---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/15/09: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:37 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Brock Lorber) 2. 02:21 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 3. 03:16 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Nancy Gilliam) 4. 03:24 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Barry Collman) 5. 04:46 PM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (nico css) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:28 PM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo From: "Brock Lorber" It's a scary video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946 The ice warning placard in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every time I saw it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Don/Nico- Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes, and the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get that condition. I've got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than 100 approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I've never seen ice build more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice, both on flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB reports- it seems this crew saw just such a phenomenon- and was in the process of assessing it when cleared for the approach. There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on account of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'll keep looking, as the lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots.) At our line, we were required to watch this video as part of our training- and it gives some fantastic data on how to detect and manage an incipient tail-plane stall condition on account of ice. One lesson you take away from this video is that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing stall, you will lose control of the airplane. This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation, especially for larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level. This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only just becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best efforts. Makes you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this exact scenario but through luck or providence were able to come out the other end. The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been truly unusual. Be careful out there, guys. Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Nico, I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have some kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially did. I am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out, they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were going off. But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the information trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one may conclude that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were lowered. It appears to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which makes one think that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly. Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events, though. We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers. Nico href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:10 PM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Wow. That's quite a revealing video. Great learning experience. Thanks Brock for the link. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:35 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo It's a scary video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946 The ice warning placard in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every time I saw it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Don/Nico- Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes, and the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get that condition. I've got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than 100 approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I've never seen ice build more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice, both on flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB reports- it seems this crew saw just such a phenomenon- and was in the process of assessing it when cleared for the approach. There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on account of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'll keep looking, as the lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots.) At our line, we were required to watch this video as part of our training- and it gives some fantastic data on how to detect and manage an incipient tail-plane stall condition on account of ice. One lesson you take away from this video is that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing stall, you will lose control of the airplane. This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation, especially for larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level. This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only just becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best efforts. Makes you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this exact scenario but through luck or providence were able to come out the other end. The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been truly unusual. Be careful out there, guys. Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Nico, I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have some kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially did. I am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out, they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were going off. But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the information trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one may conclude that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were lowered. It appears to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which makes one think that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly. Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events, though. We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers. Nico href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:12 PM PST US From: Nancy Gilliam Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Very informative!! I sent it to all of my EAA members and pilot friends. Thanks much=2C Roland Gilliam AC 500 6291B > From: rcdettmer@charter.net> To: commander-list@matronics.com> Subject: R E: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> Date: Sun=2C 15 Feb 2009 14:20:13 -080 r@charter.net>> > Wow. That's quite a revealing video. Great learning exper ience. Thanks> Brock for the link.> > Randy Dettmer=2C AIA> 680F/N6253X> > Dettmer Architecture> 663 Hill Street> San Luis Obispo=2C CA 93405> 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865> www.dettmerarchitecture.com> > -----Original Mess age-----> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-co mmander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber> Sent: Sunday =2C February 15=2C 2009 1:35 PM> To: commander-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > > It's a scary video:> http://vide o.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946> > The ice warning placa rd in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every time> I saw it.> > ----- Original Message-----> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on b ehalf of Robert S.> Randazzo> Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM> To: commander-l ist@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > Don/Nic o-> > > > Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airpl anes=2C and> the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to preven t the> condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get> that condition.> > > > I've got a few thousand hours flying turbopr ops and probably more than 100> approaches into KBUF- about half in crap we ather. I've never seen ice build> more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms> the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice=2C both on> flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able> to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB> reports- it seems this crew saw just s uch a phenomenon- and was in the> process of assessing it when cleared for the approach.> > > > There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-pl ane stalls on account> of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'l l keep looking=2C as the> lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots .) At our line=2C we were> required to watch this video as part of our trai ning- and it gives some> fantastic data on how to detect and manage an inci pient tail-plane stall> condition on account of ice. One lesson you take aw ay from this video is> that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing> stall=2C you will lose control of the airplane.> > > > This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to > combat the tail-plane stall=2C and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys> no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation=2C espec ially for> larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level.> > > > This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were o nly just> becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best effo rts. Makes> you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this ex act scenario> but through luck or providence were able to come out the othe r end.> > > > The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions mus t have been> truly unusual. > > > > Be careful out there=2C guys.> > > > Ro bert S. Randazzo> > N414C> > > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronic s.com> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dong irod> Sent: Saturday=2C February 14=2C 2009 10:18 PM> To: commander-list@ma tronics.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > > > Nico=2C > > > > I know very little about that airplane=2C but I would think it would have some> kind of flap asymmetry built into it=2C everything I flew comme rcially did. I> am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out=2C> they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as> previously reported and that the stall warning and stick push er were going> off.> > > > But it does makes us aware of how fragile life i s=2C they are in my prayers.> > > > Don> > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: nico css > > To: commander-list@ma tronics.com > > Sent: Sunday=2C February 15=2C 2009 12:17 AM> > Subject: Co mmander-List: Crash in Buffalo> > > > We don't know exactly what happened t o that flight=2C but from the information> trickling out of the press confe rences and the news media=2C one may conclude> that the plane violently rol led over when the flaps were lowered. It appears> to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly> down) almost in the opposit e direction of the flight=2C which makes one think> that it rolled and yawe d when the flaps deployed unevenly.> > > > Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps> during severe ice buildup for thi s exact reason. Sad chain of events=2C> though.> > > > We hold those who mo urn in our thoughts and prayers. > > > > Nico> > > > > > > > href="http:/ /www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic> s.com/Nav igator?Commander-List> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.com> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.mat ========================> _ ==> > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:17 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Hi All, John Towner is not able to post messages on the chatlist, but can read the postings. He has said it's OK to pass on the following: "When we did our TKS icing certification on our Commanders in 1993-94 FAA engineering had us do "tailplane stall analysis". To explain, the FAA has an internal "memorandum" on the subject and basically there have been many "tailplane stall" accidents over the years (the most notable that probably everyone remembers was the ATR commuter accident going into ORD). Basically "KIS" trying to keep it simple what happens with t-tail aircraft when there is just a very small trace of ice on the horizontal tail and the aircraft is descending as it levels off the horizontal tail will stall, the aircraft will pitch down and the pilot/s will pull back and this aggravates the situation and the tail will stall and everyone knows what happens next. Most "tailplane stall" accidents occur when the aircraft is descending and levels off say at the initial approach outside the final approach fix or when the flaps are lowered. In the ORD accident the ATR was descending from 10,000 to 8,000 and lost control of the aircraft in the level off and without speculating this probably happened in Buffalo Friday. After the ORD accident my friends at FAA engineering contacted me they were considering a TKS strip for the horizontal tail, the ATR has a pneumatic boot on the horizontal tail). I remember when I flew our Lear 23 (it did not have ice protection on the horizontal stab and we could get "tailplane stall" in just the right conditions, the later Lears 24/25 series did have heated horizontal stabs) Just to let all of the Commander pilots know when we did "tailplane stall analysis" on the Commander it really did well, the FAA had us put pretend ice shapes on the horizontal tail and then we had to do zero G push overs and we could not get the Commander tail to stall. To summarize the best thing is to stay out of the ice, the worse ice I have ever been in was not forecast, ice on the wing is not a big deal, most aircraft can carry a good amount of wing ice, the killer ice forms on the bottom side of the wing and the real killer ice is the ice that forms on the horizontal tail of a t-tail aircraft. Take care and fly safe." Thanks John! Best Regards, Barry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:36 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Wouldn't it be safer to land without flaps when in doubt and deal with decelerating the aircraft once (safely) on the ground? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brock Lorber" Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:35 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo It's a scary video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946 The ice warning placard in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every time I saw it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Don/Nico- Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes, and the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get that condition. I've got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than 100 approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I've never seen ice build more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice, both on flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB reports- it seems this crew saw just such a phenomenon- and was in the process of assessing it when cleared for the approach. There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on account of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'll keep looking, as the lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots.) At our line, we were required to watch this video as part of our training- and it gives some fantastic data on how to detect and manage an incipient tail-plane stall condition on account of ice. One lesson you take away from this video is that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing stall, you will lose control of the airplane. This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation, especially for larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level. This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only just becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best efforts. Makes you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this exact scenario but through luck or providence were able to come out the other end. The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been truly unusual. Be careful out there, guys. Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo Nico, I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have some kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially did. I am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out, they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were going off. But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the information trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one may conclude that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were lowered. It appears to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which makes one think that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly. Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events, though. We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers. Nico href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.