Commander-List Digest Archive

Thu 10/30/08


Total Messages Posted: 23



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:18 AM - Re: Wing lost in flight (John Vormbaum)
     2. 04:52 AM - Re: auto engines. Was: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     3. 05:13 AM - Re: auto engines. Was: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Chris)
     4. 05:48 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (Bill Hamilton)
     5. 07:14 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (willis robison)
     6. 07:34 AM -  (Jim Addington)
     7. 08:04 AM - Re:  (willis robison)
     8. 09:07 AM - Re: Design Information (willis robison)
     9. 09:13 AM - Re:  (yourtcfg@aol.com)
    10. 09:22 AM - Re:  (willis robison)
    11. 09:29 AM - Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation (David Owens)
    12. 09:35 AM - Re:  (nico css)
    13. 09:36 AM - Re:  (Jim Addington)
    14. 09:37 AM - Re:  (Tom Fisher)
    15. 10:05 AM - Re:  (willis robison)
    16. 10:49 AM - Re:  ()
    17. 11:22 AM - Re:  (willis robison)
    18. 12:34 PM - Re:  (Don)
    19. 12:50 PM - Re:  (nico css)
    20. 01:25 PM - Re:  (Don)
    21. 01:48 PM - Re:  (willis robison)
    22. 02:04 PM - Re:  (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    23. 02:04 PM - Re:  (Don)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:18:21 AM PST US
    From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
    Subject: Re: Wing lost in flight
    Um, you are all aware that that was a CGI video, and not real, right? The RC model pilot did a fantastic job though, Nico...I've seen that video and it was great! nico css wrote: > I saw a model plane do that. That took guts and a clear head. I bet he > needed new underwear after that. > Great stuff, Tom. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom > Fisher > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:03 PM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Commander-List: Wing lost in flight > > This is an amazing YOU TUBE video. > > Notlandung: Der beste Pilot ever! | chilloutzone.de - free games and > free fun <http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html> > > Tom > > C-GISS > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* willis robison <mailto:drwer2@yahoo.com> > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:56 PM > *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine > > Modern turbine engines on FADECs, set to emergency power, the > control loop eliminates all but the EGT probes(TiT). So the > engines would produce as much power as the turbine section could > handle, they would be VERY HOT indeed. No Inlet control, no > torque control....nada. As the Turbine inlet temp maxed out, then > the control would ramp back the fuel servos. In the meantime, you > would get a ridiculous amount of power. > > At least thats how its done on PWC and GE engines. I dont know > about RR or BMW but Id guess the control laws are similar. > > wer > > --- On *Wed, 10/29/08, nico css /<nico@cybersuperstore.com>/* wrote: > > From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:51 PM > > Exactly my sentiments. It's just a shaft with blades on it. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf > Of *Don > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:21 PM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Commander-List: Recip vs. turbine > > > > > > "While there may be a certain amount of ego associated > with transitioning to Turbines, " > > I concede the fuel efficiency to props, be they recip or > turbo, but if I am ever in a life threating emergency, > give me a high bypass turbojet. They just hang together > and produce power, lots and lots of power, push it to the > stops and keep it there, it may redline and need changed > on the ground but it will get you back to the hanger for > the engine change. Seems like I remember being told > something like, 'the last 10% of the throttle movement > produces 90% of the power', do know, in reverse the > difference between 80% and 90% is very amazing on a snow > covered short runway, about a thousand feet on a DC-9, at > max gross. > > I have a friend who was on an A-300 with GE engines when > they encountered a very severe emergency, involving a 45 > degree pitch-up on a go around, airspeed dropped well > below 100 knots. The engines were firewalled and all > indicator were pegged beyond the red line. Needless to > say they survived, but computer readout showed the engines > produced almost 100,000 lbs thrust, double the rating. > Don't know why the fuel controls let them get this high, > maybe the low airspeed, not sure. The engines were > borascoped and not even changed. Try that with a recip > engine! > > Personally, I'm glad I was not on the flight, but I > have several thousand hours in turbines and have never > lost an engine or had an emergency, a few minor problems > yes, but never an emergency, more than I can say with > recips. A certain Turbo compounded R-3350 comes to mind. > > I baby my engines as I pay the bills, but also because I > am on board, but I have always felt, turbines especially > turbojets will take much more abuse, and like the old > Timex commercial, 'it keeps on ticking'. > > Don > > > > > * > * > > * > > > * > > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > > * > > > * > > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > 3D============================================ > > * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > * > > > * > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3568 (20081030) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:52:32 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: auto engines. Was: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
    Good Morning jb, I have no doubt that what you say is true, but it was presented to the Beechcraft world as a replacement engine for the King Air. A couple of my friends have (now 'had'!) Turbo Commanders and it was also discussed in their world. When it was discussed within those groups, the interest was as I reported. No doubt other groups felt differently. Since I am certain I will never be able to afford a King Air, Turbo Commander, or even a non turboed Commander, the whole idea was and is to me, merely an intellectual curiosity. Like most wannabes, I am always interested in new ideas that may provide better motive power than is now available. After watching the development of automobile engine powered aircraft for many years, I have come to the point where I still hope all the new thinkers well, but I fear there is no free lunch. Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/30/2008 12:03:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, yourtcfg@aol.com writes: That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines. They were replacements for the recip fleet. The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander.. They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340. jb **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:13:36 AM PST US
    From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: auto engines. Was: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
    BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > After watching the development of automobile engine powered aircraft > for many years, I have come to the point where I still hope all the > new thinkers well, but I fear there is no free lunch. Yup.... exactly. I think the effort made by Honda a few years back was very telling of the realities of aircraft engines. They announced that they were going to undertake a well funded "clean slate" engine design. No preconceptions on any aspect - everything would be evaluated. So, after years of R&D and millions of dollars, what did some of the worlds best engine engineers come up with??? A large bore, direct drive, 360 cid 4 cylinder air cooled opposed engine that made around 180hp. Basicly, a clone of the Lycoming IO-360 but prettier. Says a lot, eh? chris


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:48:32 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Hamilton" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
    Subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
    Folks, I have had some involvement (automotive) that had a bearing on the problems of the Orenda, and some of the other efforts to "aerofy" automotive engines. Although of different engineering origin, the recent technical (not financial/management) problems of Thielert engines have been related to the auto origins of the engine. There are some interesting and virtually insoluble problems of physics with the traditional firing order of a 90 degree V-8, but if you go to a "flat plane" crank (as per competition V-8's) you get vibration that is uncomfortable in an auto or an aircraft. It's all a while ago, but a fading memory tells me that it is No.5 big end that has a life measured in seconds, with any interruption of lubrication, in the traditional crank/firing order, if we could do an Orenda with a flat plane crank (as I believe might have been tried) and produce a solution to the vibration, so that you didn't destroy the prop. or the surrounding aeroplane, you would have a goer. Again trusting to memory, there was a problem with moving cylinder sleeves in the Orenda, the cost of re-design to eliminate this problem was probably at least one nail in the coffin. Remember, "rules" for Ag. Engines are not quite the same as for a "standard" cat. C.of A aeroplane. Cheers, Bill Hamilton AC-500A ZK-DCF From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines. They were replacements for the recip fleet. The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander.. They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340. jb I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Evening Chris, Well, I do not find that I am disagreeing with you!<G> What I stated was that when I asked my King Air and Turbine Commander owner friends what they thought of the Orenda conversion, the universal answer was that there was no way they would trade their turbines for a hopped up Chevy design even if it did perform better and had lower fuel burn. I did not find a single owner who was interested in getting the conversion. I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! Admittedly, mine was a small and probably not significant sample, but I was surprised at the resistance I found. Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/29/2008 5:57:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@cox.net writes: Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, but I have a little different perspective on this one. I suspect that if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated it as an option. _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! <http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001> _____ McCain or Obama? Stay up to date on the latest from the campaign trail with AOL News <http://news.aol.com/elections?ncid=emlcntusnews00000001> .


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:14:35 AM PST US
    From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
    Well there have been some sucesses,- Honda and Porsche both produced moto rs that worked well, and were more efficient than current aero motors. they were MUCH more complicated owing to DOHV, variable valve and ignition timi ng as well as the require d reduction unit.- here is an overhead of the P orsche PFM (porsche flugmoter) http://www.mooneyland.com/mooneyposter.jpg - The honda was similar and they both had Specific Fuel consumptions below 0. 4 pph/hp.- I think honda gave up on the piston division to commit to thie r new Honda-Jet. - The real-reason you dont have Honda or Porsche emblazoned on the side of your nacell is that Neither- could make a business model based on 1000 en gines a year. Even if you charged-$40k each....just no money in it for co mpanies-with stockholders,- especially the technically competent ones l ike H or P.-- - Would you fly in a Dodge or Ford (or chevy) powered Commander?.....it would take a SEA-change in personality and capability. - Oh, and my last 2p on design via racing engines.....You cant design a clean slate engine for competition.- You start with a Basic design engine and make incremental modifications to achieve the design goal.- Thats why Por sche was chosen...they already had an air-cooled, multivalve, semi-PADEC (p artial-authority) engine-and only needed a PRU for-the propeller. - As memory serves, Nissan even produced 2000 hp race engines for the Pond te am, and were somewhat successful.--They had cooling problems tho and bu rned up thier only prototypes at Reno.- - - wer- --- On Thu, 10/30/08, Bill Hamilton <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au> wrote: From: Bill Hamilton <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au> Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Folks, I have had some involvement (automotive) that had a bearing on the problems of the Orenda, and some of the other efforts to =93aerofy=94 automotive en gines. Although of different engineering origin, the recent technical (not financial/management) problems of Thielert engines have been related to the auto origins of the engine. - There are some interesting and virtually insoluble problems of physics with the traditional firing order of a 90 degree V-8, but if you go to a =93fla t plane=94 crank (as per competition V-8=92s) you get vibration that is unc omfortable in an auto or an aircraft. - It=92s all a while ago, but a fading memory tells me that it is No.5 big en d that has a life measured in seconds, with any interruption of lubrication , in the traditional crank/firing order, if we could do an Orenda with a fl at plane crank (as I believe might have been tried) and produce a solution to the vibration, so that you didn=92t destroy the prop. or the surrounding aeroplane, you would have a goer. - Again trusting to memory, there was a problem with moving cylinder sleeves in the Orenda, the cost of re-design to eliminate this problem was probably at least one nail in the coffin. Remember, =93rules=94 for Ag. Engines are not quite the same as for a =93standard=94 cat. C.of A aeroplane. - Cheers, Bill Hamilton AC-500A ZK-DCF - From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation - That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines.- They were replacements for the re cip fleet.- The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Co mmander..- They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the ge ared 1340.- jb I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impr ession was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation Good Evening Chris, - Well, I do not find that I am disagreeing with you!<G> - What I stated was that when I asked my King Air and Turbine Commander owner friends what they thought of the Orenda conversion, the universal answer w as that there was no way they would trade their turbines for a hopped up Ch evy design even if it did perform better and had lower fuel burn. I did not find a single owner who was interested in getting the conversion. I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression w as that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! - Admittedly, mine was a small and probably not significant sample, but I was surprised at the resistance I found. - Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 - In a message dated 10/29/2008 5:57:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@ cox.net writes: Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, but I have a little different perspective on this one.- I suspect that if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated it as an option. Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deal s! - - - - McCain or Obama? Stay up to date on the latest from the campaign trail with AOL News. - -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp:// forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution - =0A=0A=0A


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:34:34 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@verizon.net>
    Subject:
    You young kids have all missed the boat, round engines are the best. Jim Addington Subject: Engines - Rotary vs. Turbine Between A Radial Engine And A Jet Engine Round engines are commonly known as Radial engines. The piston Jugs are placed in a circle. Hence "Round" engines. Turbine engines are known as Jet engines. We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining aviation and our hearing. A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery. The air travels through it in a straight line and doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of engine oil or pilot sweat. Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder to start. Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's like waking up a mistress On some planes, the pilots aren't even allowed to do it. Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a lady-like poof and start whining a little louder. Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that. It's a GUY thing. When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting turbine is like flicking on aceiling fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting. When you have started his round engine successfully your Crew Chief looks up at you like he'd let you kiss his girl, too! Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough, which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This helps concentrate the mind. Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to fiddle with during long flights. Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended machines to smell. Pass this on to an old WWII guy (or his son, or anyone who ever flew them) in remembrance of the "Greatest Generation".


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:04:25 AM PST US
    From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    Well some of these 'kids' say....Right-on-brother! - (funny...I havent felt like a kid since '69) Maybe thats why I like this Po st...feel like a kid again. - wer --- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Addington <jtaddington@verizon.net> wrote: From: Jim Addington <jtaddington@verizon.net> Subject: Commander-List: You young kids have all missed the boat, round engines are the best. Jim Addington - - Subject: Engines - Rotary vs. Turbine - Between A Radial Engine And A Jet Engine Round engines are commonly known as Radial engines. The piston Jugs are placed in a circle. Hence "Round" engines. Turbine engines are known as Jet engines. We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining aviation and our hearing. A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery. The air travels through it in a straight line and doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of engine oil or pilot sweat. Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder to start. Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's like waking up a mistress On some planes, the pilots aren't even allowed to do it. Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a lady-like poof and start whining a little louder. Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that. It's a GUY thing. When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting turbine is like flicking on aceiling fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting. When you have started his round engine successfully your Crew Chief looks up at you like he'd let you kiss his girl, too! Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough, which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This helps concentrate the mind. Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to fiddle with during long flights. Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended machines to smell. Pass this on to an old WWII guy (or his son, or anyone who ever flew them) in remembrance of the "Greatest Generation". - - - - -=0A=0A=0A


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:07:10 AM PST US
    From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Design Information
    Im trying to find any of the original design data for the 500 to 680 series aircraft.- Im trying to locate the L/D curves for any one of these model s. - thanks. - wer=0A=0A=0A


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:13:32 AM PST US
    Subject: Re:
    From: yourtcfg@aol.com
    GREAT STUFF.? I flew my P&W,?R-985 last night looking at the fall foliage, the start procedures is just like that!!!? I could ad that even the shut down is cool.? Hold the brakes, don't point the prop blast at anything important.? Advance the throttle to about 1500RPM?and slowly move the mix to idle cut off.? Then as the engine winds down,?close the throttle.? This scavenges oil out of the sump, back to the tank after the taxi.? Not a bad idea in a Commander with geared engine ether, they are "dry sump" just like a radial.? jb -----Original Message----- From: Jim Addington <jtaddington@verizon.net> Sent: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 7:29 am Subject: Commander-List: You young kids have all missed the boat, round engines are the best. Jim Addington ? ? Subject: Engines - Rotary vs. Turbine ? Between A Radial Engine And A Jet Engine Round engines are commonly known as Radial engines. The piston Jugs are placed in a circle. Hence "Round" engines. Turbine engines are known as Jet engines. We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining aviation and our hearing. A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery. The air travels through it in a straight line and doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of engine oil or pilot sweat. Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder to start. Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's like waking up a mistress On some planes, the pilots aren't even allowed to do it. Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a lady-like poof and start whining a little louder. Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that. It's a GUY thing. When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting turbine is like flicking on aceiling fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting. When you have started his round engine successfully your Crew Chief looks up at you like he'd let you kiss his girl, too! Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough, which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This helps concentrate the mind. Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to fiddle with during long flights. Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended machines to smell. Pass this on to an old WWII guy (or his son, or anyone who ever flew them) in remembrance of the "Greatest Generation". ? ? ? ? ?


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:22:25 AM PST US
    From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    Moderator: - Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list?- Is th ere anything the 'list' can to do stop it? - - - wer=0A=0A=0A


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:29:43 AM PST US
    From: "David Owens" <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
    Subject: Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
    DON... where in Houston are you??? Are you flying Commanders now? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:35:46 AM PST US
    From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
    Subject: mander-List:
    I had none, Will. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of willis robison Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Moderator: Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list? Is there anything the 'list' can to do stop it? wer D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== =========


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:36:19 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington@verizon.net>
    Subject: mander-List:
    I have not and glad, besides I have already voted. Jim Addington _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of willis robison Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Moderator: Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list? Is there anything the 'list' can to do stop it? wer


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:37:39 AM PST US
    From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    I have not gotten any but I did receive a lot of "unable to deliver" spam messages. Tom. C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Moderator: Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list? Is there anything the 'list' can to do stop it? wer 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:05:24 AM PST US
    From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: mander-List:
    Thanks...It appears to be a personal email sent from a list member.... - they're now on the spam list. - wer --- On Thu, 10/30/08, nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> wrote: From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> Subject: RE: Commander-List: I had none, Will. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of willis robison Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Moderator: - Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list?- Is th ere anything the 'list' can to do stop it? - - - wer 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com /contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D =0A=0A=0A


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:49:44 AM PST US
    From: <andrew.bridget@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    Hi Wilis, I've not been getting anything either. But often what happens is spammers use somebody else's e-mail address (sounds like in this case the Matronics address) - I know this because my Josh Stafford Books e-mail address has been used by spammers. I have had a number of flame-mail replies to my website saying they hate me for sending out spam, will never buy my books, etc. Most unfortunate. Regards, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Moderator: Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list? Is there anything the 'list' can to do stop it? wer 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:22:06 AM PST US
    From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    Gosh, I hope that's the case.- My 'spammer" in this cas,-is a frequent contributor and otherwise has been very helpful with things Commander relat ed. - I didnt know you could hijack someones email like that.- We'll, Ill be mo re careful from now on. - thanks. - wer --- On Thu, 10/30/08, andrew.bridget@telus.net <andrew.bridget@telus.net> w rote: From: andrew.bridget@telus.net <andrew.bridget@telus.net> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hi Wilis, I've not been getting anything either. But often what happens is spammers use somebody else's e-mail address (sounds like in this case the M atronics address) - I know this because my Josh Stafford Books e-mail addre ss has been used by spammers. I have had a number of flame-mail replies to my website saying they hate me for sending out spam, will never buy my book s, etc. Most unfortunate. Regards, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: willis robison Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Moderator: - Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list?- Is th ere anything the 'list' can to do stop it? - - - wer 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com /contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D =0A=0A=0A


    Message 18


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    Time: 12:34:32 PM PST US
    From: "Don" <dongirod@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    "Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list? Is there anything the 'list' can to do stop it" I thought that is why my computer has a "delete" button!Don


    Message 19


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    Time: 12:50:22 PM PST US
    From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
    Subject: mander-List:
    Indeed, there is a delete button. But sometimes it can be so overwhelming, not to mention the scare it puts into a list operator when that happens (where else did they get into?), that it is a real and expensive pest. I live and die by my emails and receive about 300 emails a day. A couple of years ago I hosted my own email servers and my daily email receipt rate ran in the thousands of about 80% being spam, ugly and less ugly. Eventually I gave up and had my servers moved to a hosted application with spam filtering and staff that does nothing else but keep it up to date, which brought the rate down into the low hundreds; cutting the incidences of spam down to about 10% that still slip past the filters. I could never answer the question of how many legitimate emails are being filtered out that I will never receive; and how many opportunities and business mail were lost. I would never know. To minimize the impact of a spam filter, I style the content of my emails not to contain buzz words that would alarm the spam filter. And if I need information from a vendor or contractor that would of necessity have words similar to those found in spam in it, I have it faxed to me. We're only trying to avoid the robbers that lurk in the bushes as we go about our business, that's the game. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list? Is there anything the 'list' can to do stop it" I thought that is why my computer has a "delete" button! Don


    Message 20


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    Time: 01:25:25 PM PST US
    From: "Don" <dongirod@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    Nico; I don't think a political spam is "robbers that lurk in the bushes" and as wer said he did, just put the sender in the blocked email list. I agree, it does not belong on the list, which as I understand it, it is not on the list, but I don't make a big deal out of it. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:46 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Indeed, there is a delete button. But sometimes it can be so overwhelming, not to mention the scare it puts into a list operator when that happens (where else did they get into?), that it is a real and expensive pest. I live and die by my emails and receive about 300 emails a day. A couple of years ago I hosted my own email servers and my daily email receipt rate ran in the thousands of about 80% being spam, ugly and less ugly. Eventually I gave up and had my servers moved to a hosted application with spam filtering and staff that does nothing else but keep it up to date, which brought the rate down into the low hundreds; cutting the incidences of spam down to about 10% that still slip past the filters. I could never answer the question of how many legitimate emails are being filtered out that I will never receive; and how many opportunities and business mail were lost. I would never know. To minimize the impact of a spam filter, I style the content of my emails not to contain buzz words that would alarm the spam filter. And if I need information from a vendor or contractor that would of necessity have words similar to those found in spam in it, I have it faxed to me. We're only trying to avoid the robbers that lurk in the bushes as we go about our business, that's the game. Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:10 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list? Is there anything the 'list' can to do stop it" I thought that is why my computer has a "delete" button!Don href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 10/28/2008 10:04 AM


    Message 21


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    Time: 01:48:15 PM PST US
    From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    Nico is just referring to spam filters in general.- There is-a tremendo us amount of work done behind the scenes of a web-page or chat portal.- F ilters are just an annoying fact of life. - Do I smell SPAM burning?.... ---------------------------------------------------------- Now for something completely different. - Do I need an Original POH onboard or can one of the 'reprints" offered on t he internet do the job?- Any recommendations? - thanks. - Willis. --- On Thu, 10/30/08, Don <dongirod@bellsouth.net> wrote: From: Don <dongirod@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Nico; - I don't think a political spam is "robbers that lurk in the bushes" and as wer said he did, just put the sender in the blocked email list. - I agree, it-does not belong on the list, which as I understand it, it is not on the list, but I don't make a big deal out of it. - Don ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:46 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Indeed, there is a delete button. But sometimes it can be so overwhelming, not to mention the scare it puts into a list operator when that happens (wh ere else did they get into?), that it is a real and expensive pest. - I live and die by my emails and receive about 300 emails a day. A couple of years ago I hosted my own email servers and my daily email receipt rate ra n in the thousands of about 80% being spam, ugly and less ugly. Eventually I gave up and had my servers moved to a hosted application with spam filter ing and staff that does nothing else but keep it up to date, which brought the rate down into the low hundreds; cutting the incidences of spam down to about 10% that still slip past the filters. I could never answer the quest ion of how many legitimate emails are being filtered out that I will never receive; and how many opportunities and business mail were lost. I would ne ver know. To minimize the impact of a spam filter, I style the content of m y emails not to contain buzz words that would alarm the spam filter. And if I need information from a vendor or contractor that would of necessity hav e words similar to those found in spam in it, I have it faxed to me. - We're only trying to avoid the robbers that lurk in the bushes as we go abo ut our business, that's the game. - Nico - From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: - - - "Has anyone else been getting Election SPAM via the Commander-list?- Is t here anything the 'list' can to do stop it"--I thought that is why my c omputer has a "delete" button!Don- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c - - Release Date: 10/28/2008 10:04 AM =0A=0A=0A


    Message 22


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    Time: 02:04:14 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    Good Afternoon Willis, My read would be that you need whatever is listed in the Type Certificate Data Sheet. If you don't have access to the TCDS, your IA should have the information. While I am certainly no expert on such things, if you will send me data concerning your aircraft such as the model number and serial number, I will see if I can find the required information. Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/30/2008 3:49:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, drwer2@yahoo.com writes: Nico is just referring to spam filters in general. There is a tremendous amount of work done behind the scenes of a web-page or chat portal. Filters are just an annoying fact of life. Do I smell SPAM burning?.... ---------------------------------------------------------- Now for something completely different. Do I need an Original POH onboard or can one of the 'reprints" offered on the internet do the job? Any recommendations? thanks. Willis.


    Message 23


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    Time: 02:04:55 PM PST US
    From: "Don" <dongirod@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: mander-List:
    "Do I smell SPAM burning?...." Not from me! To answer your question indirectly. I believe you can still purchase POH. I have both my original and a "new one" give to me by a friend. Don




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