Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:37 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Brock Lorber)
2. 02:21 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
3. 03:16 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Nancy Gilliam)
4. 03:24 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Barry Collman)
5. 04:46 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (nico css)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Crash in Buffalo |
It's a scary video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946
The ice warning placard in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every
time I saw it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert S.
Randazzo
Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
Don/Nico-
Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes,
and the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the
condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to
get that condition.
I've got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than
100 approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I've never seen
ice build more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the
ice overwhelms the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen
twice, both on flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in
daylight so we were able to rapidly assess the seriousness of our
condition. From the media and NTSB reports- it seems this crew saw just
such a phenomenon- and was in the process of assessing it when cleared
for the approach.
There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on
account of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'll keep
looking, as the lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots.) At
our line, we were required to watch this video as part of our training-
and it gives some fantastic data on how to detect and manage an
incipient tail-plane stall condition on account of ice. One lesson you
take away from this video is that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane
stall the way you would a wing stall, you will lose control of the
airplane.
This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting
to combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As
you guys no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation,
especially for larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly
level.
This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only
just becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best
efforts. Makes you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to
this exact scenario but through luck or providence were able to come out
the other end.
The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been
truly unusual.
Be careful out there, guys.
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
Nico,
I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have
some kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew
commercially did. I am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due
to ice it stalled out, they are now reporting it basically pancaked in
flat not nosed in as previously reported and that the stall warning and
stick pusher were going off.
But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my
prayers.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the
information trickling out of the press conferences and the news media,
one may conclude that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps
were lowered. It appears to be a full roll because the wreck was found
in a flat position (belly down) almost in the opposite direction of the
flight, which makes one think that it rolled and yawed when the flaps
deployed unevenly.
Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps
during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events,
though.
We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers.
Nico
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 2
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| Subject: | Crash in Buffalo |
Wow. That's quite a revealing video. Great learning experience. Thanks
Brock for the link.
Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:35 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
It's a scary video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946
The ice warning placard in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every time
I saw it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert S.
Randazzo
Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
Don/Nico-
Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes, and
the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the
condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get
that condition.
I've got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than 100
approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I've never seen ice build
more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms
the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice, both on
flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able
to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB
reports- it seems this crew saw just such a phenomenon- and was in the
process of assessing it when cleared for the approach.
There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on account
of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'll keep looking, as the
lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots.) At our line, we were
required to watch this video as part of our training- and it gives some
fantastic data on how to detect and manage an incipient tail-plane stall
condition on account of ice. One lesson you take away from this video is
that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing
stall, you will lose control of the airplane.
This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to
combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys
no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation, especially for
larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level.
This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only just
becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best efforts. Makes
you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this exact scenario
but through luck or providence were able to come out the other end.
The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been
truly unusual.
Be careful out there, guys.
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
Nico,
I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have some
kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially did. I
am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out,
they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as
previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were going
off.
But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the information
trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one may conclude
that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were lowered. It appears
to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly
down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which makes one think
that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly.
Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps
during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events,
though.
We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers.
Nico
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 3
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| Subject: | Crash in Buffalo |
Very informative!! I sent it to all of my EAA members and pilot friends.
Thanks much=2C
Roland Gilliam AC 500 6291B
> From: rcdettmer@charter.net> To: commander-list@matronics.com> Subject: R
E: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> Date: Sun=2C 15 Feb 2009 14:20:13 -080
r@charter.net>> > Wow. That's quite a revealing video. Great learning exper
ience. Thanks> Brock for the link.> > Randy Dettmer=2C AIA> 680F/N6253X> >
Dettmer Architecture> 663 Hill Street> San Luis Obispo=2C CA 93405> 805 541
4864 / Fax 805 541 4865> www.dettmerarchitecture.com> > -----Original Mess
age-----> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-co
mmander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber> Sent: Sunday
=2C February 15=2C 2009 1:35 PM> To: commander-list@matronics.com> Subject:
RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > > It's a scary video:> http://vide
o.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946> > The ice warning placa
rd in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every time> I saw it.> > -----
Original Message-----> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on b
ehalf of Robert S.> Randazzo> Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM> To: commander-l
ist@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > Don/Nic
o-> > > > Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airpl
anes=2C and> the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to preven
t the> condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box
to get> that condition.> > > > I've got a few thousand hours flying turbopr
ops and probably more than 100> approaches into KBUF- about half in crap we
ather. I've never seen ice build> more quickly on an airframe in any other
location. When the ice overwhelms> the heated windshield- it is extreme. I
saw this happen twice=2C both on> flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me
were in daylight so we were able> to rapidly assess the seriousness of our
condition. From the media and NTSB> reports- it seems this crew saw just s
uch a phenomenon- and was in the> process of assessing it when cleared for
the approach.> > > > There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-pl
ane stalls on account> of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'l
l keep looking=2C as the> lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots
.) At our line=2C we were> required to watch this video as part of our trai
ning- and it gives some> fantastic data on how to detect and manage an inci
pient tail-plane stall> condition on account of ice. One lesson you take aw
ay from this video is> that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the
way you would a wing> stall=2C you will lose control of the airplane.> > >
> This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to
> combat the tail-plane stall=2C and in doing so spun the airplane. As you
guys> no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation=2C espec
ially for> larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level.>
> > > This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were o
nly just> becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best effo
rts. Makes> you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this ex
act scenario> but through luck or providence were able to come out the othe
r end.> > > > The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions mus
t have been> truly unusual. > > > > Be careful out there=2C guys.> > > > Ro
bert S. Randazzo> > N414C> > > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronic
s.com> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dong
irod> Sent: Saturday=2C February 14=2C 2009 10:18 PM> To: commander-list@ma
tronics.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > > > Nico=2C >
> > > I know very little about that airplane=2C but I would think it would
have some> kind of flap asymmetry built into it=2C everything I flew comme
rcially did. I> am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice
it stalled out=2C> they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not
nosed in as> previously reported and that the stall warning and stick push
er were going> off.> > > > But it does makes us aware of how fragile life i
s=2C they are in my prayers.> > > > Don> > ----- Original Message ----- > >
From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> > > To: commander-list@ma
tronics.com > > Sent: Sunday=2C February 15=2C 2009 12:17 AM> > Subject: Co
mmander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > > > We don't know exactly what happened t
o that flight=2C but from the information> trickling out of the press confe
rences and the news media=2C one may conclude> that the plane violently rol
led over when the flaps were lowered. It appears> to be a full roll because
the wreck was found in a flat position (belly> down) almost in the opposit
e direction of the flight=2C which makes one think> that it rolled and yawe
d when the flaps deployed unevenly.> > > > Some years ago I read about the
dangers of lowering or raising the flaps> during severe ice buildup for thi
s exact reason. Sad chain of events=2C> though.> > > > We hold those who mo
urn in our thoughts and prayers. > > > > Nico> > > > > > > > href="http:/
/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic> s.com/Nav
igator?Commander-List> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m
atronics.com> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.mat
========================> _
==> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Crash in Buffalo |
Hi All,
John Towner is not able to post messages on the chatlist, but can read
the postings.
He has said it's OK to pass on the following:
"When we did our TKS icing certification on our Commanders in 1993-94
FAA engineering had us do "tailplane stall analysis". To explain, the
FAA has an internal "memorandum" on the subject and basically there have
been many "tailplane stall" accidents over the years (the most notable
that probably everyone remembers was the ATR commuter accident going
into ORD). Basically "KIS" trying to keep it simple what happens with
t-tail aircraft when there is just a very small trace of ice on the
horizontal tail and the aircraft is descending as it levels off the
horizontal tail will stall, the aircraft will pitch down and the pilot/s
will pull back and this aggravates the situation and the tail will stall
and everyone knows what happens next. Most "tailplane stall" accidents
occur when the aircraft is descending and levels off say at the initial
approach outside the final approach fix or when the flaps are lowered.
In the ORD accident the ATR was descending from 10,000 to 8,000 and lost
control of the aircraft in the level off and without speculating this
probably happened in Buffalo Friday. After the ORD accident my friends
at FAA engineering contacted me they were considering a TKS strip for
the horizontal tail, the ATR has a pneumatic boot on the horizontal
tail). I remember when I flew our Lear 23 (it did not have ice
protection on the horizontal stab and we could get "tailplane stall" in
just the right conditions, the later Lears 24/25 series did have heated
horizontal stabs) Just to let all of the Commander pilots know when we
did "tailplane stall analysis" on the Commander it really did well, the
FAA had us put pretend ice shapes on the horizontal tail and then we had
to do zero G push overs and we could not get the Commander tail to
stall. To summarize the best thing is to stay out of the ice, the worse
ice I have ever been in was not forecast, ice on the wing is not a big
deal, most aircraft can carry a good amount of wing ice, the killer ice
forms on the bottom side of the wing and the real killer ice is the ice
that forms on the horizontal tail of a t-tail aircraft. Take care and
fly safe."
Thanks John!
Best Regards,
Barry
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Crash in Buffalo |
Wouldn't it be safer to land without flaps when in doubt and deal with
decelerating the aircraft once (safely) on the ground?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber@southwestcirrus.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:35 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
It's a scary video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946
The ice warning placard in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every time
I saw it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert S.
Randazzo
Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
Don/Nico-
Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes, and
the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the
condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get
that condition.
I've got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than 100
approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I've never seen ice build
more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms
the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice, both on
flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able
to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB
reports- it seems this crew saw just such a phenomenon- and was in the
process of assessing it when cleared for the approach.
There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on account
of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'll keep looking, as the
lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots.) At our line, we were
required to watch this video as part of our training- and it gives some
fantastic data on how to detect and manage an incipient tail-plane stall
condition on account of ice. One lesson you take away from this video is
that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing
stall, you will lose control of the airplane.
This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to
combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys
no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation, especially for
larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level.
This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only just
becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best efforts. Makes
you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this exact scenario
but through luck or providence were able to come out the other end.
The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been
truly unusual.
Be careful out there, guys.
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
Nico,
I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have some
kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially did. I
am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out,
they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as
previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were going
off.
But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the information
trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one may conclude
that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were lowered. It appears
to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly
down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which makes one think
that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly.
Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps
during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events,
though.
We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers.
Nico
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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