacement.? Mr. RPM and I discussed the
improvements it would bring the Turbo Commander, though neither of us thought
anyone would really do that, the economics of overhaul cost was very attractive.
Judging from the opinions / observations on this topic, Stevens Beechcraft, who
projected at least 40 shipsets of engines, couldn't sell the idea in enough numbers
to make it work.
Was it the delay in certification?? Was it the Ratchet Theory of Aviation (can't
go backwards, only forwards)?? Was it turbine ego???
I have to put in with Mr. RPM in his statements that a turbine engine loses power
the minute it leaves Sea Level ISA (or its flat rating) where a turbo normalized
or supercharged piston engine will maintain Sea Level power well into the
'Teens or Twenties. providing far more power aloft.
However, there's something nice about the simplicity of pinwheels spinning on a
stick, isn't there?
I was hanging around Mr. RPM's test facility in Marina and Salinas, California
in the late 70s /early 80s and know that the then Thunder Engine (precursor to
the Orenda) flew on a Turbo Commander, had interest from Israel as an engine
for tanks and U.S. Customs for interceptor boats, so presumably that market still
exists for the Orenda -- but there's one major element we're not discussing.
AvGas in a boutique fuel and Jet-A, diesel or rotgut kerosene is global.?? Yes,
the Orenda could be set up for Jet-A but that would have been another long process.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
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