Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 11:21 PM - Reminder (Matt Dralle)
1. 06:48 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
2. 07:04 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (willis robison)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (Moe-rosspistons)
4. 07:25 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (Moe-rosspistons)
5. 07:48 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (willis robison)
6. 08:14 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (Moe-rosspistons)
7. 08:18 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (Moe-rosspistons)
8. 09:04 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (willis robison)
9. 09:16 AM - evolution (Dan Farmer)
10. 09:27 AM - Re: evolution (John Vormbaum)
11. 09:37 AM - James Bond (peter bichier)
12. 10:23 AM - Re: 680F cruise performance (Barry Collman)
13. 10:23 AM - Re: James Bond (Barry Collman)
14. 12:24 PM - Re: Obama - now evolution ()
15. 12:32 PM - Re: 680F cruise performance (willis robison)
16. 12:45 PM - Re: 680F cruise performance (Barry Collman)
17. 01:03 PM - Re: 680F cruise performance (willis robison)
18. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: possessed (WINGFLYER1@aol.com)
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Dear Listers,
Just a quick reminder that November is the annual List Fund Raiser. The Matronics
Lists are 100% member supported and all of the operational costs are provided
for my your Contributions during this time of the year.
Your personal Contribution makes a difference and keeps all of the Matronics Email
Lists and Forums completely ad-free.
Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | 680F cruise performance |
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F? Im estimating a ferry
flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could really use your
experience.
thanks.
wer
>
_____
Message 2
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| Subject: | 680F cruise performance |
Thanks Randy, JB.- Thats- sounds reasonable for a low-level flight.
-
Do you guys every fly on oxy?- I would think your economy would be much b
etter at a higher altitude.- And with oodles of power to get there quickl
y, it should be a snap.- I guess with the Time to climb and then let down
, that may not be cost-effective.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
-
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
-
-
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA - 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
-
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
-
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH.- jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
-
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F?-- Im estimating a ferr
y flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could really use your exp
erience.
-
thanks.
-
wer
-
-
>
- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Hi Willis,
I have a 680Fp which is the same as a 680F except that it has all of the
pressurization equipment in the back. If you have enough oxygen fly
between 16,000 and 18,000 ft., 100' f lean of peak, about 180 to 190
knots true air speed at about 42/44 gallons per hour. Do not try to fly
below about 11,000 feet or your fuel burn will be 55 gallons per hour or
more. If you feel uncomfortable flying lean of peak (which many do)
then go 100 rich of peak and your fuel burn will be slightly more of
course. Sometimes, running that much lean of peak causes the engines to
run a little rough, however, you are so lean that the cyl temps will be
cool and the engine basically "can't hurt its self".
Moe Mills
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
N680RR
680Fp
From: willis robison
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:58 PM
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F? Im estimating a
ferry flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could really use
your experience.
thanks.
wer
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Willis,
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000 ft. Anything below
this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance traveled suffers.
The one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is mild and the headwind
at 18,000 is bad.
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB. Thats sounds reasonable for a low-level
flight.
Do you guys every fly on oxy? I would think your economy would be
much better at a higher altitude. And with oodles of power to get there
quickly, it should be a snap. I guess with the Time to climb and then
let down, that may not be cost-effective.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 6:29 AM
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55 gph in
my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F? Im
estimating a ferry flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could
really use your experience.
thanks.
wer
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Thanks Moe, -makes a lot of sense.-- I would think that an IGSO engin
e swinging +90" props would want to live where they- are most efficient.
-
no chance of +18k?- the supposed service ceiling is in the mid to uppper
20's I thought.- Im looking at a bare plane, no interior as its a former
aerial survey craft.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Willis,
-
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000 ft.- Anything below
this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance traveled suffers.- Th
e one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is mild and the headwind at 18
,000 is bad.
-
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB.- Thats- sounds reasonable for a low-level flight.
-
Do you guys every fly on oxy?- I would think your economy would be much b
etter at a higher altitude.- And with oodles of power to get there quickl
y, it should be a snap.- I guess with the Time to climb and then let down
, that may not be cost-effective.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
-
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA - 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH.- jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
-
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F?-- Im estimating a ferr
y flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could really use your exp
erience.
-
thanks.
-
wer
-
-
>
- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
=0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Willis,
I generally never fly in class "A" airspace, therefore I can't say with
authority. When I first purchased the plane about 10 years ago I tried
flying in the the low 20's and it didn't seem to be worth the trouble.
Since my bird is pressurized the oxygen tank is only 22 cubic feet which
seems to last about an hour with four people and pressurized flight
above about 21,000 ft. (can't remember exactly) is prohibited by
placard, so the downsides of higher flight generally outnumber the
upsides. The exception to my self imposed 17,999 foot rule is to get
over weather and then descend ASAP.
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Moe, makes a lot of sense. I would think that an IGSO
engine swinging +90" props would want to live where they are most
efficient.
no chance of +18k? the supposed service ceiling is in the mid to
uppper 20's I thought. Im looking at a bare plane, no interior as its a
former aerial survey craft.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 7:24 AM
Willis,
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000 ft.
Anything below this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance
traveled suffers. The one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is
mild and the headwind at 18,000 is bad.
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB. Thats sounds reasonable for a
low-level flight.
Do you guys every fly on oxy? I would think your economy
would be much better at a higher altitude. And with oodles of power to
get there quickly, it should be a snap. I guess with the Time to climb
and then let down, that may not be cost-effective.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA
<rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 6:29 AM
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55
gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F?
Im estimating a ferry flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and
could really use your experience.
thanks.
wer
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Willis,
One further thought. Your plane will be MUCH lighter than N680RR. With
all of the "stuff" that it has, most flights are made at near gross
weight (about 8,000 lbs.), and the observations made in these emails are
based on this.
Your plane should be a rocket compared to N680RR
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Moe, makes a lot of sense. I would think that an IGSO
engine swinging +90" props would want to live where they are most
efficient.
no chance of +18k? the supposed service ceiling is in the mid to
uppper 20's I thought. Im looking at a bare plane, no interior as its a
former aerial survey craft.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 7:24 AM
Willis,
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000 ft.
Anything below this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance
traveled suffers. The one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is
mild and the headwind at 18,000 is bad.
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB. Thats sounds reasonable for a
low-level flight.
Do you guys every fly on oxy? I would think your economy
would be much better at a higher altitude. And with oodles of power to
get there quickly, it should be a snap. I guess with the Time to climb
and then let down, that may not be cost-effective.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA
<rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 6:29 AM
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55
gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F?
Im estimating a ferry flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and
could really use your experience.
thanks.
wer
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Well, there will be ferry tanks for fuel and oil.- The size of which depe
nds upon the route taken.- This is a special ferry operation that will ha
ve extended tracks over long stretches of either water or some "not-so hosp
itable" territory.- My initial estimate is for another 100 gal fuel and 2
0 gal oil. (780+ lbs) so the initial TOW may be near max.-
-
Naturally a more benign route would make this a lot easier.-
-
All Diamonds start out "In-The Rough".....its what you put into them that m
ake them shine.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Willis,
-
One further thought.- Your plane will be MUCH lighter than N680RR.- Wit
h all of the "stuff" that it has, most flights are made at near gross weigh
t (about 8,000 lbs.), and the observations made in these emails are based o
n this.
Your plane should be a rocket compared to N680RR
-
Moe
-
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Moe, -makes a lot of sense.-- I would think that an IGSO engin
e swinging +90" props would want to live where they- are most efficient.
-
no chance of +18k?- the supposed service ceiling is in the mid to uppper
20's I thought.- Im looking at a bare plane, no interior as its a former
aerial survey craft.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Willis,
-
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000 ft.- Anything below
this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance traveled suffers.- Th
e one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is mild and the headwind at 18
,000 is bad.
-
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB.- Thats- sounds reasonable for a low-level flight.
-
Do you guys every fly on oxy?- I would think your economy would be much b
etter at a higher altitude.- And with oodles of power to get there quickl
y, it should be a snap.- I guess with the Time to climb and then let down
, that may not be cost-effective.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA - 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH.- jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
-
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F?-- Im estimating a ferr
y flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could really use your exp
erience.
-
thanks.
-
wer
-
-
>
- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
=0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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This is great-BETTER THAN SANTA CLAUS.- You guys have convinced me about
evolution.- I just buried a couple of aluminum cans.- In six billion ye
ars I expect to have a new 500B.- In the mean time I ll keep my old one.
-
dan f
-
-=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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Or, you could pray for one and God will miracle you a brand new 500B.
I'm sure that'll work, and much faster. Your comparison leaves a little
to be desired, as aluminum is non-organic and can't evolve ;-). I'm sure
God is laughing at both of us anyway, right now.
/J
PS: Isn't the sun due to blow up into a Red Giant in only 2 Billion
years? Better hustle on those cans...
Dan Farmer wrote:
> This is great-*BETTER THAN SANTA CLAUS*. You guys have convinced me
> about evolution. I just buried a couple of aluminum cans. In six
> billion years I expect to have a new 500B. In the mean time I ll keep
> my old one.
>
> dan f
>
>
>
>
> *
>
> *
Message 11
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I did notice too! seems a "modernized one" has wing tips... hey for a
bond movie had to choose a refurbished one... seems also that they
have plenty of planes flying in that movie too!
I guess the only one who might have seen it is Barry since it was
premiered on the other side of the pond...
On Nov 6, 2008, at 1:03 AM, nico css wrote:
> Has anyone seen the Commander in the James Bond movie trailer
> Quantum of Solace? It appears very briefly in the background of one
> of the scenes.
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Hi Willis,
What's the Serial Number or "N" number of this former survey Commander?
And, where's it being ferried from and to?
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Well, there will be ferry tanks for fuel and oil. The size of
which depends upon the route taken. This is a special ferry operation
that will have extended tracks over long stretches of either water or
some "not-so hospitable" territory. My initial estimate is for another
100 gal fuel and 20 gal oil. (780+ lbs) so the initial TOW may be near
max.
Naturally a more benign route would make this a lot easier.
All Diamonds start out "In-The Rough".....its what you put into
them that make them shine.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons
<moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 8:17 AM
Willis,
One further thought. Your plane will be MUCH lighter than
N680RR. With all of the "stuff" that it has, most flights are made at
near gross weight (about 8,000 lbs.), and the observations made in these
emails are based on this.
Your plane should be a rocket compared to N680RR
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:45 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Moe, makes a lot of sense. I would think that
an IGSO engine swinging +90" props would want to live where they are
most efficient.
no chance of +18k? the supposed service ceiling is in
the mid to uppper 20's I thought. Im looking at a bare plane, no
interior as its a former aerial survey craft.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons
<moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 7:24 AM
Willis,
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000
ft. Anything below this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance
traveled suffers. The one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is
mild and the headwind at 18,000 is bad.
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB. Thats sounds reasonable for
a low-level flight.
Do you guys every fly on oxy? I would think
your economy would be much better at a higher altitude. And with oodles
of power to get there quickly, it should be a snap. I guess with the
Time to climb and then let down, that may not be cost-effective.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA
<rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA
<rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 6:29 AM
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true,
and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
------------------------------------------------------
From:
owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
Gentlemen,
Are there any active members that own a
AC 680F? Im estimating a ferry flight and need the best altitude/fuel
burn and could really use your experience.
thanks.
wer
>
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
Message 13
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Hi All,
Nope - not a big movie fan, so not seen the Commander!
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: peter bichier
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: Commander-List: James Bond
I did notice too! seems a "modernized one" has wing tips... hey for a
bond movie had to choose a refurbished one... seems also that they have
plenty of planes flying in that movie too!
I guess the only one who might have seen it is Barry since it was
premiered on the other side of the pond...
On Nov 6, 2008, at 1:03 AM, nico css wrote:
Has anyone seen the Commander in the James Bond movie trailer
Quantum of Solace? It appears very briefly in the background of one of
the scenes.
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Obama - now evolution |
Hi John,
I respect your position. For me intelligent design does not equal religion.
Religion is when the "possessor" of that intelligence behind the design is
worshipped - i.e. that we believe that the intelligence wants to be
worshipped. Scientifically we do not know that this intelligence wants to be
worshipped. That's belief, faith, and religion.
My mother, for example, believed in intelligent design - that something made
us, but did not go along with the idea that the "creator" wanted to be
worshipped. "What you need to understand, Andrew," she would often tell me,
"is that religion is a choice which has no scientific bearing. There is
science in intelligent design. Go and read what Fred Hoyle says about it."
I must confess I never did read Fred Hoyle's theories. I respected her
position and I respect anybody's choice of religion (or non-religion).
Scientifically speaking I do believe in intelligent design.
I also respect Dan's "belief" that </sarcasm on> he might get a commander
out of the pop-cans he buried in his back yard. </sarcasm off> </grin
on> Sorry Dan, it won't evolve into a Twin Commander. Something else, a
Piper, Cessna, or Beechcraft, perhaps? For a Twin Commander there has to be
intelligence behind it! </grin off>
God bless,
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Obama
>
>
> Unbelievable. I probably shouldn't be posting this, but I can't help
> myself.
>
> Andrew, if it has the phrase "Intelligent Design" in it, it has religion
> in it. Scientists didn't invent that phrase, churches did. Better yet,
> politically savvy church leaders did, as "Intelligent Design" sounds more
> scientific and less inflammatory than "Creationism", even though there
> isn't any science there.
>
> Pretty soon I'm sure we'll hear the argument about how dinosaurs & people
> were running around together 4,000 years ago. Or that the moon is only
> 6,000 years old.
>
> To me, "Intelligent Design" is a high-wing, 7-or-so seat light twin with a
> fantastic wing, benign handling characteristics and a stupendous useful
> load.
>
> On another note, Dan, your post was fantastic. I hope that the rest of the
> US is as mature as you are. You remind me of soldiers I know; whether they
> voted for the man or not, they all answer the same way: "He is my
> Commander-in-Chief and I will proudly perform my duties for him as
> ordered." I didn't vote for him but I'm more than willing to give him a
> chance to prove he's worthy of the position.
>
> Cheers,
>
> /John
>
> do not archive
>
> andrew.bridget@telus.net wrote:
>> Dan, at the risk of venturing forward and being told I should not post
>> this here.... you said that you believe in God. You might be interested
>> in watching this:
>> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5585125669588896670 There is no
>> religion in this, just pure science. Dean Kenyon, Michael Behe, etc...
>> all very respected scientists have something to say about evolution.
>> God bless,
>> Andrew
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Dan Farmer <mailto:daniellfarmer@yahoo.com>
>> *To:* commander-list-digest@matronics.com
>> <mailto:commander-list-digest@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:47 PM
>> *Subject:* Commander-List: Obama
>>
>> Gentlemen and Ladies,
>> One more opinion and we have all heard about them. As anyone who
>> knows me might guess--I did not vote for Obama. However I think
>> we should give him an opportunity to lead and hope that he can
>> lead and deliver as he has promised. I believe he will be as
>> leftist as his record but I can hope to be wrong. The Democrats and
>> far left hated Bush and constantly belittled him
>> from the first hanging chad. From the beginning they acted and
>> spoke in the most despicable terms. That sank into the crap far
>> deeper than I have ever seen in this country when speaking of a
>> sitting President. I truly believe they acted on the verge of
>> treason as to their actions on the Iraq war after voting for it. I
>> believe they did it all for their own selfish benefit. I also
>> believe there actions and speak cost soldiers their lives.
>> I do not think that anyone should be so rude and crude to Obama. Let
>> us see what is in store. I hope for the sake of the nation
>> that he can lead and deliver what is best for the nation. I hope
>> his idea and philosophy is to teach people to fish, not give them
>> fish. If throwing money at the problem was or is the answer God
>> knows we would have no national problems in this country. As to you
>> people that think I am stupid, dumb or ignorant just
>> because I believe in God, so did Einstein. Can your IQ top that?
>> "If you are a conservative when you are 21 you have no heart, If
>> you are a liberal when you are 40 you have no brain" Winston
>> Churchill.
>> dan farmer
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>>
>> 3D============================================
>> href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> 3D============================================
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
I dont have the SN, but the tail No. is ZK-CDK of new zealand.- I havent
decided to purchase it yet, Im still adding up all the expenses.
-
It may be cheaper just to immigrate to NZ.- Lovely place....and I really
like the ocean too.-
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Hi Willis,
-
What's the Serial Number or "N" number of this-former survey-Commander?
And, where's it being ferried from and to?
-
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Well, there will be ferry tanks for fuel and oil.- The size of which depe
nds upon the route taken.- This is a special ferry operation that will ha
ve extended tracks over long stretches of either water or some "not-so hosp
itable" territory.- My initial estimate is for another 100 gal fuel and 2
0 gal oil. (780+ lbs) so the initial TOW may be near max.-
-
Naturally a more benign route would make this a lot easier.-
-
All Diamonds start out "In-The Rough".....its what you put into them that m
ake them shine.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Willis,
-
One further thought.- Your plane will be MUCH lighter than N680RR.- Wit
h all of the "stuff" that it has, most flights are made at near gross weigh
t (about 8,000 lbs.), and the observations made in these emails are based o
n this.
Your plane should be a rocket compared to N680RR
-
Moe
-
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Moe, -makes a lot of sense.-- I would think that an IGSO engin
e swinging +90" props would want to live where they- are most efficient.
-
no chance of +18k?- the supposed service ceiling is in the mid to uppper
20's I thought.- Im looking at a bare plane, no interior as its a former
aerial survey craft.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Willis,
-
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000 ft.- Anything below
this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance traveled suffers.- Th
e one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is mild and the headwind at 18
,000 is bad.
-
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB.- Thats- sounds reasonable for a low-level flight.
-
Do you guys every fly on oxy?- I would think your economy would be much b
etter at a higher altitude.- And with oodles of power to get there quickl
y, it should be a snap.- I guess with the Time to climb and then let down
, that may not be cost-effective.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
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I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA - 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH.- jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
-
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F?-- Im estimating a ferr
y flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could really use your exp
erience.
-
thanks.
-
wer
-
-
>
- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
=0A=0A=0A
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Hi Willis,
OK - thanks for letting me know.
As you know, it's a 680F, s/n 1289-132.
So, that makes it the 1289th production Commander and the 132nd 680F
built.
It's been in New Zealand all its life, apart from an initial
registration of N78395 and with just the one owner too, although they
have had a couple of name changes and was initially owned jointly with
the New Zealand Land & Survey Department
Was initially Certificated August 23rd 1963.
Should imagine it's been a well-maintained example, so sincerely hope
everything works out well for you.
If you'd like a suitable note endorsing its purchase to show "her
indoors" . . . just ask ;-)
Very Best Regards,
Barry
P.S. I think Bert Berry has also asked which one you are ferrying.
He's a good source of info for me and he'll respect the privacy of the
info if you tell him.
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
I dont have the SN, but the tail No. is ZK-CDK of new zealand.
I havent decided to purchase it yet, Im still adding up all the
expenses.
It may be cheaper just to immigrate to NZ. Lovely place....and
I really like the ocean too.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Barry Collman
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 10:22 AM
Hi Willis,
What's the Serial Number or "N" number of this former survey
Commander?
And, where's it being ferried from and to?
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Well, there will be ferry tanks for fuel and oil. The
size of which depends upon the route taken. This is a special ferry
operation that will have extended tracks over long stretches of either
water or some "not-so hospitable" territory. My initial estimate is for
another 100 gal fuel and 20 gal oil. (780+ lbs) so the initial TOW may
be near max.
Naturally a more benign route would make this a lot
easier.
All Diamonds start out "In-The Rough".....its what you
put into them that make them shine.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons
<moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 8:17 AM
Willis,
One further thought. Your plane will be MUCH
lighter than N680RR. With all of the "stuff" that it has, most flights
are made at near gross weight (about 8,000 lbs.), and the observations
made in these emails are based on this.
Your plane should be a rocket compared to N680RR
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:45 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Moe, makes a lot of sense. I would
think that an IGSO engine swinging +90" props would want to live where
they are most efficient.
no chance of +18k? the supposed service
ceiling is in the mid to uppper 20's I thought. Im looking at a bare
plane, no interior as its a former aerial survey craft.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons
<moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons
<moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 7:24 AM
Willis,
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000
to 18,000 ft. Anything below this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs.
distance traveled suffers. The one exception is if the headwind at
10,000 is mild and the headwind at 18,000 is bad.
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
Thanks Randy, JB. Thats sounds
reasonable for a low-level flight.
Do you guys every fly on oxy? I would
think your economy would be much better at a higher altitude. And with
oodles of power to get there quickly, it should be a snap. I guess with
the Time to climb and then let down, that may not be cost-effective.
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA
<rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA
<rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 6:29
AM
I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots
true, and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
------------------------------------------------
From:
owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10
PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise
performance
Gentlemen,
Are there any active members that own a
AC 680F? Im estimating a ferry flight and need the best altitude/fuel
burn and could really use your experience.
thanks.
wer
>
------------------------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
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3D
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 680F cruise performance |
Thanks Barry, Ive copied him on this reply.
-
Ill let you know if it comes together.-
-
So far, it appears to be very well taken care of, with few real issues.-
one engine is near TBO but doesnt appear to have any issues at all.- It m
ay take the whole "village" to bring this one home.- As you can imagine,
the shortes- and least expensive route is the friendliest, but the most u
nforgiving.- The path "most traveled by", is almost 20k mi with more poli
tical (and military) obstacles than environmental ones.
-
I dont have my hopes up yet; I prefer to let the numbers fall where they ma
y.
-
thanks-
wer
-
-
-
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Hi Willis,
-
OK - thanks for letting me know.
As you know, it's a 680F, s/n 1289-132.
So, that makes it the 1289th production Commander and the 132nd 680F built.
-
It's been in New Zealand all its life, apart from an initial registration o
f N78395 and with just the one owner too, although they have had a couple o
f name changes and was initially owned jointly with the New Zealand Land &
Survey Department
-
Was initially Certificated August 23rd 1963.
-
Should imagine it's been a well-maintained example, so sincerely hope every
thing works out well for you.
If you'd like a suitable note endorsing its purchase to show "her indoors"
. . . just ask ;-)
-
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-
P.S. I think Bert Berry has also asked which one you are ferrying.
He's a good source of info for me and he'll respect the privacy of the info
if you tell him.
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
I dont have the SN, but the tail No. is ZK-CDK of new zealand.- I havent
decided to purchase it yet, Im still adding up all the expenses.
-
It may be cheaper just to immigrate to NZ.- Lovely place....and I really
like the ocean too.-
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Hi Willis,
-
What's the Serial Number or "N" number of this-former survey-Commander?
And, where's it being ferried from and to?
-
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Well, there will be ferry tanks for fuel and oil.- The size of which depe
nds upon the route taken.- This is a special ferry operation that will ha
ve extended tracks over long stretches of either water or some "not-so hosp
itable" territory.- My initial estimate is for another 100 gal fuel and 2
0 gal oil. (780+ lbs) so the initial TOW may be near max.-
-
Naturally a more benign route would make this a lot easier.-
-
All Diamonds start out "In-The Rough".....its what you put into them that m
ake them shine.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Willis,
-
One further thought.- Your plane will be MUCH lighter than N680RR.- Wit
h all of the "stuff" that it has, most flights are made at near gross weigh
t (about 8,000 lbs.), and the observations made in these emails are based o
n this.
Your plane should be a rocket compared to N680RR
-
Moe
-
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Moe, -makes a lot of sense.-- I would think that an IGSO engin
e swinging +90" props would want to live where they- are most efficient.
-
no chance of +18k?- the supposed service ceiling is in the mid to uppper
20's I thought.- Im looking at a bare plane, no interior as its a former
aerial survey craft.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Willis,
-
Your plane wants to fly its best at 16,000 to 18,000 ft.- Anything below
this altitude and the fuel compsuntion vs. distance traveled suffers.- Th
e one exception is if the headwind at 10,000 is mild and the headwind at 18
,000 is bad.
-
Moe
From: willis robison
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Thanks Randy, JB.- Thats- sounds reasonable for a low-level flight.
-
Do you guys every fly on oxy?- I would think your economy would be much b
etter at a higher altitude.- And with oodles of power to get there quickl
y, it should be a snap.- I guess with the Time to climb and then let down
, that may not be cost-effective.
-
wer
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net> wrote:
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
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I flight plan 10K to 12K at 190 knots true, and 52 to 55 gph in my 680F.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA - 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Above 10K, 200kts @55GPH.- jb
-----Original Message-----
From: willis robison <drwer2@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: 680F cruise performance
Gentlemen,
-
Are there any active members that own a AC 680F?-- Im estimating a ferr
y flight and need the best altitude/fuel burn and could really use your exp
erience.
-
thanks.
-
wer
-
-
>
- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution< span>
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Message 18
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I really wish I could have been here to get into this one. I can only echo
your sentiments because they reflect my love and loyalty for this country as
well. How did we get so many idiots in this country? I know our education
system certainly leaves a lot to be desired but I just can`t understand the
growing ignorance and lack of love for the BEST country on this planet! Perfect?
No but has been the very BEST! I only hope we can get it back on track for our
Grand Kids . I am so sorry I missed out. I`m proud of you. Prouid to beYour
friend, Gil
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