---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/29/08: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:07 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (craigk391@sbcglobal.net) 2. 02:34 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Peter Bichier) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Robert S. Randazzo) 4. 07:48 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (nico css) 5. 11:40 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com) 6. 12:36 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (nico css) 7. 01:15 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (willis robison) 8. 03:39 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 03:49 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com) 10. 03:57 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Chris) 11. 04:10 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (willis robison) 12. 04:11 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Don Barry Home) 13. 04:24 PM - Recip vs. turbine (Don) 14. 04:51 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (nico css) 15. 04:54 PM - Re: Recip vs. turbine (nico css) 16. 05:05 PM - AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (peter bichier) 17. 05:14 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com) 18. 06:58 PM - Re: Recip vs. turbine (willis robison) 19. 09:04 PM - Wing lost in flight (Tom Fisher) 20. 10:03 PM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (yourtcfg@aol.com) 21. 11:18 PM - Re: Wing lost in flight (nico css) 22. 11:28 PM - Orenda Engine Market (Keith S. Gordon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation From: craigk391@sbcglobal.net VGhlIFNUQydzIHdlcmUgcGlja2VkIHVwIGJ5IGEgZ3V5IGluIEZMLiBUaGUgbGluayBzdGlsbCB3 b3Jrcw0KDQpjcmFpZyANCg0KU2VudCB2aWEgQmxhY2tCZXJyeSBieSBBVCZUDQoNCi0tLS0tT3Jp Z2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiAiRG9uIEJhcnJ5IEhvbWUiIDxkb24uYmFycnlAc2Jj Z2xvYmFsLm5ldD4NCg0KRGF0ZTogVHVlLCAyOCBPY3QgMjAwOCAyMzowMDoyNiANClRvOiA8Y29t bWFuZGVyLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBDb21tYW5kZXItTGlzdDog QUMtNjgwIEZMUCBFbmdpbmUgUlBNIEZsdWN0dWF0aW9uDQoNCg0KVGhpcyBpcyBhIG11bHRpLXBh cnQgbWVzc2FnZSBpbiBNSU1FIGZvcm1hdC4NCg0K ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:49 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation From: "Peter Bichier" Dick MacCoon's old site is still available (actually the domain is for sale) http://www.mrrpm.com/ it still has a video on the "promissing" (2002) new aluminum V8 water cooled engines which were supposed to be cheaper and fuel efficient... RPM Commander LLC is still in business and selling a couple of 560Fs http://www.rpmcommander.com/ To reach: RPM COMMANDER LLC (For STC services) c/o Paul Gendron 1401 N. Riverside Drive Suite 607 Pompano Beach, FLorida, USA 33062 -------- 560 Dreamer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210930#210930 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:33 AM PST US From: "Robert S. Randazzo" Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Don- The engine technology was picked up by an outfit called Trace Engines. (www.traceengines.com) They had a stand set up at the races this year at Reno. We stopped by to chat with them- and they brought around a fellow who has purchased the original Orenda certification test airplane. He has a second outfit that he explained was working to STC the 685 with these engines mounted. He claimed that they were "months away from an STC" to hang the V8s on 685s.. That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some time.. Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on that project. ;-) Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Barry Home Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation MR. RPM is out of business?? I wonder whatever happened to that AC they were playing around with the water-cooled Orenda engines. Don Houston TX _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation I do not yet have engine monitors but they are on the wish list. Well he was out of the business and already sold the STC and as far as I was concerned I was happy to receive the lines from him even if they had to be tweaked by an expensive AME who did in fact anneal the welds, good point. Tom. C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well, Next time you fly, once youve leaned for cruise, check the EGTs for those cylilnders that had the new lines welded. If they are running within a few degrees of the others, then he did a good job welding. SS lines with anything less than 130 thou. diam are extremely hard to weld without causing an "orifice" at the weldsite. Also, I doubt that he annealed the new weld, which will make the heat affected zone more brittle than the rest. Ask him how he treated the weld. (a smoky acetylene torch for 2 minutes would be sufficient. Bottom line, Mr.RPM should have is axxx chewed for sending you lousy parts. You shouldnt have to do his Acceptance test procedures on your AC. wer --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher wrote: From: Tom Fisher Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well, I am that much more informed, thanks for the info. Tom C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Thanks Tom. Ive designed a few fuel systems and his symptoms are typical of a flowdivider/lines on the hot side of an engine. (side downstream of an air cooled engine) And are more prevalent with Lines that have a lot of volume. Im unfamiliar with Commanders, but from the looks of the cowl inlets on some of them, it appears the cooling airflow is from bottom to top and then out. If not then there is a big air-dam that deflects cool air to the top of the engine and then down. Either way, cooling appears greatly reduced during climbout unless there are some big cown-vents downstream. As Ive seen it. 1. larger dia. lines have a higher vapor/liquid ratio during operation, and on shut down, cook-off the remaining fuel in the FDV. they are better, however on climbout as there is less pressure losses and heat absorbed. Modern FDV's have a purge valve that dumps fuel back to the inlet of the pump on shutdown. this immediately drops the pressure at the nozzles to zero... 2. smaller lines have shorter fill times, quicker starts but are susceptible to vapor lock because they absorb heat faster. At higher flowrates (rich) the delta-P loss in these lines may result in a higher vapor/liquid rato and thus a poorer spray patter at the nozzle. This is more of an issue on climbout on engines with poor cooling for whatever reason (like closed cowlvents, or just reduced airspeed (airflow)). Modern fuellines in these situations are insulated (just like grandpas truck). 3. for systems with high flowrates (~100 pph or more) the different lengths of fuel lines from the FDV to each nozzle becomes important. there are different pressure losses in each leg. (which makes GAMI's all the more important. ) If you want to save yourself the recurring cost of Gami injectors...get your flow divider valve balanced with your set of nozzles. Just some thoughts. wer former Pratt-Whitney and Ham-STD --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher wrote: From: Tom Fisher Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation I got a new set from Mr.RPM himself so I assume they were of the same inside diameter and yes his lines leaked and had to be welded in two places. I just replaced the lines from the flow divider to the cylinders. Tom. C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Tom, did you replace the lines with ones of the same Inside diameter? Did you replace those on both sides of the flow divider (spider), and the fuel servo? wer --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher wrote: From: Tom Fisher Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation I had the same surging problem on mine. I replaced all the upper deck lines with new stainless steel lines, the new lines also had to be welded in two places, this resolved the surging problem. Tom C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Mansfeld" Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 6:14 PM Subject: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation > > Am having a problem with the left engine on the 680 FLP I fly (Mr. RPM > Conversion). Takeoff is fine but on climb out the left engine RPM is > unsteady, somewhat like a prop that won't stabilize. Here's some info: > > 1. The problem seems to occur primarily during climb as I bring the > turbos up (I've got manual turbos) > 2. The fluctuation is random as to when it occurs and how much the RPM > fluctuates...probably 10-20 RPM. Sometimes it's noticeable as the > aircraft yaws, sometimes it's not noticeable. > 3. Sometimes it seems that leaning the mixture helps a bit but not > always > 4. I've also noticed that sometimes when the problem has occured on a > flight that on shutdown of the engine after landing, it doesn't want > to > stop running with the mixture pulled all the way to lean/idle-cutoff. > 5. Sometimes I the lean the mixture during the 1500 RPM ground check > and the RPM goes up 50 RPM or so, sometimes it doesn't > 6. Once I level off the problem seems to disappear or be almost > un-noticeable. Although tonight I applied full rich mixture while in > level > flight at 4,500' and I could notice a slight RPM fluctuation if I > paid close > attention. > 7. Fuel pressure is normal and turning the fuel pump on or off has no > affect on the engine > > My thoughts: > > 1. I think the problem is in some fuel metering mechanism in the > carburetor that is unsteady > 2. At one point I thought there might be a leak in the turbo pressure > lines causing a fluctuation in turbo air to the engine > 3. Now, with the engine shut down problem (doesn't happen every time) > I think there is a link between the turbo air (as I bring it up on > climb) > and fuel metering. They are probably interrelated. > > I've received help from many of you out there before. Has anyone had this > type problem occur and if so what might be the problem? > > Thank you, > > Ray Mansfield > N91ES > 850-217-5185 > > > > > 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:11 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well I do hope that they get some traction with this. Adams shutting down, Eclipse not going anywhere fast, are all bad news for GA. A success story would be a nice change. I, for one, would be very hesitant to load up a 685 with family and launch them with Orendas into the night over the Rockies but their STC with the ag planes do show that it can be a reliable powerplant. Having a couple of successful races under their belt can do wonders. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:18 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Don- The engine technology was picked up by an outfit called Trace Engines. (www.traceengines.com) They had a stand set up at the races this year at Reno. We stopped by to chat with them- and they brought around a fellow who has purchased the original Orenda certification test airplane. He has a second outfit that he explained was working to STC the 685 with these engines mounted. He claimed that they were "months away from an STC" to hang the V8s on 685s.. That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some time.. Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on that project. ;-) Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Barry Home Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation MR. RPM is out of business?? I wonder whatever happened to that AC they were playing around with the water-cooled Orenda engines. Don Houston TX _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation I do not yet have engine monitors but they are on the wish list. Well he was out of the business and already sold the STC and as far as I was concerned I was happy to receive the lines from him even if they had to be tweaked by an expensive AME who did in fact anneal the welds, good point. Tom. C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well, Next time you fly, once youve leaned for cruise, check the EGTs for those cylilnders that had the new lines welded. If they are running within a few degrees of the others, then he did a good job welding. SS lines with anything less than 130 thou. diam are extremely hard to weld without causing an "orifice" at the weldsite. Also, I doubt that he annealed the new weld, which will make the heat affected zone more brittle than the rest. Ask him how he treated the weld. (a smoky acetylene torch for 2 minutes would be sufficient. Bottom line, Mr.RPM should have is axxx chewed for sending you lousy parts. You shouldnt have to do his Acceptance test procedures on your AC. wer --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher wrote: From: Tom Fisher Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well, I am that much more informed, thanks for the info. Tom C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Thanks Tom. Ive designed a few fuel systems and his symptoms are typical of a flowdivider/lines on the hot side of an engine. (side downstream of an air cooled engine) And are more prevalent with Lines that have a lot of volume. Im unfamiliar with Commanders, but from the looks of the cowl inlets on some of them, it appears the cooling airflow is from bottom to top and then out. If not then there is a big air-dam that deflects cool air to the top of the engine and then down. Either way, cooling appears greatly reduced during climbout unless there are some big cown-vents downstream. As Ive seen it. 1. larger dia. lines have a higher vapor/liquid ratio during operation, and on shut down, cook-off the remaining fuel in the FDV. they are better, however on climbout as there is less pressure losses and heat absorbed. Modern FDV's have a purge valve that dumps fuel back to the inlet of the pump on shutdown. this immediately drops the pressure at the nozzles to zero... 2. smaller lines have shorter fill times, quicker starts but are susceptible to vapor lock because they absorb heat faster. At higher flowrates (rich) the delta-P loss in these lines may result in a higher vapor/liquid rato and thus a poorer spray patter at the nozzle. This is more of an issue on climbout on engines with poor cooling for whatever reason (like closed cowlvents, or just reduced airspeed (airflow)). Modern fuellines in these situations are insulated (just like grandpas truck). 3. for systems with high flowrates (~100 pph or more) the different lengths of fuel lines from the FDV to each nozzle becomes important. there are different pressure losses in each leg. (which makes GAMI's all the more important. ) If you want to save yourself the recurring cost of Gami injectors...get your flow divider valve balanced with your set of nozzles. Just some thoughts. wer former Pratt-Whitney and Ham-STD --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher wrote: From: Tom Fisher Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation I got a new set from Mr.RPM himself so I assume they were of the same inside diameter and yes his lines leaked and had to be welded in two places. I just replaced the lines from the flow divider to the cylinders. Tom. C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Tom, did you replace the lines with ones of the same Inside diameter? Did you replace those on both sides of the flow divider (spider), and the fuel servo? wer --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tom Fisher wrote: From: Tom Fisher Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation I had the same surging problem on mine. I replaced all the upper deck lines with new stainless steel lines, the new lines also had to be welded in two places, this resolved the surging problem. Tom C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Mansfeld" Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 6:14 PM Subject: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation > > Am having a problem with the left engine on the 680 FLP I fly (Mr. RPM > Conversion). Takeoff is fine but on climb out the left engine RPM is > unsteady, somewhat like a prop that won't stabilize. Here's some info: > > 1. The problem seems to occur primarily during climb as I bring the > turbos up (I've got manual turbos) > 2. The fluctuation is random as to when it occurs and how much the RPM > fluctuates...probably 10-20 RPM. Sometimes it's noticeable as the > aircraft yaws, sometimes it's not noticeable. > 3. Sometimes it seems that leaning the mixture helps a bit but not > always > 4. I've also noticed that sometimes when the problem has occured on a > flight that on shutdown of the engine after landing, it doesn't want > to > stop running with the mixture pulled all the way to lean/idle-cutoff. > 5. Sometimes I the lean the mixture during the 1500 RPM ground check > and the RPM goes up 50 RPM or so, sometimes it doesn't > 6. Once I level off the problem seems to disappear or be almost > un-noticeable. Although tonight I applied full rich mixture while in > level > flight at 4,500' and I could notice a slight RPM fluctuation if I > paid close > attention. > 7. Fuel pressure is normal and turning the fuel pump on or off has no > affect on the engine > > My thoughts: > > 1. I think the problem is in some fuel metering mechanism in the > carburetor that is unsteady > 2. At one point I thought there might be a leak in the turbo pressure > lines causing a fluctuation in turbo air to the engine > 3. Now, with the engine shut down problem (doesn't happen every time) > I think there is a link between the turbo air (as I bring it up on > climb) > and fuel metering. They are probably interrelated. > > I've received help from many of you out there before. Has anyone had this > type problem occur and if so what might be the problem? > > Thank you, > > Ray Mansfield > N91ES > 850-217-5185 > > > > > 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:12 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Afternoon Robert, I have a friend who was involved as a mechanic with that project. He said it was a beautiful running engine and that everything worked just as they had expected it would. Unfortunately, the interest in converting from a Turbine to a piston was just not there. I asked many of my King Air driver friends what they thought. Everyone of them said there was no way they would ever go back to flying a piston. I got the impression that it was an ego thing. They had no interest at all in the economy or performance gains that might be achieved. They just wanted to arrive in a turbine powered flying machine! Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:22:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes: That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some time.. Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on that project. ;-) Robert S. Randazzo **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:12 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well, Old Bob, there is the safety of having much less moving parts in a turbine, too. And the moving parts in a turbine just spin, they don't accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate thousands of times a minute either. Seems to me they have my vote on that. However, going from an ageing Lycoming or Continental to an Orenda would be a favorite for me. Provided they can last and win some races and endurance rallies to increase their knowledge and capabilities of the engines. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Afternoon Robert, I have a friend who was involved as a mechanic with that project. He said it was a beautiful running engine and that everything worked just as they had expected it would. Unfortunately, the interest in converting from a Turbine to a piston was just not there. I asked many of my King Air driver friends what they thought. Everyone of them said there was no way they would ever go back to flying a piston. I got the impression that it was an ego thing. They had no interest at all in the economy or performance gains that might be achieved. They just wanted to arrive in a turbine powered flying machine! Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:22:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rsrandazzo@precisionmanuals.com writes: That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX and according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't been flying in some time.. Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on that project. ;-) Robert S. Randazzo _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:09 PM PST US From: willis robison Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable .- The exception to this was the market shift from turbo-props to light j ets.- None of the operators wanted to trade the efficiency of thier turbo props for the high initial and recurring costs of operating twin jets.- But, given the choice, people (not just pilots) loved flying in Jets!- Wh o cares if the cost of travel went up 20%.- You no doubt have noticed tha t all the regionals (in the black) are running Props again.- - If you have an engine that has a TBO of 3500 to 5400 hrs, it could be made by Briggs and Stratton and would still find a home.- The pilot is the las t opinion heard. - Personally, I prefer a nice Big-Displacement, Geared, slow turning Piston. -(560Fis my favorite)-why?- Efficiency.- There isn't a law that say s you have to fly full throttle.- Use your propeller performance curve an d POH-to tell you- your best cruise altitude and airspeed, and trim for that.- Use MRCP to get in and out effectively and then rein-in your ego. - There's nothing sexy about straight and level flight. - Hoover was cool....but he didnt pay for the plane or the gas. - wer --- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css wrote: From: nico css Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well, Old Bob, there is the safety of having much less moving parts in a tu rbine, too. And the moving parts in a turbine just spin, they don't accelle rate, stop, turn around, accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate thousa nds of times a minute either. Seems to me they have my vote on that. Howeve r, going from an ageing Lycoming or Continental to an Orenda would be a fav orite for me. Provided they can last and win some races and endurance ralli es to increase their knowledge and capabilities of the engines. - Nico - - From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Afternoon Robert, - I have a friend who was involved as a mechanic with that project. He said i t was a beautiful running engine and that everything worked just as they ha d expected it would. - Unfortunately, the interest in converting from a Turbine to a piston was ju st not there. - I asked many of my King Air driver friends what they thought. Everyone of t hem said there was no way they would ever go back to flying a piston. I got the impression that it was an ego thing. They had no interest at all in th e economy or performance gains that might be achieved. They just wanted to arrive in a turbine powered flying machine! - Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 - In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:22:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rsrandazz o@precisionmanuals.com writes: - That Mr. RPM test bed commander is currently on the ground in Midland TX an d according to some sources I checked with- it hasn't- been flying in som e time.. - Like all things in GA- seems to be more heat than energy being generated on that project.- ;-) - Robert S. Randazzo Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deal s! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:22 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Evening Nico, That is my feeling as well, but it just didn't seem to appeal to as many folks as the developer had hoped. The big market was expected to be older Turbine Commanders and King Airs. Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even though the numbers worked out quite favorably. Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 2:37:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: Well, Old Bob, there is the safety of having much less moving parts in a turbine, too. And the moving parts in a turbine just spin, they don't accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate thousands of times a minute either. Seems to me they have my vote on that. However, going from an ageing Lycoming or Continental to an Orenda would be a favorite for me. Provided they can last and win some races and endurance rallies to increase their knowledge and capabilities of the engines. Nico **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:56 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Afternoon wer, It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses still prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off! Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, drwer2@yahoo.com writes: While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable. **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:09 PM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even though the numbers > worked out quite favorably. Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, but I have a little different perspective on this one. I suspect that if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated it as an option. Since (to the best of my knowledge), no STC/certification was ever achieved for those airplanes ,no significant operating history exists, and no advertising was ever done in places where corp owners would have seen it, I don't think the product ever mad it out of the shadows. I also don't think that the engine would have ever gained much momentum without some significant operational experience. Corporate owners don't seem to be the type to pounce on a major unproven powerplant option to me. Nico's point that a few Reno win's would help put them on the map is valid, but they'd need a good test fleet building hours to make it attractive to the target market. I remember hearing that there were some significant problems with the Commander test vehicle, but don't remember the specifics. Anyone else know more than I do? cheers, Chris ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:18 PM PST US From: willis robison Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation EPI, Inc. designed and developed the engine mounting and structural integri ty testing had a lot to do with the demise of the project.- Here is a lin k to thier comments on the engine, etc. - http://www.epi-eng.com/aircraft_engine_conversions/additional_weight_consid erations.htm#examples - willis Robison --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Chris wrote: From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even though the numbers > worked out quite favorably. Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, but I have a little different perspective on this one. I suspect that if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated it as an option. Since (to the best of my knowledge), no STC/certification was ever achieved for those airplanes ,no significant operating history exists, and no advertising was ever done in places where corp owners would have seen it, I don't think the product ever mad it out of the shadows. I also don't think that the engine would have ever gained much momentum without some significant operational experience. Corporate owners don't seem to be the type to pounce on a major unproven powerplant option to me. Nico's point that a few Reno win's would help put them on the map is valid, but they'd need a good test fleet building hours to make it attractive to the target market. I remember hearing that there were some significant problems with the Commander test vehicle, but don't remember the specifics. Anyone else know more than I do? cheers, Chris =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:44 PM PST US From: "Don Barry Home" Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation That's an excellent point. I spoke to one of my business friend's who happens to be a Texas state senator. Apparently the folks at Trace have some connections with the state gov't here. They (Texas) must have a "herd" of King Airs - there's a study in progress looking at helping out on the STC approval and doing conversions on the state planes. They said the numbers he's seen on this are "compelling", and they like spending their $$$ within the state. How knows? Maybe this will end up going somewhere? Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more quiet than an air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that? Don Houston ,TX _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Afternoon wer, It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses still prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off! Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, drwer2@yahoo.com writes: While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable. _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:52 PM PST US From: "Don" Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine "While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, " I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet. They just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change. Seems like I remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle movement produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousand feet on a DC-9, at max gross. I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around, airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The engines were firewalled and all indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless to say they survived, but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust, double the rating. Don't know why the fuel controls let them get this high, maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The engines were borascoped and not even changed. Try that with a recip engine! Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have several thousand hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recips. A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind. I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse, and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'. Don ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:54 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Well, the video of the test Commander certainly sounds as if it is a quiet ship. Didn't one of the guys on the list fly the test model for the TV spot? Bill Lieff? I cannot recall exactly. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Barry Home Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation That's an excellent point. I spoke to one of my business friend's who happens to be a Texas state senator. Apparently the folks at Trace have some connections with the state gov't here. They (Texas) must have a "herd" of King Airs - there's a study in progress looking at helping out on the STC approval and doing conversions on the state planes. They said the numbers he's seen on this are "compelling", and they like spending their $$$ within the state. How knows? Maybe this will end up going somewhere? Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more quiet than an air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that? Don Houston ,TX _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Afternoon wer, It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses still prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off! Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, drwer2@yahoo.com writes: While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable. _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:19 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine "While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, " I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet. They just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change. Seems like I remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle movement produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousand feet on a DC-9, at max gross. I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around, airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The engines were firewalled and all indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless to say they survived, but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust, double the rating. Don't know why the fuel controls let them get this high, maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The engines were borascoped and not even changed. Try that with a recip engine! Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have several thousand hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recips. A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind. I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse, and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'. Don ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:52 PM PST US From: peter bichier Subject: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:09 PM, Don Barry Home wrote: > Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more > quiet than an air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that? > if you go to MrRPM's old site: http://www.mrrpm.com/ and click "here" to see & hear the 1200 hp Commander Flight, the video still works! granted the commentator and music and hoop la spoils it but you can still notice how quiet it is, they taxi and also have a clip of a pass over. but if that commander is not flying anymore... ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:04 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Evening Chris, Well, I do not find that I am disagreeing with you! What I stated was that when I asked my King Air and Turbine Commander owner friends what they thought of the Orenda conversion, the universal answer was that there was no way they would trade their turbines for a hopped up Chevy design even if it did perform better and had lower fuel burn. I did not find a single owner who was interested in getting the conversion. I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! Admittedly, mine was a small and probably not significant sample, but I was surprised at the resistance I found. Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 5:57:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@cox.net writes: Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, but I have a little different perspective on this one. I suspect that if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated it as an option. **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:41 PM PST US From: willis robison Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine Modern turbine engines on FADECs, set to-emergency power, the control loo p eliminates all but the EGT probes(TiT).- So the engines would produce a s much power as the turbine section could handle, they would be VERY HOT in deed.- No Inlet control, no torque control....nada.- As the Turbine inl et temp maxed out, then the control would ramp back the fuel servos.- In the meantime, you would get a ridiculous amount of power. - At least thats how its done on PWC and GE engines.- I dont know about RR or BMW but Id guess the control laws are similar. - wer --- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css wrote: From: nico css Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine - - "While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning t o Turbines, " - I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet.- The y just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change.- Seems like I remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle moveme nt produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference-between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousa nd feet on a DC-9, at max gross. - I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around,-ai rspeed dropped well below 100 knots.- The engines were firewalled and all indicator were pegged-beyond the red line.- Needless to say they survi ved, but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs th rust, double the rating.- Don't know why the fuel controls let them get t his high, maybe the low airspeed, not sure.- The engines were borascoped and not even changed.- Try that with a recip engine! - Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have-several thousand hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recip s.- A certain Turbo compounded-R-3350 comes to mind. - I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse, and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'. - Don - - - href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:26 PM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Commander-List: Wing lost in flight This is an amazing YOU TUBE video. Notlandung: Der beste Pilot ever! | chilloutzone.de - free games and free fun Tom C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine Modern turbine engines on FADECs, set to emergency power, the control loop eliminates all but the EGT probes(TiT). So the engines would produce as much power as the turbine section could handle, they would be VERY HOT indeed. No Inlet control, no torque control....nada. As the Turbine inlet temp maxed out, then the control would ramp back the fuel servos. In the meantime, you would get a ridiculous amount of power. At least thats how its done on PWC and GE engines. I dont know about RR or BMW but Id guess the control laws are similar. wer --- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css wrote: From: nico css Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine To: commander-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:51 PM Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine "While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, " I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet. They just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change. Seems like I remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle movement produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousand feet on a DC-9, at max gross. I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around, airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The engines were firewalled and all indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless to say they survived, but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust, double the rating. Don't know why the fuel controls let them get this high, maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The engines were borascoped and not even changed. Try that with a recip engine! Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have several thousand hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recips. A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind. I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse, and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'. Don href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation From: yourtcfg@aol.com That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines.? They were replacements for the recip fleet.? The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander..? They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340.? jb I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Evening Chris, ? Well, I do not find that I am disagreeing with you! ? What I stated was that when I asked my King Air and Turbine Commander owner friends what they thought of the Orenda conversion, the universal answer was that there was no way they would trade their turbines for a hopped up Chevy design even if it did perform better and had lower fuel burn. I did not find a single owner who was interested in getting the conversion. I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! ? Admittedly, mine was a small and probably not significant sample, but I was surprised at the resistance I found. ? Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 ? In a message dated 10/29/2008 5:57:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@cox.net writes: Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, but I have a little different perspective on this one.? I suspect that if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated it as an option. Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:11 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Wing lost in flight I saw a model plane do that. That took guts and a clear head. I bet he needed new underwear after that. Great stuff, Tom. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:03 PM Subject: Commander-List: Wing lost in flight This is an amazing YOU TUBE video. Notlandung: Der beste Pilot ever! | chilloutzone.de - free games and free fun Tom C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine Modern turbine engines on FADECs, set to emergency power, the control loop eliminates all but the EGT probes(TiT). So the engines would produce as much power as the turbine section could handle, they would be VERY HOT indeed. No Inlet control, no torque control....nada. As the Turbine inlet temp maxed out, then the control would ramp back the fuel servos. In the meantime, you would get a ridiculous amount of power. At least thats how its done on PWC and GE engines. I dont know about RR or BMW but Id guess the control laws are similar. wer --- On Wed, 10/29/08, nico css wrote: From: nico css Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM Subject: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine "While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, " I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or turbo, but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, give me a high bypass turbojet. They just hang together and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger for the engine change. Seems like I remember being told something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle movement produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the difference between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow covered short runway, about a thousand feet on a DC-9, at max gross. I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when they encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 degree pitch-up on a go around, airspeed dropped well below 100 knots. The engines were firewalled and all indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless to say they survived, but computer readout showed the engines produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust, double the rating. Don't know why the fuel controls let them get this high, maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The engines were borascoped and not even changed. Try that with a recip engine! Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I have several thousand hours in turbines and have never lost an engine or had an emergency, a few minor problems yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with recips. A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind. I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I am on board, but I have always felt, turbines especially turbojets will take much more abuse, and like the old Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'. Don href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:02 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Orenda Engine Market From: "Keith S. Gordon" That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines.? They were replacements for the recip fleet.? The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander..? They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340.? jb I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! Yes, but ... While Mr. RPM was making headway with the Commander 685 installation, the major launch customer was Stevens Beechcraft who was going to re-engine the KingAir 90 fleet.??? The KingAir installation suffered oil foaming and Mr. RPM was able to solve the problem on his Commander before the team working the KingAir test article did.? That was just one of the hurdles towards STC'ing the Orenda as an engine replacement. So yes, the Orenda was to be a turbine replacement.? Mr. RPM and I discussed the improvements it would bring the Turbo Commander, though neither of us thought anyone would really do that, the economics of overhaul cost was very attractive. Judging from the opinions / observations on this topic, Stevens Beechcraft, who projected at least 40 shipsets of engines, couldn't sell the idea in enough numbers to make it work. Was it the delay in certification?? Was it the Ratchet Theory of Aviation (can't go backwards, only forwards)?? Was it turbine ego??? I have to put in with Mr. RPM in his statements that a turbine engine loses power the minute it leaves Sea Level ISA (or its flat rating) where a turbo normalized or supercharged piston engine will maintain Sea Level power well into the 'Teens or Twenties. providing far more power aloft. However, there's something nice about the simplicity of pinwheels spinning on a stick, isn't there? I was hanging around Mr. RPM's test facility in Marina and Salinas, California in the late 70s /early 80s and know that the then Thunder Engine (precursor to the Orenda) flew on a Turbo Commander, had interest from Israel as an engine for tanks and U.S. Customs for interceptor boats, so presumably that market still exists for the Orenda -- but there's one major element we're not discussing. AvGas in a boutique fuel and Jet-A, diesel or rotgut kerosene is global.?? Yes, the Orenda could be set up for Jet-A but that would have been another long process. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.