---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/02/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:02 AM - Re: Fw: Happy New Year II (Steve W) 2. 08:25 AM - Re: Fw: Happy New Year II (Steve W) 3. 08:54 AM - lessons not learned (Jim Addington) 4. 09:42 AM - Re: Fw: Happy New Year II (yourtcfg@aol.com) 5. 09:52 AM - Re: Fw: Happy New Year II (nico css) 6. 10:38 AM - Re: Fw: Happy New Year II (Steele, Bob) 7. 12:48 PM - Re: Fw: Happy New Year II (Richard & Jacqui Thompson) 8. 04:46 PM - Group Hug? Too soon? (Steve W) 9. 05:32 PM - Re: Group Hug? Too soon? (nico css) 10. 06:16 PM - ATM fraud - watch out! (nico css) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:45 AM PST US From: "Steve W" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Aww beans..... Dan I know enough farmers who were land poor to know what you're talking about. When Kathie and I did our market gardening we used some land of a friend of mine in New Hampshire who was a fifth generation dairy farmer. The town was going to try to tax the manure composting pad as a patio. Dan this is to you personally since now I've caused you offense. As a farmer since a kid, you've worked harder than I have. But nobody has ever handed me anything either. I helped out in my Dad's small struggling company since 11 or so. I've never stopped working. The house we built is on land I cleared. I was up late last night to feed the wood-fired oven I built for my wife's little business so she could go to bed early and wake up at 3:00am... I've just about finished adapting an old plow to put on the newer truck because I can't afford a new one......Etc.. I work my ass off. That's exactly how I took your posting...... I'm logging on to a Commander list and here's a post telling me how I want a handout and how lazy I am. I'll likely never see retirement. The policies that enrichened portfolios and made many people wealthy, sold our manufacturing and now our white-collar work overseas. The Republicans held the House and Senate for how many years? And this is all the evil Democrats fault? Ridiculus. Since I've said it I've got explain it. And I personally apologize to you. But there's millions of our own people in trouble. Some of the poor work damned hard. It just seems like some of the people who have it best, who have had every advantage the country could offer are the angriest of people. Propaganda cuts both ways. Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both entertainers who manipulate facts and create caricatures of an opposite 'side' to stir passions and sell air time. A steady diet of either has one coming to despise this 'other side'. Both of them start with some grain of truth, but are often full of shit and vastly over-simplistic if you actually look at the facts. Everything can only exist as polar opposites. 'Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist'.... 'Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown'. I've seen Fox news putting on the kookiest far lefties to knock down. The far left press is just as goofy. 'Bush is evil'. Each side and each performer relies on demonizing others and relieving the listener of responsibility. The extremes are unable to ackowledge a rational center. The far left might seek to silence the far right, but the far right has become more politically correct than left. It's not anyone's business, but I voted for Democrats, Republicans and Independents in this last election because in each case I thought they were the best for (at) the job. I would welcome genuine conservatism. How these last eight years could be called conservative in almost any respect is way beyond me. People mostly voted for Obama because he acquited himself well through the campain, was intelligent, and appeared he might be able to govern competantly. (P.S. I ain't Snow White. I watched my Father's business struggle while others were eliglble for grants he couldn't get. I never finshed school as others were given money and I was working full-time. The company I work for is still competing unfairly against competant 'diasadvantaged' businesses. I think this stuff has run it's course.) (P.P.S. I still ain't Snow White. I'm no better than anyone else. I genuinely don't understand how those that claim to be religious, square the tenants and teachings with what they do and believe.) You may not want it from me, but I genuinely wish you sir a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year. Steven Welebny (Opinions are mine, and not of the company I work for.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting. That was not my intention. In fact I was surprised at some of the responses. So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking. I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country. Why would I think that? Because that is what they are generally whaling about. Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think. Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes. Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life. From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked. Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone. It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike. Including most of the latest bailouts. (Bush is no conservative) It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it. I do not understand. It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize contentment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives. They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education. All the while railing about the lack of free speech. Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host. I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one who calls me "the perpetually angry white wealthy guy". I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it) I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard. Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:00 AM PST US From: "Steve W" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Mr. Bob Steele, My opinions are my own and not that of the company I work for. That's important. They are good folks and we're actually quite conservative and careful. (The area has its share of liberals, some more so than others. These old mill and company towns really seemed to breed a working class that thinks of companies as us and them.... Something of a union mentality......Oops....Hehe.) I am not nearly as liberal as you think. You wouldn't know a real one if they bit you in the butt. Most of the off topic political posts here are 'angry' and blame everyone else for the country's ills. I've never seen one that says, 'boy was that dumb!' I actually like Dan. Milt too. (Thought hopefully we won't have to fight first, before I can give him a hug.) Have a happy and good New Year. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Steele, Bob To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Dan, Obviously the ATP Lear Jet and the Col-East type folks were offended. Apparently you should not have shared your "vast knowledge" and revealed to all you are a wealthy white guy who is angry (perpetual at that) and blaming everyone except for your fellow angry white guy buddies. (The ability to discern someone's race, sustainability, sexual orientation, net worth, and temperament from an e-mail posting is a gift some liberals have. Contumely comes easy for some.) Hopefully these two have helped you realize you should dumb it down a little or at least wake up? It will help if you can adopt a new mantra, "each according to his need". Just keep saying that over and over and over again. Eventually you will feel better. Hang in there - because those of us who know you - really like you! And most of us agree with you! Happy New Year! Bob AC-50, F1- Rocket, AX-8 Commercial Pilot Past Golden Rudder Pedal Recipient Currently searching for John Galt, $ Fellow proud conservative ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Farmer Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting. That was not my intention. In fact I was surprised at some of the responses. So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking. I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country. Why would I think that? Because that is what they are generally whaling about. Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think. Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes. Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life. From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked. Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone. It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike. Including most of the latest bailouts. (Bush is no conservative) It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it. I do not understand. It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize contentment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives. They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education. All the while railing about the lack of free speech. Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host. I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one who calls me "the perpetually angry white wealthy guy". I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it) I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard. Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:17 AM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: Commander-List: lessons not learned Guess we'll never learn... --- So what have we learned in 2 millennia? "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero - 55 BC Evidently nothing. Everyone should own a twin commander so it is relevant. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II From: yourtcfg@aol.com Somebody finally got it right!!!!!? Finally!!? jb 'Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown' -----Original Message----- From: Steve W Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Aww beans..... ? Dan I know enough farmers who were land poor to know what you're talking about. When Kathie and I did our market gardening we used some land of a friend of mine in New Hampshire who was a fifth generation dairy farmer. The town was going to try to tax the manure composting pad as a patio. ? Dan this is to you personally since now I've caused you offense. As a farmer?since a kid, you've worked harder than I have. But nobody has ever handed me anything either. I helped out in my Dad's small struggling company since 11 or so. I've never stopped working. The house we built is on land I cleared. I was up late last night to feed the wood-fired oven I built for my wife's little business so she could go to bed early and wake up at 3:00am... I've just about finished adapting an old plow to put on the newer truck because I can't afford a new one......Etc.. I work my ass off. That's exactly how I took your posting...... I'm logging on to a Commander list and here's a post telling me how I want a handout and how lazy I am. I'll likely never see retirement. The policies that enrichened portfolios and made many people wealthy,?sold our manufacturing and now our white-collar work overseas. The Republicans held the House and Senate for how many years? And this is all the evil D emocrats fault? Ridiculus. ? Since I've said it I've got explain it. And I personally apologize to you. But there's millions of our own people in trouble. Some of the poor work damned hard. It just seems like some of the people who have it best, who have had every advantage the country could offer are the angriest of people. Propaganda cuts both ways. Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both entertainers who manipulate?facts and create caricatures of an opposite 'side' to stir passions and sell air time. A steady diet of either has one coming to despise this 'other side'. Both of them start with some grain of truth, but are often full of shit and vastly over-simplistic if you actually look at the facts.?Everything can only exist as polar opposites. 'Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist'.... 'Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown'. I've seen Fox news putting on the kookiest far lefties to knock down. The far left press is just as goofy. 'Bush is evil'. Each si de and each performer relies on demonizing others and relieving the listener of responsibility. The extremes are?unable to ackowledge a rational center. The far left might seek to silence the far right, but the far right has become more politically correct than left. ? It's not anyone's business, but I voted for Democrats, Republicans and Independents in this last election because in each case I thought they were the best for (at) the job. I would welcome genuine conservatism. How these last eight years could be called conservative in almost any respect is way beyond me. People mostly voted for Obama because he acquited himself well through the campain, was intelligent, and appeared he might be able to govern competantly. ? (P.S. I ain't Snow White. I watched my Father's business struggle while others were eliglble for grants he couldn't get. I never finshed school as others were given money and I was working full-time. The company I work for is still competing unfairly against competant 'diasadvantaged' businesses. I think this stuff has run it's course.) ? (P.P.S. I still ain't Snow White. I'm no better than anyone else. I genuinely don't understand how those that claim to be religious, square the tenants and teachings with what they do and believe.) ? You may not?want it from me, but I genuinely wish you sir a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year. ? Steven Welebny ? (Opinions are mine, and not of the company I work for.) ? ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting.? That was not my intention.? In fact I was surprised at some of the responses.? So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking.? I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country.? Why would I think that?? Because that is what they are generally whaling about.? Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think.? Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes.? Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life.? From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities? and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked.? Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone.? It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike.? Including most of the latest bailouts.? (Bush is no conservative)? It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it.? I do not understand.? It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize cont entment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are? use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives.? They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education.? All the while railing about the lack of free speech.? Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host.? I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one? who calls me "the perpetually? angry white wealthy guy". ? I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it)? I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard.? Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema? on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer 3D============================================= href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D============================================= href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'http://forums.matronics.com 3D============================================= href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D============================================= ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:17 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Hi Steve, It was quite a revelation for me to realize that you are a conservative at heart. We need you in the conservative camp, then, man. You will notice I didn't say Republican camp, which should address many of the things you raised. Evil Democrats? That would be a grossly unfair statement. Evil liberals? Yes, that would be more accurate and they are found in all of our institutions. If you correct your perception in that respect you will see the difference between Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh. The latter is more than 98% factually accurate in his utterances, independently verified. I don't know anyone (who matters) who said, "Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist..." (a quotation of yours), so perhaps you are lending your ears to hearsay. "Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown" is more accurate although he wasn't alone in it. Your quotation lacks the names of Christopher Dodd, Nancy Pelosi, Franklin Raines, and so on. If you can describe their forcing banks to provide loans to people who cannot pay it back as anything other than socialism, I'd certainly like to hear what it is. Just now legislators are considering increasing gasoline taxes because the lower consumption caused lower tax revenues. Now, answer me this: Did any of the agitators of lower gasoline usage consider the impact of lower tax revenues when they agitated that SUV's should be banned because they are gas-guzzlers? Or when they imposed a gas-guzzler tax on larger automobiles? Or when they introduced CAFE standards which imposed crippling costs on manufacturers? If they didn't they ought to be tarred and feathered and run out of town for shear stupidity or incompetence. But these folks have degrees from top notch schools, so it cannot be stupidity. Realistic people conclude that there must be another motive for their actions. If you can name another than a planned, deliberate move to bankrupt the economy so that it can be brought under government guardianship and eventually socialism, it would be interesting to hear it. Perhaps Obama's comment that we should "spread it [the wealth] around" should give one a clue. Perhaps Barbara Boxer's comment to socialize the economy is a clue. Perhaps Lyndon Johnson's "great society" which consumed trillions of dollars with more people in poverty than before is a clue. Perhaps Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd, Nancy Pelosi and other liberals defending Freddy Mac and Fanny May just before the crash, full-well knowing they are sitting on trillions of dollars of toxic assets, is a clue; utterances that caused many CEO's to go to jail for misrepresenting their company's true state. One can go on and on about the deception, and the bill for all of this has been paid with your hard work, Steve; and you and I both probably will never have the luxury of retirement to pay for the deceptions of the past, too. Go and look at the taxes you pay and not only at the bottom figure that you net each month. See if $16,000 per child per year in education as opposed to less than $10,000 per year for a private school, is a good bang for your buck. See if paying under $2 per gallon for your gasoline is worse than $5, which is what we are being told today. See if you believe it's correct that all the gasoline taxes are funneled into the general fund and then you are asked to pay additional taxes for the infrastructure. See if our automobile industry can compete if they are saddled with a million retirees that earn full benefits adding $1,500 per car to the bottom line (as opposed to Toyota's $120). One shouldn't cry that one is a hard-working individual when one partakes (actively or passively) in the destruction of the institutions that made this country great - institutions that honor and reward hard work. One cannot categorize the evils that befall us in Republican and Democratic camps; they are liberal versus conservative - socialism versus capitalism - pathogen versus host. You are a conservative; you need to see that difference. And that, my friend, is how I read Dan's ire. Nico PS. I am still envious that you get to fly Commanders for a living. N _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Aww beans..... Dan I know enough farmers who were land poor to know what you're talking about. When Kathie and I did our market gardening we used some land of a friend of mine in New Hampshire who was a fifth generation dairy farmer. The town was going to try to tax the manure composting pad as a patio. Dan this is to you personally since now I've caused you offense. As a farmer since a kid, you've worked harder than I have. But nobody has ever handed me anything either. I helped out in my Dad's small struggling company since 11 or so. I've never stopped working. The house we built is on land I cleared. I was up late last night to feed the wood-fired oven I built for my wife's little business so she could go to bed early and wake up at 3:00am... I've just about finished adapting an old plow to put on the newer truck because I can't afford a new one......Etc.. I work my ass off. That's exactly how I took your posting...... I'm logging on to a Commander list and here's a post telling me how I want a handout and how lazy I am. I'll likely never see retirement. The policies that enrichened portfolios and made many people wealthy, sold our manufacturing and now our white-collar work overseas. The Republicans held the House and Senate for how many years? And this is all the evil Democrats fault? Ridiculus. Since I've said it I've got explain it. And I personally apologize to you. But there's millions of our own people in trouble. Some of the poor work damned hard. It just seems like some of the people who have it best, who have had every advantage the country could offer are the angriest of people. Propaganda cuts both ways. Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both entertainers who manipulate facts and create caricatures of an opposite 'side' to stir passions and sell air time. A steady diet of either has one coming to despise this 'other side'. Both of them start with some grain of truth, but are often full of shit and vastly over-simplistic if you actually look at the facts. Everything can only exist as polar opposites. 'Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist'.... 'Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown'. I've seen Fox news putting on the kookiest far lefties to knock down. The far left press is just as goofy. 'Bush is evil'. Each side and each performer relies on demonizing others and relieving the listener of responsibility. The extremes are unable to ackowledge a rational center. The far left might seek to silence the far right, but the far right has become more politically correct than left. It's not anyone's business, but I voted for Democrats, Republicans and Independents in this last election because in each case I thought they were the best for (at) the job. I would welcome genuine conservatism. How these last eight years could be called conservative in almost any respect is way beyond me. People mostly voted for Obama because he acquited himself well through the campain, was intelligent, and appeared he might be able to govern competantly. (P.S. I ain't Snow White. I watched my Father's business struggle while others were eliglble for grants he couldn't get. I never finshed school as others were given money and I was working full-time. The company I work for is still competing unfairly against competant 'diasadvantaged' businesses. I think this stuff has run it's course.) (P.P.S. I still ain't Snow White. I'm no better than anyone else. I genuinely don't understand how those that claim to be religious, square the tenants and teachings with what they do and believe.) You may not want it from me, but I genuinely wish you sir a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year. Steven Welebny (Opinions are mine, and not of the company I work for.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting. That was not my intention. In fact I was surprised at some of the responses. So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking. I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country. Why would I think that? Because that is what they are generally whaling about. Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think. Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes. Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life. From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked. Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone. It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike. Including most of the latest bailouts. (Bush is no conservative) It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it. I do not understand. It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize contentment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives. They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education. All the while railing about the lack of free speech. Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host. I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one who calls me "the perpetually angry white wealthy guy". I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it) I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard. Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:49 AM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II From: "Steele, Bob" If that is true, you wouldn't have gone off Dan like you did. We are all about to get bit in the butt, get ready. ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Mr. Bob Steele, My opinions are my own and not that of the company I work for. That's important. They are good folks and we're actually quite conservative and careful. (The area has its share of liberals, some more so than others. These old mill and company towns really seemed to breed a working class that thinks of companies as us and them.... Something of a union mentality......Oops....Hehe.) I am not nearly as liberal as you think. You wouldn't know a real one if they bit you in the butt. Most of the off topic political posts here are 'angry' and blame everyone else for the country's ills. I've never seen one that says, 'boy was that dumb!' I actually like Dan. Milt too. (Thought hopefully we won't have to fight first, before I can give him a hug.) Have a happy and good New Year. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Steele, Bob To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Dan, Obviously the ATP Lear Jet and the Col-East type folks were offended. Apparently you should not have shared your "vast knowledge" and revealed to all you are a wealthy white guy who is angry (perpetual at that) and blaming everyone except for your fellow angry white guy buddies. (The ability to discern someone's race, sustainability, sexual orientation, net worth, and temperament from an e-mail posting is a gift some liberals have. Contumely comes easy for some.) Hopefully these two have helped you realize you should dumb it down a little or at least wake up? It will help if you can adopt a new mantra, "each according to his need". Just keep saying that over and over and over again. Eventually you will feel better. Hang in there - because those of us who know you - really like you! And most of us agree with you! Happy New Year! Bob AC-50, F1- Rocket, AX-8 Commercial Pilot Past Golden Rudder Pedal Recipient Currently searching for John Galt, $ Fellow proud conservative ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Farmer Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting. That was not my intention. In fact I was surprised at some of the responses. So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking. I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country. Why would I think that? Because that is what they are generally whaling about. Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think. Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes. Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life. From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked. Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone. It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike. Including most of the latest bailouts. (Bush is no conservative) It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it. I do not understand. It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize contentment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives. They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education. All the while railing about the lack of free speech. Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host. I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one who calls me "the perpetually angry white wealthy guy". I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it) I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard. Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:49 PM PST US From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II To all my mates, hope you have a great new year. Now to wade into this discussion. We are now a year and a bit into our own change. Our illustrious leader Kevin Rudd a.k.a KRUDD, Kevin747 , Dudd , Kevin07-mistake08 and disaster09. The way he won power is scarily similar to Obamas rise. Making promises to the great unwashed, offering something for nothing, going to change the world for the better etc. Well it seems as we all know that it is a lot easier to sit in the peanut gallery shouting about how things should be done than actually doing it yourself. One suddenly gets to realize that thing don't really change. Policies that work in fashion carry on working, slowly those that don't change into something that does. We now have a government that is living off the policies of the previous government. Rehashed and proudly touted as their own, but still the policies of old. Everthing he said he was going to change is still the same if not worse. I can not name one person I know who will admit to voting for this dope, even though in the media he is the GREATEST. The Unions financed his rise and were about to get back a lot of their power. Now it seems that they might have been wrong as well. We swapped a Statesman for a public servant. OH BOY ARE WE GOING TO PAY. Regards Richard Owner of a quick rebuild (8 years later) Owner of numerous Piper products Previous recipient of the Golden Pedal Award (now in the hands of Moe) P.S. Dan my boy Forget the politics it will only Pee you off and concentrate on your true calling. Giving retired people a bad name . That story about the dog food was a classic. Up there with the plastic Poo and forgetting to release the brakes at OKC. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Bob Sent: Saturday, 3 January 2009 5:38 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II If that is true, you wouldn't have gone off Dan like you did. We are all about to get bit in the butt, get ready. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Mr. Bob Steele, My opinions are my own and not that of the company I work for. That's important. They are good folks and we're actually quite conservative and careful. (The area has its share of liberals, some more so than others. These old mill and company towns really seemed to breed a working class that thinks of companies as us and them.... Something of a union mentality......Oops....Hehe.) I am not nearly as liberal as you think. You wouldn't know a real one if they bit you in the butt. Most of the off topic political posts here are 'angry' and blame everyone else for the country's ills. I've never seen one that says, 'boy was that dumb!' I actually like Dan. Milt too. (Thought hopefully we won't have to fight first, before I can give him a hug.) Have a happy and good New Year. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Steele, Bob Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Dan, Obviously the ATP Lear Jet and the Col-East type folks were offended. Apparently you should not have shared your "vast knowledge" and revealed to all you are a wealthy white guy who is angry (perpetual at that) and blaming everyone except for your fellow angry white guy buddies. (The ability to discern someone's race, sustainability, sexual orientation, net worth, and temperament from an e-mail posting is a gift some liberals have. Contumely comes easy for some.) Hopefully these two have helped you realize you should dumb it down a little or at least wake up? It will help if you can adopt a new mantra, "each according to his need". Just keep saying that over and over and over again. Eventually you will feel better. Hang in there - because those of us who know you - really like you! And most of us agree with you! Happy New Year! Bob AC-50, F1- Rocket, AX-8 Commercial Pilot Past Golden Rudder Pedal Recipient Currently searching for John Galt, $ Fellow proud conservative _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Farmer Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting. That was not my intention. In fact I was surprised at some of the responses. So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking. I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country. Why would I think that? Because that is what they are generally whaling about. Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think. Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes. Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life. From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked. Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone. It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike. Including most of the latest bailouts. (Bush is no conservative) It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it. I do not understand. It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize contentment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives. They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education. All the while railing about the lack of free speech. Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host. I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one who calls me "the perpetually angry white wealthy guy". I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it) I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard. Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matron ic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:20 PM PST US From: "Steve W" Subject: Commander-List: Group Hug? Too soon? Nico, I appreciate your taking the time to write, and I read carefully. I'll have some comments and questions to you I'll take off list in the next day or so. It seems silly to blame the world's financial collapse on the 'gay' guy. It was a team effort. But I'll listen to what you have to say. I'm extremely lucky to drive a Commander some for work. But if the mapping doesn't stop all going to India, I won't have a job or house let alone be flying anymore. You can ride with me anytime. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 12:51 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Hi Steve, It was quite a revelation for me to realize that you are a conservative at heart. We need you in the conservative camp, then, man. You will notice I didn't say Republican camp, which should address many of the things you raised. Evil Democrats? That would be a grossly unfair statement. Evil liberals? Yes, that would be more accurate and they are found in all of our institutions. If you correct your perception in that respect you will see the difference between Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh. The latter is more than 98% factually accurate in his utterances, independently verified. I don't know anyone (who matters) who said, "Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist..." (a quotation of yours), so perhaps you are lending your ears to hearsay. "Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown" is more accurate although he wasn't alone in it. Your quotation lacks the names of Christopher Dodd, Nancy Pelosi, Franklin Raines, and so on. If you can describe their forcing banks to provide loans to people who cannot pay it back as anything other than socialism, I'd certainly like to hear what it is. Just now legislators are considering increasing gasoline taxes because the lower consumption caused lower tax revenues. Now, answer me this: Did any of the agitators of lower gasoline usage consider the impact of lower tax revenues when they agitated that SUV's should be banned because they are gas-guzzlers? Or when they imposed a gas-guzzler tax on larger automobiles? Or when they introduced CAFE standards which imposed crippling costs on manufacturers? If they didn't they ought to be tarred and feathered and run out of town for shear stupidity or incompetence. But these folks have degrees from top notch schools, so it cannot be stupidity. Realistic people conclude that there must be another motive for their actions. If you can name another than a planned, deliberate move to bankrupt the economy so that it can be brought under government guardianship and eventually socialism, it would be interesting to hear it. Perhaps Obama's comment that we should "spread it [the wealth] around" should give one a clue. Perhaps Barbara Boxer's comment to socialize the economy is a clue. Perhaps Lyndon Johnson's "great society" which consumed trillions of dollars with more people in poverty than before is a clue. Perhaps Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd, Nancy Pelosi and other liberals defending Freddy Mac and Fanny May just before the crash, full-well knowing they are sitting on trillions of dollars of toxic assets, is a clue; utterances that caused many CEO's to go to jail for misrepresenting their company's true state. One can go on and on about the deception, and the bill for all of this has been paid with your hard work, Steve; and you and I both probably will never have the luxury of retirement to pay for the deceptions of the past, too. Go and look at the taxes you pay and not only at the bottom figure that you net each month. See if $16,000 per child per year in education as opposed to less than $10,000 per year for a private school, is a good bang for your buck. See if paying under $2 per gallon for your gasoline is worse than $5, which is what we are being told today. See if you believe it's correct that all the gasoline taxes are funneled into the general fund and then you are asked to pay additional taxes for the infrastructure. See if our automobile industry can compete if they are saddled with a million retirees that earn full benefits adding $1,500 per car to the bottom line (as opposed to Toyota's $120). One shouldn't cry that one is a hard-working individual when one partakes (actively or passively) in the destruction of the institutions that made this country great - institutions that honor and reward hard work. One cannot categorize the evils that befall us in Republican and Democratic camps; they are liberal versus conservative - socialism versus capitalism - pathogen versus host. You are a conservative; you need to see that difference. And that, my friend, is how I read Dan's ire. Nico PS. I am still envious that you get to fly Commanders for a living. N ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:01 AM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Aww beans..... Dan I know enough farmers who were land poor to know what you're talking about. When Kathie and I did our market gardening we used some land of a friend of mine in New Hampshire who was a fifth generation dairy farmer. The town was going to try to tax the manure composting pad as a patio. Dan this is to you personally since now I've caused you offense. As a farmer since a kid, you've worked harder than I have. But nobody has ever handed me anything either. I helped out in my Dad's small struggling company since 11 or so. I've never stopped working. The house we built is on land I cleared. I was up late last night to feed the wood-fired oven I built for my wife's little business so she could go to bed early and wake up at 3:00am... I've just about finished adapting an old plow to put on the newer truck because I can't afford a new one......Etc.. I work my ass off. That's exactly how I took your posting...... I'm logging on to a Commander list and here's a post telling me how I want a handout and how lazy I am. I'll likely never see retirement. The policies that enrichened portfolios and made many people wealthy, sold our manufacturing and now our white-collar work overseas. The Republicans held the House and Senate for how many years? And this is all the evil Democrats fault? Ridiculus. Since I've said it I've got explain it. And I personally apologize to you. But there's millions of our own people in trouble. Some of the poor work damned hard. It just seems like some of the people who have it best, who have had every advantage the country could offer are the angriest of people. Propaganda cuts both ways. Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both entertainers who manipulate facts and create caricatures of an opposite 'side' to stir passions and sell air time. A steady diet of either has one coming to despise this 'other side'. Both of them start with some grain of truth, but are often full of shit and vastly over-simplistic if you actually look at the facts. Everything can only exist as polar opposites. 'Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist'.... 'Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown'. I've seen Fox news putting on the kookiest far lefties to knock down. The far left press is just as goofy. 'Bush is evil'. Each side and each performer relies on demonizing others and relieving the listener of responsibility. The extremes are unable to ackowledge a rational center. The far left might seek to silence the far right, but the far right has become more politically correct than left. It's not anyone's business, but I voted for Democrats, Republicans and Independents in this last election because in each case I thought they were the best for (at) the job. I would welcome genuine conservatism. How these last eight years could be called conservative in almost any respect is way beyond me. People mostly voted for Obama because he acquited himself well through the campain, was intelligent, and appeared he might be able to govern competantly. (P.S. I ain't Snow White. I watched my Father's business struggle while others were eliglble for grants he couldn't get. I never finshed school as others were given money and I was working full-time. The company I work for is still competing unfairly against competant 'diasadvantaged' businesses. I think this stuff has run it's course.) (P.P.S. I still ain't Snow White. I'm no better than anyone else. I genuinely don't understand how those that claim to be religious, square the tenants and teachings with what they do and believe.) You may not want it from me, but I genuinely wish you sir a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year. Steven Welebny (Opinions are mine, and not of the company I work for.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting. That was not my intention. In fact I was surprised at some of the responses. So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking. I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country. Why would I think that? Because that is what they are generally whaling about. Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think. Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes. Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life. From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked. Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone. It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike. Including most of the latest bailouts. (Bush is no conservative) It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it. I do not understand. It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize contentment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives. They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education. All the while railing about the lack of free speech. Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host. I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one who calls me "the perpetually angry white wealthy guy". I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it) I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard. Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www .matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.c om/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:31 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Group Hug? Too soon? Thanks, Steve. I am looking forward to our off-list discussion. 'Gay guy?' Who brought that up? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:45 PM Subject: Commander-List: Group Hug? Too soon? Nico, I appreciate your taking the time to write, and I read carefully. I'll have some comments and questions to you I'll take off list in the next day or so. It seems silly to blame the world's financial collapse on the 'gay' guy. It was a team effort. But I'll listen to what you have to say. I'm extremely lucky to drive a Commander some for work. But if the mapping doesn't stop all going to India, I won't have a job or house let alone be flying anymore. You can ride with me anytime. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 12:51 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Hi Steve, It was quite a revelation for me to realize that you are a conservative at heart. We need you in the conservative camp, then, man. You will notice I didn't say Republican camp, which should address many of the things you raised. Evil Democrats? That would be a grossly unfair statement. Evil liberals? Yes, that would be more accurate and they are found in all of our institutions. If you correct your perception in that respect you will see the difference between Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh. The latter is more than 98% factually accurate in his utterances, independently verified. I don't know anyone (who matters) who said, "Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist..." (a quotation of yours), so perhaps you are lending your ears to hearsay. "Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown" is more accurate although he wasn't alone in it. Your quotation lacks the names of Christopher Dodd, Nancy Pelosi, Franklin Raines, and so on. If you can describe their forcing banks to provide loans to people who cannot pay it back as anything other than socialism, I'd certainly like to hear what it is. Just now legislators are considering increasing gasoline taxes because the lower consumption caused lower tax revenues. Now, answer me this: Did any of the agitators of lower gasoline usage consider the impact of lower tax revenues when they agitated that SUV's should be banned because they are gas-guzzlers? Or when they imposed a gas-guzzler tax on larger automobiles? Or when they introduced CAFE standards which imposed crippling costs on manufacturers? If they didn't they ought to be tarred and feathered and run out of town for shear stupidity or incompetence. But these folks have degrees from top notch schools, so it cannot be stupidity. Realistic people conclude that there must be another motive for their actions. If you can name another than a planned, deliberate move to bankrupt the economy so that it can be brought under government guardianship and eventually socialism, it would be interesting to hear it. Perhaps Obama's comment that we should "spread it [the wealth] around" should give one a clue. Perhaps Barbara Boxer's comment to socialize the economy is a clue. Perhaps Lyndon Johnson's "great society" which consumed trillions of dollars with more people in poverty than before is a clue. Perhaps Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd, Nancy Pelosi and other liberals defending Freddy Mac and Fanny May just before the crash, full-well knowing they are sitting on trillions of dollars of toxic assets, is a clue; utterances that caused many CEO's to go to jail for misrepresenting their company's true state. One can go on and on about the deception, and the bill for all of this has been paid with your hard work, Steve; and you and I both probably will never have the luxury of retirement to pay for the deceptions of the past, too. Go and look at the taxes you pay and not only at the bottom figure that you net each month. See if $16,000 per child per year in education as opposed to less than $10,000 per year for a private school, is a good bang for your buck. See if paying under $2 per gallon for your gasoline is worse than $5, which is what we are being told today. See if you believe it's correct that all the gasoline taxes are funneled into the general fund and then you are asked to pay additional taxes for the infrastructure. See if our automobile industry can compete if they are saddled with a million retirees that earn full benefits adding $1,500 per car to the bottom line (as opposed to Toyota's $120). One shouldn't cry that one is a hard-working individual when one partakes (actively or passively) in the destruction of the institutions that made this country great - institutions that honor and reward hard work. One cannot categorize the evils that befall us in Republican and Democratic camps; they are liberal versus conservative - socialism versus capitalism - pathogen versus host. You are a conservative; you need to see that difference. And that, my friend, is how I read Dan's ire. Nico PS. I am still envious that you get to fly Commanders for a living. N _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II Aww beans..... Dan I know enough farmers who were land poor to know what you're talking about. When Kathie and I did our market gardening we used some land of a friend of mine in New Hampshire who was a fifth generation dairy farmer. The town was going to try to tax the manure composting pad as a patio. Dan this is to you personally since now I've caused you offense. As a farmer since a kid, you've worked harder than I have. But nobody has ever handed me anything either. I helped out in my Dad's small struggling company since 11 or so. I've never stopped working. The house we built is on land I cleared. I was up late last night to feed the wood-fired oven I built for my wife's little business so she could go to bed early and wake up at 3:00am... I've just about finished adapting an old plow to put on the newer truck because I can't afford a new one......Etc.. I work my ass off. That's exactly how I took your posting...... I'm logging on to a Commander list and here's a post telling me how I want a handout and how lazy I am. I'll likely never see retirement. The policies that enrichened portfolios and made many people wealthy, sold our manufacturing and now our white-collar work overseas. The Republicans held the House and Senate for how many years? And this is all the evil Democrats fault? Ridiculus. Since I've said it I've got explain it. And I personally apologize to you. But there's millions of our own people in trouble. Some of the poor work damned hard. It just seems like some of the people who have it best, who have had every advantage the country could offer are the angriest of people. Propaganda cuts both ways. Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both entertainers who manipulate facts and create caricatures of an opposite 'side' to stir passions and sell air time. A steady diet of either has one coming to despise this 'other side'. Both of them start with some grain of truth, but are often full of shit and vastly over-simplistic if you actually look at the facts. Everything can only exist as polar opposites. 'Obama is an insane baby eating radical muslim terrorist'.... 'Barney Frank is responsible for our country's financial meltdown'. I've seen Fox news putting on the kookiest far lefties to knock down. The far left press is just as goofy. 'Bush is evil'. Each side and each performer relies on demonizing others and relieving the listener of responsibility. The extremes are unable to ackowledge a rational center. The far left might seek to silence the far right, but the far right has become more politically correct than left. It's not anyone's business, but I voted for Democrats, Republicans and Independents in this last election because in each case I thought they were the best for (at) the job. I would welcome genuine conservatism. How these last eight years could be called conservative in almost any respect is way beyond me. People mostly voted for Obama because he acquited himself well through the campain, was intelligent, and appeared he might be able to govern competantly. (P.S. I ain't Snow White. I watched my Father's business struggle while others were eliglble for grants he couldn't get. I never finshed school as others were given money and I was working full-time. The company I work for is still competing unfairly against competant 'diasadvantaged' businesses. I think this stuff has run it's course.) (P.P.S. I still ain't Snow White. I'm no better than anyone else. I genuinely don't understand how those that claim to be religious, square the tenants and teachings with what they do and believe.) You may not want it from me, but I genuinely wish you sir a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year. Steven Welebny (Opinions are mine, and not of the company I work for.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:35 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Happy New Year II It seems I might have offended a few individuals in my Happy New Year posting. That was not my intention. In fact I was surprised at some of the responses. So I reread my own posting and realized that I might have overstated my thinking. I really should not have implied that everyone who voted for the O is lazy, although I do believe most do want some type of hand out or make the rich pay or tax the corporations or feel this is just a mean and unfair country. Why would I think that? Because that is what they are generally whaling about. Or perhaps someone, even me, is just misguided. I think that it might be possible that since I gave up my airline job that I have too much time to think. Or possibly since my Dad passed away and we are dealing with estate issues-like death taxes. Or maybe it is that I have worked on this family farm with my dad, mother, and two brothers most of my life. From the age of 5 I have had responsibilities and expectations from my parents as to chores with calves to feed, cows to milk, fields to be worked. Do not think I am feeling sorry for myself as all the family worked hard and quite honestly I would not trade with anyone. It is not that I mind liberals throwing their money at ghost, feeling sorry for every person and supporting every wacky cause that comes down the pike. Including most of the latest bailouts. (Bush is no conservative) It is when they want to take my property-at 55 percent and transfer it to someone who has not earned it. I do not understand. It seems to me when you tax production and subsidize contentment you get less production and more contentment. I have tried not to assail any particular person but as usual I am afraid the left does not like anyone to speak but them. They are use to having the major net works and CNN and public radio and public television in their court for most of our lives. They hate fox news and shout down opposite views in many forums particularly in areas of higher education. All the while railing about the lack of free speech. Now watch as the left tries to bring back the "fairness" doctrine because they cannot seem to bring forth a successful liberal talk show host. I am sorry that I cannot speak with the same amount of love as the one who calls me "the perpetually angry white wealthy guy". I confess I am white and a guy and in this day of modern liberalism I probably am suppose to apologize for that and if I were wealthy I would most certainly be expected to apologize. This is really going to piss them off, "I think there is equal amounts of scientific evidence on both sides of man made global warming. I will only say two more things.(sorry about the strike through but I cant seem to get rid of it) I do not agree with many of the things GW Bush has done but it has been 2665 days since we were attacked and I think he has done very well in that regard. Even though he might have violated the enemies privacy. Finally, I have several liberal friends (ok 2) but my understanding of your thinking is similar to looking at a person with emphasema on oxygen while smoking a cigerrett Proud to be conservative!! dan farmer 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:53 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Commander-List: ATM fraud - watch out! http://www.snopes.com/fraud/atm/atmcamera.asp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.